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To hip slide or not to hip slide


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#1 thomas55

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

This has been bugging me this past summer. Many books and DVDs state that you should start your downswing with a small hip slide toward the target. Some others say don't slide your hips just turn them.
The slide feels OK to me with irons. I'm working on ball contact. I hit the ball in the center of the club face pretty well but I don't take much of a divot. I also got a Tour Striker that feels pretty good to me I'm getting a feel for it. The inventor of that product wants too see that hip slide. It feels strange with a driver still. I was reading about Alvaro Quiros who leads the European Tour in Driving he says rotate, don't slide. He is not the only one where I read or seen this.  So I'm trying to work on one swing feel and I'm not sure what to do. That slide feels made for irons but messes with my head with the driver and 3 wood. Do I try to keep it and work through it or just do it with irons and not with driver? That seems wrong to me as well I think I should just do one or the other.


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#2 HappyGolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM

Firstly are you Alvaro Quiros?

Secondly put your mouse cursor on his left hip and see what happens....



Here's another one.. watch from 10mins onwards.. with commentary



With the driver if you slide or rotate you're probably not going to get to the ball anyway as it's closer to your front foot, and your swingplane SHOULD be flatter than that of an iron. you just have to tweak the ball position (and/or tee height) according to whether your trying to hit up on the ball or more level. Don't be afraid to experiment or hit a few duff shots in the process.

Edited by HappyGolf, 19 December 2012 - 08:54 PM.


#3 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

View Postthomas55, on 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

This has been bugging me this past summer. Many books and DVDs state that you should start your downswing with a small hip slide toward the target. Some others say don't slide your hips just turn them.
The slide feels OK to me with irons. I'm working on ball contact. I hit the ball in the center of the club face pretty well but I don't take much of a divot. I also got a Tour Striker that feels pretty good to me I'm getting a feel for it. The inventor of that product wants too see that hip slide. It feels strange with a driver still. I was reading about Alvaro Quiros who leads the European Tour in Driving he says rotate, don't slide. He is not the only one where I read or seen this.  So I'm trying to work on one swing feel and I'm not sure what to do. That slide feels made for irons but messes with my head with the driver and 3 wood. Do I try to keep it and work through it or just do it with irons and not with driver? That seems wrong to me as well I think I should just do one or the other.

I'm with happy.  The hips need to move laterally so the weight gets to the front side and gives the upper body time to sync up.

If you just turn, the right elbow is likely to get stuck behind the right hip after a "spin out."

I have a saying...there is no such thing as a slide if you are turning.
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#4 JPGolf FL

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

This is what I would consider a NO slide swing. There is a difference between a "slide" and a lateral movement. Start it from the beginning but at the 2:00 mark it pretty well defines Monte's saying, you cant slide if you are turning.


Edited by thesponge, 19 December 2012 - 09:14 PM.


#5 HappyGolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:


I have a saying...there is no such thing as a slide if you are turning.

USED TO HAVE A SAYING........... I've just stolen it  :pimp:


#6 thomas55

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:22 PM

Hmmm...last time I looked in the mirror I didn't see  Alvaro Quiros.  To tell the truth I have never heard of him before. So watching him hit with an iron he is moving towards the target wit his hips.

#7 thomas55

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

Lateral movement is a better term than slide. I guess that's what I talking about. I'm not sure why he says he just turns with no lateral movement (Alvaro Quiros) when he clearly is moving lateraly at least with irons. There are a number of things he does in his swing that I do. My backswing is very much like that but I try to keep my back straighter and chin up more. Rushing my downswing is my biggest sin. I'm really trying to focus more on my lower body and turn and this lateral movement thing. It sounds to me like maybe it's good to do with irons but not to worry about is so much with driver and woods.

#8 sanjaygolf

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

I think Quiros says he doesn't slide because for him and other good golfers the rotate part already has the lateral movement implied intrinsically. If you told a beginner golfer to rotate on the downswing they would most likely hang back and spin their hips. Better golfers tend to impart a more aggressive and athletic move which is a lateral movement towards the target but there are still many who forget to rotate fully.

Martin Chuck, the inventor of the Tour Striker, probably says he wants to see hip slide because the hip slide re-establishes the pivot point and the weight on the left heel. From there you can effectively hit down on the ball to compress it which is what the tour striker is trying to teach.

Long story short, rotate your hips on the downswing while moving laterally towards parallel to the target.
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#9 JPGolf FL

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

View Postsanjaygolf, on 20 December 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

I think Quiros says he doesn't slide because for him and other good golfers the rotate part already has the lateral movement implied intrinsically. If you told a beginner golfer to rotate on the downswing they would most likely hang back and spin their hips. Better golfers tend to impart a more aggressive and athletic move which is a lateral movement towards the target but there are still many who forget to rotate fully.

Martin Chuck, the inventor of the Tour Striker, probably says he wants to see hip slide because the hip slide re-establishes the pivot point and the weight on the left heel. From there you can effectively hit down on the ball to compress it which is what the tour striker is trying to teach.

Long story short, rotate your hips on the downswing while moving laterally towards parallel to the target.
IMO...There should be no effort to move laterally. If you put a tire on a wall(as if it was going to roll on the wall) and rotated it, what would happen? It would move laterally. If leverage is kept in the right leg and hip, rotation will cause a lateral movement.

#10 Cmartingolf

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

Here's some thoughts. Hope they help:


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#11 russc

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:47 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

View Postthomas55, on 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

This has been bugging me this past summer. Many books and DVDs state that you should start your downswing with a small hip slide toward the target. Some others say don't slide your hips just turn them.
The slide feels OK to me with irons. I'm working on ball contact. I hit the ball in the center of the club face pretty well but I don't take much of a divot. I also got a Tour Striker that feels pretty good to me I'm getting a feel for it. The inventor of that product wants too see that hip slide. It feels strange with a driver still. I was reading about Alvaro Quiros who leads the European Tour in Driving he says rotate, don't slide. He is not the only one where I read or seen this.  So I'm trying to work on one swing feel and I'm not sure what to do. That slide feels made for irons but messes with my head with the driver and 3 wood. Do I try to keep it and work through it or just do it with irons and not with driver? That seems wrong to me as well I think I should just do one or the other.

I'm with happy.  The hips need to move laterally so the weight gets to the front side and gives the upper body time to sync up.

If you just turn, the right elbow is likely to get stuck behind the right hip after a "spin out."

I have a saying...there is no such thing as a slide if you are turning.
I  offer you this video to illustrate Monte's point.I preface this by saying that the more than I view this swing ,the more I like it and i think that you will like it also.To understand my point you  are going to have to watch this video in slow motion.Watch his motion in transition. Notice that the gap between his legs is INCREASING  due to  lateral movement by his left leg/side.IT is important to  differentiate this lateral movement from a slide  because a slide IMO would mean that the right leg would also be moving left and the gap would not be increasing between the legs.Then after he establishes his left pivot point with this lateral movement  ,he rotates around it .When this golfer is making his lateral movement ,there may be a small amount of rotation involving some of the core muscles ,but it is largely a  lateral movement :happy:


#12 thomas55

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

This has reinforced my views on lateral movement. I saw the Martin Chuck video last winter and I have been working on it. But other golfers would say don't do it and reading some pros say they don't do it then I watch the videos and they do it !
It feels right to me with irons still trying to get a feel for it with a Driver. I really like the Tour Striker by the way.

#13 JPGolf FL

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

Watch the face on view in this video and you will see what the Shawn Clement vid I posted is describing. There are many ways to swing a club, I personally do not like any thought of lateral movement. IMO if you need to move laterally to get your weight forward, the weight is too far back. Notice how Hogan's position at the top negates the need for any lateral move with the lower body on the way down. There is lateral movement there but it is a result of the right hip staying in place and forcing the left hip back and around..


#14 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:02 AM

View Postrussc, on 20 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

View Postthomas55, on 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

This has been bugging me this past summer. Many books and DVDs state that you should start your downswing with a small hip slide toward the target. Some others say don't slide your hips just turn them.
The slide feels OK to me with irons. I'm working on ball contact. I hit the ball in the center of the club face pretty well but I don't take much of a divot. I also got a Tour Striker that feels pretty good to me I'm getting a feel for it. The inventor of that product wants too see that hip slide. It feels strange with a driver still. I was reading about Alvaro Quiros who leads the European Tour in Driving he says rotate, don't slide. He is not the only one where I read or seen this.  So I'm trying to work on one swing feel and I'm not sure what to do. That slide feels made for irons but messes with my head with the driver and 3 wood. Do I try to keep it and work through it or just do it with irons and not with driver? That seems wrong to me as well I think I should just do one or the other.

I'm with happy.  The hips need to move laterally so the weight gets to the front side and gives the upper body time to sync up.

If you just turn, the right elbow is likely to get stuck behind the right hip after a "spin out."

I have a saying...there is no such thing as a slide if you are turning.
I  offer you this video to illustrate Monte's point.I preface this by saying that the more than I view this swing ,the more I like it and i think that you will like it also.To understand my point you  are going to have to watch this video in slow motion.Watch his motion in transition. Notice that the gap between his legs is INCREASING  due to  lateral movement by his left leg/side.IT is important to  differentiate this lateral movement from a slide  because a slide IMO would mean that the right leg would also be moving left and the gap would not be increasing between the legs.Then after he establishes his left pivot point with this lateral movement  ,he rotates around it .When this golfer is making his lateral movement ,there may be a small amount of rotation involving some of the core muscles ,but it is largely a  lateral movement :happy:


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#15 thomas55

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:46 AM

So there is always some type of lateral movement and looking at the vids. of Martin Chuck and Ben Hogan one is established
early and the other is happening during hip rotation at least that's how it seems to me. It reminds me of an early golf lesson where the instructor was telling me I must establish a wrist **** very early in my backswing as my first movement and that screwed me up trying to think about that too much it was making me go off plane. I'm NOT comparing Martin Chuck to that teacher by the way.  It was one of those golf schools in a big box golf store where everything is recorded and measured and they tell you there is only one right way to swing.
I learned later that it dosen't matter where as long as it gets cocked at some point. I **** my wrists at the top
some people even ad more when they start down.  So it would seem that lateral movement should happen or will happen with every club as part of a good rotation. It's just a matter of where it happens and what feels right for a particular player as long as it is a fluid movement. In fact if you are loose and swinging relaxed I don't think you could stop yourself from some lateral movement.


#16 russc

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 December 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

View Postrussc, on 20 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 19 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

View Postthomas55, on 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

This has been bugging me this past summer. Many books and DVDs state that you should start your downswing with a small hip slide toward the target. Some others say don't slide your hips just turn them.
The slide feels OK to me with irons. I'm working on ball contact. I hit the ball in the center of the club face pretty well but I don't take much of a divot. I also got a Tour Striker that feels pretty good to me I'm getting a feel for it. The inventor of that product wants too see that hip slide. It feels strange with a driver still. I was reading about Alvaro Quiros who leads the European Tour in Driving he says rotate, don't slide. He is not the only one where I read or seen this.  So I'm trying to work on one swing feel and I'm not sure what to do. That slide feels made for irons but messes with my head with the driver and 3 wood. Do I try to keep it and work through it or just do it with irons and not with driver? That seems wrong to me as well I think I should just do one or the other.

I'm with happy.  The hips need to move laterally so the weight gets to the front side and gives the upper body time to sync up.

If you just turn, the right elbow is likely to get stuck behind the right hip after a "spin out."

I have a saying...there is no such thing as a slide if you are turning.
I  offer you this video to illustrate Monte's point.I preface this by saying that the more than I view this swing ,the more I like it and i think that you will like it also.To understand my point you  are going to have to watch this video in slow motion.Watch his motion in transition. Notice that the gap between his legs is INCREASING  due to  lateral movement by his left leg/side.IT is important to  differentiate this lateral movement from a slide  because a slide IMO would mean that the right leg would also be moving left and the gap would not be increasing between the legs.Then after he establishes his left pivot point with this lateral movement  ,he rotates around it .When this golfer is making his lateral movement ,there may be a small amount of rotation involving some of the core muscles ,but it is largely a  lateral movement :happy:


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#17 russc

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

View Postthomas55, on 21 December 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

So there is always some type of lateral movement and looking at the vids. of Martin Chuck and Ben Hogan one is established
early and the other is happening during hip rotation at least that's how it seems to me. It reminds me of an early golf lesson where the instructor was telling me I must establish a wrist **** very early in my backswing as my first movement and that screwed me up trying to think about that too much it was making me go off plane. I'm NOT comparing Martin Chuck to that teacher by the way.  It was one of those golf schools in a big box golf store where everything is recorded and measured and they tell you there is only one right way to swing.
I learned later that it dosen't matter where as long as it gets cocked at some point. I **** my wrists at the top
some people even ad more when they start down.  So it would seem that lateral movement should happen or will happen with every club as part of a good rotation. It's just a matter of where it happens and what feels right for a particular player as long as it is a fluid movement. In fact if you are loose and swinging relaxed I don't think you could stop yourself from some lateral movement.
i would like to clarify   your last few lines.The purpose of lateral movement is to establish your left point around which  you can then rotate.If a golfer sets up left ,there is going to be very little discernable movement ;the lateral motion will hidden in the rotation.Lateral motion should happen in transition.The later that it happens the less potential rotation can occur

#18 thomas55

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

On pitch shots and chips I try to set up with my weight left so I don't feel much lateral movement. On full shots it sounds like your saying lateral movement should happen early to get full or maybe a better word  free rotation.

#19 russc

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:19 PM

View Postthomas55, on 21 December 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

On pitch shots and chips I try to set up with my weight left so I don't feel much lateral movement. On full shots it sounds like your saying lateral movement should happen early to get full or maybe a better word  free rotation.

For those who setup in a reverse K.there is really very little  distance  to get to that left pivot point ,so consequently very little discernible lateral movement  even with full wedges .
Yes

Edited by russc, 21 December 2012 - 01:22 PM.


#20 thomas55

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

One thing you said "Lateral motion should happen in transition". Help me with that idea a little bit. Is your first movement from the top of your backswing a lateral shift? To me this sounds like one of the key points in the swing.It sounds like the sooner you do a lateral shift would mean a more downward strike on the ball as well?


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#21 russc

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:24 PM

The driver is the ideal club to illustrate my points because  the lateral movement is discernible for most golfers
The transition is the second most important part of the swing after impact.It is the part of the swing that requires the most athleticism and the part   that can make or break a swing.As i mentioned previously, the initial  movement  to establish  your left pivot point over your left heel /ankle,  while primarily lateral also contains some rotational components with it.Once a golfer establishes his left pivot point any further lateral movement is unnecessary and will reduce the amount of the  more powerful rotational movement
For many top touring pros this initial lateral movement with the lower body happens as the upper body is still winding up.Whether you want to call it part of the backswing or part of the downswing does not matter.The question  is how to start  everything in motion.Some people feel as though it  is started by movement in the hips,others think that it is started by the left knee rerotating ,while others think that is is starts by pressuring your left heel.The argument   for the left heel can be most easily seen with golfers who lift their left heel going back . Look at the video from the 1960's .Different feels for different golfers.Shortly after the transition is initiated the right elbow moves down and forward.This is the right elbow move that Mr Pennick referred to as starting the downswing and is integral to great golf swings and that Mr Hogan is emphasizing in his famous video below
Note :41-:51 in the below video


Edited by russc, 21 December 2012 - 02:35 PM.


#22 thomas55

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

That's why I brought this topic up in the first place. Lateral movement is easy to feel with irons and harder for me with driver.
So I think I was overdoing it with driver to get that feeling and creating problems. That's why I started looking for information on
lateral shift and finding conflicting answers. Even if someone says they just rotate they are still going to have some lateral shift

#23 Golfjunkie 2010

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

View Postjgolfnymet, on 22 December 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

i used to slide like crazy and now i'm pretty much not doing it anymore - a few things that helped:

keeping the head still - think about "TURNING", not sliding.  Check what mitchell spearman says:



I really like Mitchell Spearman's stuff. There's a lot of it on the site. The more hip slide the more chance of the ball flying to the right... always my nemesis.

#24 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:45 AM

Quote

IMO...There should be no effort to move laterally. If you put a tire on a wall(as if it was going to roll on the wall) and rotated it, what would happen? It would move laterally. If leverage is kept in the right leg and hip, rotation will cause a lateral movement.
I like that idea.

#25 JPGolf FL

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:11 AM

View PostSunkTheBirdie, on 09 January 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Quote

IMO...There should be no effort to move laterally. If you put a tire on a wall(as if it was going to roll on the wall) and rotated it, what would happen? It would move laterally. If leverage is kept in the right leg and hip, rotation will cause a lateral movement.
I like that idea.
This is really effective in a hogan style back swing where the right butt cheek turns behind you and toward the target.


#26 Tanner25

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:55 PM

View PostCmartingolf, on 20 December 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Here's some thoughts. Hope they help:


One of the best videos I have seen to explain the downswing sequence. Well done, Martin. I tried it today, with little success. My question is. If you make a bad turn ( slide) going back, wd it be true
it doesn't matter what you do going forward ( slide, turn w/ the hips)? I guess this will take time to ingrain.

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#27 swingdoc80

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostGolfjunkie 2010, on 22 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

View Postjgolfnymet, on 22 December 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

i used to slide like crazy and now i'm pretty much not doing it anymore - a few things that helped:

keeping the head still - think about "TURNING", not sliding.  Check what mitchell spearman says:



I really like Mitchell Spearman's stuff. There's a lot of it on the site. The more hip slide the more chance of the ball flying to the right... always my nemesis.

Not true unfortunately, the more hip slide, the shallower the swing and the more left you get your weight the more out the club will travel. (-as long as head stays steady).  I think the bad ones can happen when people fire the hips aggressively and leave the arms behind and can't catch up.

#28 thomas55

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:33 PM

I do like the Martin Chuck vid. I saw it many months ago and really got me thinking about the lateral shift. I got a Tour Striker Pro a few months back and at first I thought I would never be able to hit it correctly. However by thinking about my lower body and keeping my arms"quiet" I can hit it pretty well. I learned that by getting things right with my lower half and weight shift. Many things take care of themselves like lag. I don't think you even need to think about lag If you are letting your lower body shift and turn correctly. Your arms are naturally pulled down and around. I do have one question. I have a Tom Watson book  and he warns not to get your hands too far forward. That's really all he says.... how do you know how to tell when they are too far forward. The Tour Striker makes me move my hands forward but how much is too much? I really work on my swing by feel I'm sure you know what I mean when you hit a great shot it "feels" right. So what would hands too far forward feel like? Would that be like blocking the ball or a push with no real feeling of releasing the club?




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