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Clark: Understanding "over the top" and "casting"

dennis clark over the top casting

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#1 zakkozuchowski

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:15 AM

Posted Image

Understanding "over the top" and "casting"

By Dennis Clark

GolfWRX Contributor

"I know I cast the club, I just cannot stop doing it."

That's one of the most common things I hear on the lesson tee. So let's talk about why golfers think this is so prevalent, and see if casting it is what they think it is. Two definitions are in order if we are to understand the dynamic here. "Over the top" and "casting."

Over the top: During the downswing, a movement of the upper body (particularly the shoulders and arms), in which there is a distict movement OUT, not down.

Casting: The premature uncocking of the wrists or straightening of the angle formed by the left arm and the club from the top of the swing. It is an action of the hands and arms, not the body.

These are two VERY dissimilar motions and you will need to understand them to change them -- if that is your goal.  I'll explain this in a minute.

A high percentage of golfers slice. They do so because the clubface is open relative to the true path of their swing. And every time they do, they are very likely to try and start the next shot off to the left in order to play the slice. It is as instinctive as a blink -- slice and you will aim or swing left, no questions asked (for a right handed player). When this happens, the player is starting out and above the dynamic plane, or "over the top." Now here's where it gets interesting... This is also quite often the CAUSE of "casting."

Every inch or millisecond spent going OUT is time or space NOT going down. So an over-the-top motion MUST be associated with a casting motion, OR the bottom of the swing arc will be so far in front of the golf ball that the player will not make  solid contact. They'll likely hit a half-topped skull at best and shank at worst.

Try to "lag" an over the top motion, and I guarantee that if the golf ball is not 6 inches in front of your left foot you won't even hit it (I've seen this with good and bad players). Ideally, the bottom of the swing arc is under the left arm pit. So if the left arm pit is moving out and forward, the bottom of the swing has been moved too far up, and you BETTER let it go! Every bit a golfer goes out, the club must start getting in line with the left arm that much earlier.  This is why I said in another article MOST golfers cannot release it too soon, becasue MOST golfers come over the top. Is this ideal? Maybe not, but it IS compatible.

When a player gets to the top of his or her backswing, there has to be a lowering of the arms and club unit. In The Plane Truth about Swings and Things we discussed that some golfers come down (the two planers) more than others (the one planers). This is because the arms and club are more over them and less behind them. But all golfers have to come down sometime, that's obvious.

I teach a lot of golfers to learn to release and get their arms and club down FIRST. When and if they start sticking it in the gound or hitting big hooks, then I start working on the rotation of the body on the downswing. TURN-SWING-TURN is a great sequence for "over the top."

I said earlier you can correct this if it be your goal. By that, I mean there is nothing wrong with a little ouside swing path if the face is slightly open and the release is timed for that move. Most of my tournament players love a baby fade; they aim or swing a bit left to produce an open face. It is my considered opinion that MOST golfers are too concerned with "getting through it" or "getting to their left side" at the expense of not bringing the club with them. If many newer players could learn to hit the ball with their back still at the target and started drawing/hooking the ball, the fade would go away and so would "over the top".

This is an area many golfers struggle with mightily. If you are an over the topper, and playing even a reasonable level of golf, you are also a slightly early releaser. So your correction is twofold: getting more to the inside AND getting a little later with your release. It's a tall order, but can be done.

I am NOT a method teacher but I have seen FAR more students NOT swing the arms and club than I have seen not "get through it." I'm going to wager that if I could measure a practice swing against a real swing, I would see 10 MPH more speed in the practice swing! Why? Well, if I know I better start the ball to the left, the body opens first, the arms come way too late and voila, a golfer swings slower.

So just as my other articles suggest, learn to release the club and swing the arms freely. We can turn you through later.


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#2 russc

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

At its simplest,an OTT move starts with a spin of the shoulders.If a golfer's right shoulder starts down vertically instead there will  no OTT. Obviously this should not be done in isloation and is hardly the only part of a proper downswing

#3 Dennis Clark

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:19 PM

interesting photo of sir chuck; notice no blur to the club...becasue its in a STOPPED position:)

Edited by Woodlands2, 21 December 2012 - 12:19 PM.


#4 Dennis Clark

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:57 PM

View Postrussc, on 21 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

At its simplest,an OTT move starts with a spin of the shoulders.If a golfer's right shoulder starts down vertically instead there will  no OTT. Obviously this should not be done in isloation and is hardly the only part of a proper downswing

agreed.  and if he does, less likely to "cast".

#5 russc

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

Dennis
Just as humorous interlude ,how would you change Mr Barkley's swing.I   think that  it is mission impossible.


#6 gators78

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:17 PM

View Postrussc, on 21 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Dennis
Just as humorous interlude ,how would you change Mr Barkley's swing.I   think that  it is mission impossible.

What Hank should've done is buy Chuck a set of left handed clubs.

#7 Dennis Clark

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:25 PM

View Postrussc, on 21 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Dennis
Just as humorous interlude ,how would you change Mr Barkley's swing.I   think that  it is mission impossible.

funny story...back in the late 80's maybe early 90's i gave him a lesson in Atlantic City.  That pause was not nearly as bad as it is now.  AND it was at the TOP, not half way way down!  i dont with Charles, really good dude but oddest damn move I've ever seen.  If it was physical we could do something but i think its in the synapses somewhere...WAY too good an athlete for that.  For The steepness I'd put him on a side hill WAY above his feet for about a month.  Thx

#8 Dennis Clark

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

View Postgators78, on 21 December 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

View Postrussc, on 21 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Dennis
Just as humorous interlude ,how would you change Mr Barkley's swing.I   think that  it is mission impossible.

What Hank should've done is buy Chuck a set of left handed clubs.

LOL

#9 Dennis Clark

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:34 PM

View Postgators78, on 21 December 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

View Postrussc, on 21 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Dennis
Just as humorous interlude ,how would you change Mr Barkley's swing.I   think that  it is mission impossible.

What Hank should've done is buy Chuck a set of left handed clubs.

I had a guy years ago who was flat horrible.  He came with brand new clubs, bag, shoes the whole bit and literally could not hit it in the ocean from the beach...LOng story short, he was a high roller and the casino had footed the bill for the whole set.  As soon as I saw him swing i knew he was left handed, at least he did something leftie.  So i asked him.  He said yes he was totally left handed, but "only golfed rightie."  I went in, got him an old bag room left handed 7-iron and I'll be damned, he started RIPPING IT!  Back went the whole new set, and, no wait for it...The Casino paid for a whole new left handed set!!!  Serious as a heart attack!

#10 dereckbc

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostWoodlands2, on 21 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

interesting photo of sir chuck; notice no blur to the club...becasue its in a STOPPED position:)

Not so sure about that. Note his muscles are tense and I can see a slight bend in the shaft. My guess with the bright sun conditions it is full motion with very fast shutter speed.


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#11 Dennis Clark

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

View Postdereckbc, on 21 December 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

View PostWoodlands2, on 21 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

interesting photo of sir chuck; notice no blur to the club...becasue its in a STOPPED position:)

Not so sure about that. Note his muscles are tense and I can see a slight bend in the shaft. My guess with the bright sun conditions it is full motion with very fast shutter speed.

it would need no high speed to catch CB at that point, there is NO speed.  If he got rid of some of the steep, i think he'd get rid of SOME of the pause...but like Russ said, it might be too late.  I'd like one shot at him though

Edited by Woodlands2, 21 December 2012 - 03:56 PM.


#12 Bingo1976

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

OTT is often caused by the takeaway. It's quite often a response to an inside backswing, where the golfer is forced to correct by casting a figure of eight, outside to in. For me, I've worked on feeling laid off at the top with my hands which seems to make it a lot easier to drop down into the slot. Clearly, there is a physical conditioning element to this as well, but I don't think Sir Charles has that excuse!

#13 Lburglefty

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:33 PM

I just want to say that I think this is a very good article. There are a lot of good players who come "over the top". Bruce Lietzke, Craig Stadler and Brendan DeJong are a few examples that come to mind. All of them seem to play a pull-cut on every shot, which is not a bad shot at all (I say "seem" because they are/were professional golfers and I'm sure they could move the ball the other way if absolutely necessary). I particularly like how you separate ott and casting. I've never seen a really good golfer who casts the club (I'm generalizing, someone somewhere probably is talented enough to get away with it). But I have fought ott all my life. I would consider myself an above average golfer (2-3 handicap), so I know first hand ott is not ideal. But a golfer can overcome it. I agree with your point, though, most need to learn to drop the hands a couple of inches before they start to rotate.

This is totally irrelevant, but there are a lot of very accomplished teachers that frequent this site. I would love to read the different ways that would address a golfer like Charles Barkley. Maybe that's a new thread idea.

#14 Dennis Clark

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

View PostBingo1976, on 21 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

OTT is often caused by the takeaway. It's quite often a response to an inside backswing, where the golfer is forced to correct by casting a figure of eight, outside to in. For me, I've worked on feeling laid off at the top with my hands which seems to make it a lot easier to drop down into the slot. Clearly, there is a physical conditioning element to this as well, but I don't think Sir Charles has that excuse!

you get the ray Floy's and Bruce Lietzke's of the world who come over the backswing but not over the plane.  Bobby Jones, Sam Snead,, Palmer some geat players have sucked it inside and learned to loop over it, but thats not "over the top".

#15 N2N2

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostWoodlands2, on 22 December 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

View PostBingo1976, on 21 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

OTT is often caused by the takeaway. It's quite often a response to an inside backswing, where the golfer is forced to correct by casting a figure of eight, outside to in. For me, I've worked on feeling laid off at the top with my hands which seems to make it a lot easier to drop down into the slot. Clearly, there is a physical conditioning element to this as well, but I don't think Sir Charles has that excuse!

you get the ray Floy's and Bruce Lietzke's of the world who come over the backswing but not over the plane.  Bobby Jones, Sam Snead,, Palmer some geat players have sucked it inside and learned to loop over it, but thats not "over the top".

Woodlands2 - +1. I agree. On different note, with the understanding every person is different what are your thoughts on helping someone eliminate casting and early releases? Have you ever helped a low digit player with really strong body positions but often let the wrist **** go on downswing/ early release? Merry Xmas.


#16 Vince.Cole

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:30 PM

What would be some good drills to fix this issue?

Would aiming more right of the target instead of left help the club come from the inside more and help stop the casting/over the top move?

Thanks and great article.

#17 thekru

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:32 PM

View Postzakkozuchowski, on 21 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Posted Image

Understanding "over the top" and "casting"

By Dennis Clark

GolfWRX Contributor

"I know I cast the club, I just cannot stop doing it."

That's one of the most common things I hear on the lesson tee. So let's talk about why golfers think this is so prevalent, and see if casting it is what they think it is. Two definitions are in order if we are to understand the dynamic here. "Over the top" and "casting."

Over the top: During the downswing, a movement of the upper body (particularly the shoulders and arms), in which there is a distict movement OUT, not down.

Casting: The premature uncocking of the wrists or straightening of the angle formed by the left arm and the club from the top of the swing. It is an action of the hands and arms, not the body.

These are two VERY dissimilar motions and you will need to understand them to change them -- if that is your goal.  I'll explain this in a minute.

A high percentage of golfers slice. They do so because the clubface is open relative to the true path of their swing. And every time they do, they are very likely to try and start the next shot off to the left in order to play the slice. It is as instinctive as a blink -- slice and you will aim or swing left, no questions asked (for a right handed player). When this happens, the player is starting out and above the dynamic plane, or "over the top." Now here's where it gets interesting... This is also quite often the CAUSE of "casting."

Every inch or millisecond spent going OUT is time or space NOT going down. So an over-the-top motion MUST be associated with a casting motion, OR the bottom of the swing arc will be so far in front of the golf ball that the player will not make  solid contact. They'll likely hit a half-topped skull at best and shank at worst.

Try to "lag" an over the top motion, and I guarantee that if the golf ball is not 6 inches in front of your left foot you won't even hit it (I've seen this with good and bad players). Ideally, the bottom of the swing arc is under the left arm pit. So if the left arm pit is moving out and forward, the bottom of the swing has been moved too far up, and you BETTER let it go! Every bit a golfer goes out, the club must start getting in line with the left arm that much earlier.  This is why I said in another article MOST golfers cannot release it too soon, becasue MOST golfers come over the top. Is this ideal? Maybe not, but it IS compatible.

When a player gets to the top of his or her backswing, there has to be a lowering of the arms and club unit. In The Plane Truth about Swings and Things we discussed that some golfers come down (the two planers) more than others (the one planers). This is because the arms and club are more over them and less behind them. But all golfers have to come down sometime, that's obvious.

I teach a lot of golfers to learn to release and get their arms and club down FIRST. When and if they start sticking it in the gound or hitting big hooks, then I start working on the rotation of the body on the downswing. TURN-SWING-TURN is a great sequence for "over the top."

I said earlier you can correct this if it be your goal. By that, I mean there is nothing wrong with a little ouside swing path if the face is slightly open and the release is timed for that move. Most of my tournament players love a baby fade; they aim or swing a bit left to produce an open face. It is my considered opinion that MOST golfers are too concerned with "getting through it" or "getting to their left side" at the expense of not bringing the club with them. If many newer players could learn to hit the ball with their back still at the target and started drawing/hooking the ball, the fade would go away and so would "over the top".

This is an area many golfers struggle with mightily. If you are an over the topper, and playing even a reasonable level of golf, you are also a slightly early releaser. So your correction is twofold: getting more to the inside AND getting a little later with your release. It's a tall order, but can be done.

I am NOT a method teacher but I have seen FAR more students NOT swing the arms and club than I have seen not "get through it." I'm going to wager that if I could measure a practice swing against a real swing, I would see 10 MPH more speed in the practice swing! Why? Well, if I know I better start the ball to the left, the body opens first, the arms come way too late and voila, a golfer swings slower.

So just as my other articles suggest, learn to release the club and swing the arms freely. We can turn you through later.

I find that part of your article interesting (Hitting with your back to the target).  Isn't this what a lot of people would call a 'hands and arm' swing?  It seems any instructor that would even encourage this type of action these days would be heavily critisized.  This seems very 'old school' and is the reason 'handicaps have not gone down in years'!!

I am not saying I disagree with it at all.  I actually try to hit balls like this myself when my path is getting steep and too much out to in.  Keep the body quiet and let the arms swing then slowly work the body into the movement.  It was good to hear a top teacher put this out there.

Edited by thekru, 24 December 2012 - 04:33 PM.


#18 Dennis Clark

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

View Postrianco, on 24 December 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

What would be some good drills to fix this issue?

Would aiming more right of the target instead of left help the club come from the inside more and help stop the casting/over the top move?

Thanks and great article.
  

There are several things you could try but few have any lasting effect until You learn to hook the ball. I teach a hook to get rid of OTT. Thx for reply

#19 Dennis Clark

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 08:31 PM

View Postthekru, on 24 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

View Postzakkozuchowski, on 21 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Posted Image

Understanding "over the top" and "casting"

By Dennis Clark

GolfWRX Contributor

"I know I cast the club, I just cannot stop doing it."

That's one of the most common things I hear on the lesson tee. So let's talk about why golfers think this is so prevalent, and see if casting it is what they think it is. Two definitions are in order if we are to understand the dynamic here. "Over the top" and "casting."

Over the top: During the downswing, a movement of the upper body (particularly the shoulders and arms), in which there is a distict movement OUT, not down.

Casting: The premature uncocking of the wrists or straightening of the angle formed by the left arm and the club from the top of the swing. It is an action of the hands and arms, not the body.

These are two VERY dissimilar motions and you will need to understand them to change them -- if that is your goal.  I'll explain this in a minute.

A high percentage of golfers slice. They do so because the clubface is open relative to the true path of their swing. And every time they do, they are very likely to try and start the next shot off to the left in order to play the slice. It is as instinctive as a blink -- slice and you will aim or swing left, no questions asked (for a right handed player). When this happens, the player is starting out and above the dynamic plane, or "over the top." Now here's where it gets interesting... This is also quite often the CAUSE of "casting."

Every inch or millisecond spent going OUT is time or space NOT going down. So an over-the-top motion MUST be associated with a casting motion, OR the bottom of the swing arc will be so far in front of the golf ball that the player will not make  solid contact. They'll likely hit a half-topped skull at best and shank at worst.

Try to "lag" an over the top motion, and I guarantee that if the golf ball is not 6 inches in front of your left foot you won't even hit it (I've seen this with good and bad players). Ideally, the bottom of the swing arc is under the left arm pit. So if the left arm pit is moving out and forward, the bottom of the swing has been moved too far up, and you BETTER let it go! Every bit a golfer goes out, the club must start getting in line with the left arm that much earlier.  This is why I said in another article MOST golfers cannot release it too soon, becasue MOST golfers come over the top. Is this ideal? Maybe not, but it IS compatible.

When a player gets to the top of his or her backswing, there has to be a lowering of the arms and club unit. In The Plane Truth about Swings and Things we discussed that some golfers come down (the two planers) more than others (the one planers). This is because the arms and club are more over them and less behind them. But all golfers have to come down sometime, that's obvious.

I teach a lot of golfers to learn to release and get their arms and club down FIRST. When and if they start sticking it in the gound or hitting big hooks, then I start working on the rotation of the body on the downswing. TURN-SWING-TURN is a great sequence for "over the top."

I said earlier you can correct this if it be your goal. By that, I mean there is nothing wrong with a little ouside swing path if the face is slightly open and the release is timed for that move. Most of my tournament players love a baby fade; they aim or swing a bit left to produce an open face. It is my considered opinion that MOST golfers are too concerned with "getting through it" or "getting to their left side" at the expense of not bringing the club with them. If many newer players could learn to hit the ball with their back still at the target and started drawing/hooking the ball, the fade would go away and so would "over the top".

This is an area many golfers struggle with mightily. If you are an over the topper, and playing even a reasonable level of golf, you are also a slightly early releaser. So your correction is twofold: getting more to the inside AND getting a little later with your release. It's a tall order, but can be done.

I am NOT a method teacher but I have seen FAR more students NOT swing the arms and club than I have seen not "get through it." I'm going to wager that if I could measure a practice swing against a real swing, I would see 10 MPH more speed in the practice swing! Why? Well, if I know I better start the ball to the left, the body opens first, the arms come way too late and voila, a golfer swings slower.

So just as my other articles suggest, learn to release the club and swing the arms freely. We can turn you through later.

I find that part of your article interesting (Hitting with your back to the target).  Isn't this what a lot of people would call a 'hands and arm' swing?  It seems any instructor that would even encourage this type of action these days would be heavily critisized.  This seems very 'old school' and is the reason 'handicaps have not gone down in years'!!

I am not saying I disagree with it at all.  I actually try to hit balls like this myself when my path is getting steep and too much out to in.  Keep the body quiet and let the arms swing then slowly work the body into the movement.  It was good to hear a top teacher put this out there.

Thx for comments. Yes old school, new school, and future school!  Swing the arms and club!  Happy holidays. DC

#20 scotthayes74

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:41 PM

View PostWoodlands2, on 24 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

View Postrianco, on 24 December 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

What would be some good drills to fix this issue?

Would aiming more right of the target instead of left help the club come from the inside more and help stop the casting/over the top move?

Thanks and great article.
  

There are several things you could try but few have any lasting effect until You learn to hook the ball. I teach a hook to get rid of OTT. Thx for reply

More info please Dennis. Ill do anything or pay anything for a cure. Point me in the right direction please. I can hook but its all hands when i do.


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#21 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:15 AM

This topic is exactly what i'm currently working on after realizing i was slightly on a out to in clubface path. was hitting weak fades and trying to concentrate on turning hips instead of swaying. this was causing an upper body turn instead of hips bumping forward and then turning. working in the simulator, i started dropping my hands and feeling like i was playing a draw, but it was showing a square to just slight in to out path. i instantly started gaining carry yards. 9i went from <140 to 150 avg.

any drills to ingrain the drop of hands and bump of hips so the upper body doesnt turn over the top.

also, by coming over the top, is it common that i was losing any lag and causing an early release. felt that once i dropped to inside and then turned that i had more lag and better contact.

Edited by HoosierMizuno, 31 December 2012 - 12:18 AM.

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#22 tnord

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:25 PM

i've always fought ott/casting and play decently (5 index). for my swing.....at first i always looked at it as a result of being across the line at the top....which is sortof true...but often times i'm across the line at the top because i've brought the club back too far to the inside and do the loop back/figure 8 on the downswing.  that has a tendency to happen when i'm focusing on opening the clubface on the backswing. (an exerpt from Penick's Little Red Book comes to mind...."if i tell you to take some asperin don't take the whole bottle!") one of my playing partners was observant enough to tell me that i was "looping it" but didn't know enough about the swing to elaborate more than that.  it wasn't until i took some lessons from some good teaching pros and saw myself doing it on video i understood it.

keeping the clubhead outside the hands on takeaway...and maybe even pushing it slightly away from my body to start seems to help get the proper feeling back.  took me 100 balls yesterday to figure out why my swing felt like dump....but that was it.
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#23 Bingo1976

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:04 AM

There is a TPI video on youtube that shows Duffner with his hands behind the ball at address to stop him taking the club inside - might be worth a try?

#24 PingG10guy

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostWoodlands2, on 21 December 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

View Postrussc, on 21 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

At its simplest,an OTT move starts with a spin of the shoulders.If a golfer's right shoulder starts down vertically instead there will  no OTT. Obviously this should not be done in isloation and is hardly the only part of a proper downswing

agreed.  and if he does, less likely to "cast".

If the right shoulder goes straight down vertically(from down the line) then the right arm will go down vertically; so will the handle...and the club shaft will have a steepening influence.  Theres got to be a better way to say whatever it is you're trying to say

#25 RBImGuy

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

and one got to ask why so many has trouble learning the golf swing and end up OTT or casting or any other issue.
I have found that current teachings has a lot to ask for.

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#26 Dennis Clark

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:25 PM

View Postscotthayes74, on 30 December 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostWoodlands2, on 24 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

View Postrianco, on 24 December 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

What would be some good drills to fix this issue?

Would aiming more right of the target instead of left help the club come from the inside more and help stop the casting/over the top move?

Thanks and great article.
  

There are several things you could try but few have any lasting effect until You learn to hook the ball. I teach a hook to get rid of OTT. Thx for reply

More info please Dennis. Ill do anything or pay anything for a cure. Point me in the right direction please. I can hook but its all hands when i do.

Well sight unseen, I could offer a few drills but since you've asked, send me a video, and I'll be happy to take a look.

#27 Dennis Clark

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostHoosierMizuno, on 31 December 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

This topic is exactly what i'm currently working on after realizing i was slightly on a out to in clubface path. was hitting weak fades and trying to concentrate on turning hips instead of swaying. this was causing an upper body turn instead of hips bumping forward and then turning. working in the simulator, i started dropping my hands and feeling like i was playing a draw, but it was showing a square to just slight in to out path. i instantly started gaining carry yards. 9i went from <140 to 150 avg.

any drills to ingrain the drop of hands and bump of hips so the upper body doesnt turn over the top.

also, by coming over the top, is it common that i was losing any lag and causing an early release. felt that once i dropped to inside and then turned that i had more lag and better contact.

you got the idea; one thing to try is an extra strong grip for a while; this will cause a hook and you may instictively start lowering the right shoulder and the arms and club from the top.  This works and its a great off-season drill

#28 Dennis Clark

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:34 PM

Again, as with all my teaching these are suggestions; if they work, great- if not, don't do them.  I share with all of you what I have witnessed over 30 years and 30/35,000 lessons; but if you know a better way, good on ya mate :)

Edited by Woodlands2, 03 January 2013 - 11:38 PM.


#29 KMeloney

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:03 AM

View PostPingG10guy, on 03 January 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

If the right shoulder goes straight down vertically(from down the line) then the right arm will go down vertically; so will the handle...and the club shaft will have a steepening influence.

Huh? I see it as the complete opposite. If you drop your right shoulder way down, the shaft follows. If you just freeze at the top of your backswing, and then just drop your right shoulder down while keeping your left shoulder high, you completely shallow out the shaft. Now, if you drop your right shoulder down by actually moving it forward and down (toward the target line), then that's like making the same over-the-top move that's being discussed here.

#30 russc

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostPingG10guy, on 03 January 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

View PostWoodlands2, on 21 December 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

View Postrussc, on 21 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

At its simplest,an OTT move starts with a spin of the shoulders.If a golfer's right shoulder starts down vertically instead there will  no OTT. Obviously this should not be done in isloation and is hardly the only part of a proper downswing

agreed.  and if he does, less likely to "cast".

If the right shoulder goes straight down vertically(from down the line) then the right arm will go down vertically; so will the handle...and the club shaft will have a steepening influence.  Theres got to be a better way to say whatever it is you're trying to say
OTT can be simply defined as starting  your downswing with a spin of the shoulders.As i said in my post starting the shoulder down is hardly the only part of the proper downswing .There are a number of things that happen in a proper downswing,some  of which are reflex reactions to the proper backswing.I was  addressing the OTT move.To tell a golfer that he needs to start down with a turn  of the left  hip ,which also involves lateral motion to establish his left pivot point over his left heel /ankle while at about the same time slotting the club via external rotation of the right shoulder  is going to neither help his OTT move nor achieve the proper downswing.Golfers who are OTT must learn the dog paddle before they learn the crawl.
I hope that you are hitting the ball well ,since you have moved more towards a S+T motion .One thing that  i really do not like is placing a ball under your right armpit .as it almost inevitably reduces width going back, as i mentioned in my last response to you

Edited by russc, 04 January 2013 - 04:22 PM.


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