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Where should my shoulders be at impact?

Dan Carraher shoulders at impact rickie fowler hunter mahan

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#1 zakkozuchowski

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:14 PM

Posted Image

Where should my shoulders be at impact?

By Dan Carraher

GolfWRX Contributor

There is a lot of conflicting advice about whether the shoulders should be open, square, or even closed at impact. The real answer, like most things in golf, is “it depends.”

The key to shoulder position at impact is matching your pivot with your arm swing. What I see on a daily basis is players doing things that by themselves might not be wrong, but they don't fit with the rest of their pattern. Even worse is someone who tries to a make change to their golf swing by adding a piece that will do more harm than good. That’s because the piece they are trying to "fix" has to match the rest of their pattern.

So where should your shoulders be at impact? It depends on the rate at which your rear arm straightens, the location of your right elbow and the speed of your arm swing. Because people tend to understand things better when they see them we will go over some examples (all examples use a right-handed golfer).

Golfer 1

For a golfer whose left arm is deeper and more across the chest and right arm stays bent longer, the shoulders should be more open at impact. This will help the golfer’s swing move in the direction of the target.

For this golfer, the arms are moving slower, or closer to the same speed as the right shoulder. This is why their right arm stays bent longer. As the hands move closer to impact the right shoulder is also moving at a similar rate down, out and forward toward impact. This gets shoulders more open at impact.

If this golfer's shoulders were more closed, their swing direction would be too far to the right of the target and he or she would struggle with pushes and hooks. Hunter Mahan in the video below is a good example of this sort of pattern. His right arms stays bent until well after impact, allowing/forcing him to use his body to get the club out to the ball in a way that results in a fairly neutral path.

Click here to see a YouTube video of Hunter Mahan's swing (SwingVision -- down the line)

Golfer 2

In contrast, a golfer whose right arm straightens faster needs his shoulders more square at impact. This golfer's arms move faster in relation to the pivot than Golfer 1, which is why the right arm straightens faster. Golfer 2’s hands are moving toward impact at a faster rate than his right shoulder is moving down, out and forward. Because of this, Golfer 2’s shoulders will be more square/less open than the shoulders of Golfer 1. This type of golfer has the club working out toward the ball due to straightening of the right arm, and will work toward the target without having the body nearly as open to the target.

A great example of this is Ricky Fowler: Click here to see a YouTube video of Fowler's swing (down the line)

The key to understanding this is that both Golfer 1 and Golfer 2 can have the same ball flight and resultant path. They just get there two different ways.

Mahan vs. Fowler at impact

Posted Image   Posted Image

Most good golfers fall somewhere between these two extremes. Poorer golfers mix and match these patterns. Most commonly, I see slicers who open their bodies too fast with a right arm that straightens too fast. This kicks the club out past the ball and causes a path that is out-to-in, which produces deflected slices and big pulls along with shots hit off the heel and shanks. You will also see some good players with a lot of "lag" who keep their right arm bent but don't pivot enough through the ball, resulting in a path that is too in-to-out which can lead to toe shots.

When working on your impact dynamics, make sure you are adding parts that match the rest of what you're doing.  Mixing components here can lead to very poor results and frustration.


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#2 chiva

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:19 PM

Thanks Dan. Nice article.

#3 tembolo1284

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:26 PM

The more I read Dan's stuff...the more I realize I have to get off my butt and go see him. Great stuff sir.

More articles please!
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#4 iteachgolf

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

View Posttembolo1284, on 18 December 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

The more I read Dan's stuff...the more I realize I have to get off my butt and go see him. Great stuff sir.

More articles please!
Thanks guys.  And just let me know when you wanna come down. We can work something out

#5 JPGolf FL

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:09 PM

Good stuff Dan. Very helpful.


#6 Gbyeball

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

Well written and makes so much sense. This is why I tell people to take lessons because if you start adding some of this and some of that from magazine, friends etc you can end up with a mess. Just like wearing a navy blue blazer with dark brown pants. Sure you can put them together but it just won't work out well.
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#7 russc

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:12 PM

As Kellygreen analogized,touring pros are like cats who can retain their balance from extraordinary  circumstances and the rest of us are like dogs;almost no matter  what they do, touring pros , because of their off the scale athletic abilities , can hit extraordinary shots .Rickie is   an unfortunate choice  as he does a number of things in his swing which are not just different  but off the scale different( especially his backswing) but after all he is a "cat".So i think that you could illustrate your point just as well  with someone with similar impact position as Rickie but with not such an unusual swing.The problem  with really unusual swings is that they may work well ,even great for that specific individual ,but can not be duplicated.They are literally 1 in a million swings.

The amount that the shoulders is open at impact is an important factor (although obviously not the only) in determining the degree that the right arm is bent at impact.And those golfers with shoulders that are much nearer square at impact also invariably do not have their hips open very much at impact.This is what is referred to a pivot stall and Rickie is certainly guilty of this.And some golfers can hit extraordinary shot from such  s stalled position,but their are going to be  have to be much more dependent on the  timing of  straightening that right arm and flipping the clubhead ,much more dependent on timing with the small muscles of the hand,wrists and forearms.

Most of the rest of us "dogs" are good ,too good at stalling our pivots and flipping at the ball..Maybe a golfer can learn to work with this problem  and refine their flip ,but is that the way for  substantial long term improvement?Maybe yes  if you are  really  a  "cat" masquerading as as "dog" .,Much better to learn  a swing ,where the golfer never stalls anything,including his shoulders ,but especially his core .

#8 kevcarter

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

Thank you Dan. I learn something EVERY time you type.

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#9 iteachgolf

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

View Postrussc, on 18 December 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

As Kellygreen analogized,touring pros are like cats who can retain their balance from extraordinary  circumstances and the rest of us are like dogs;almost no matter  what they do, touring pros , because of their off the scale athletic abilities , can hit extraordinary shots .Rickie is   an unfortunate choice  as he does a number of things in his swing which are not just different  but off the scale different( especially his backswing) but after all he is a "cat".So i think that you could illustrate your point just as well  with someone with similar impact position as Rickie but with not such an unusual swing.The problem  with really unusual swings is that they may work well ,even great for that specific individual ,but can not be duplicated.They are literally 1 in a million swings.

The amount that the shoulders is open at impact is an important factor (although obviously not the only) in determining the degree that the right arm is bent at impact.And those golfers with shoulders that are much nearer square at impact also invariably do not have their hips open very much at impact.This is what is referred to a pivot stall and Rickie is certainly guilty of this.And some golfers can hit extraordinary shot from such  s stalled position,but their are going to be  have to be much more dependent on the  timing of  straightening that right arm and flipping the clubhead ,much more dependent on timing with the small muscles of the hand,wrists and forearms.

Most of the rest of us "dogs" are good ,too good at stalling our pivots and flipping at the ball..Maybe a golfer can learn to work with this problem  and refine their flip ,but is that the way for  substantial long term improvement?Maybe yes  if you are  really  a  "cat" masquerading as as "dog" .,Much better to learn  a swing ,where the golfer never stalls anything,including his shoulders ,but especially his core .
Sorry but going to disagree with almost all of this.  I chose him exactly because he is different.  The whole point of the article is to tailor swing changes to your individual pattern.  I specifically state is on the extreme end of the spectrum and most players fall somewhere in the middle.  

Ricky doesn't flip.  He has a pretty good amount of shaft lean at impact.  He has a higher overtaking rate. Which actually makes the path move more left and less likely to hook.  A player who keeps the right arm bent longer and has a slow overtaking rate has path moving in to out the longest and is actually more likely to both toe the ball and hook it.  His move through the ball actually helps eliminate the left side of the course.  Ricky's hips get more than 40* open at impact.  There are a TON of GREAT players with very open hips and square or relatively square shoulders.  

In EVERY good swing the hips decelerate BEFORE impact.  This is a function of the conservation of angular momentum and reaching the end of your range of motion.  The time at which they decel and the amount varies but it happens in all good swings. (Not saying its conscious).


You believe that you have found THE way to swing a club.  That's great for you.  But there is no one way to swing a club and there is no perfect.  The game of golf is played in an arena that is ever changing and in complete chaos.  The face closes at thousands of degrees per second through impact, even when you think you are holding it off.   In fact holding the face off tilts the spin axis more towards draw.  You don't understand how swings like Fowler's work and that's fine.  But the point of the article is to provide options and explain how certain components work together and how you can try to "fix" a problem that's not a problem and make is significantly worse.  A golfer needs to find what makes their swing work and keep/improve that.  It's not about looking a certain way.  If the components are matching a swing can look infinitely different ways and produce the same results.

#10 MizzyMan

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 18 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Sorry but going to disagree with almost all of this.  I chose him exactly because he is different.  The whole point of the article is to tailor swing changes to your individual pattern.  I specifically state is on the extreme end of the spectrum and most players fall somewhere in the middle.  

Ricky doesn't flip.  He has a pretty good amount of shaft lean at impact.  He has a higher overtaking rate. Which actually makes the path move more left and less likely to hook.  A player who keeps the right arm bent longer and has a slow overtaking rate has path moving in to out the longest and is actually more likely to both toe the ball and hook it.  His move through the ball actually helps eliminate the left side of the course.  Ricky's hips get more than 40* open at impact.  There are a TON of GREAT players with very open hips and square or relatively square shoulders.  

In EVERY good swing the hips decelerate BEFORE impact.  This is a function of the conservation of angular momentum and reaching the end of your range of motion.  The time at which they decel and the amount varies but it happens in all good swings. (Not saying its conscious).


You believe that you have found THE way to swing a club.  That's great for you.  But there is no one way to swing a club and there is no perfect.  The game of golf is played in an arena that is ever changing and in complete chaos.  The face closes at thousands of degrees per second through impact, even when you think you are holding it off.   In fact holding the face off tilts the spin axis more towards draw.  You don't understand how swings like Fowler's work and that's fine.  But the point of the article is to provide options and explain how certain components work together and how you can try to "fix" a problem that's not a problem and make is significantly worse.  A golfer needs to find what makes their swing work and keep/improve that.  It's not about looking a certain way.  If the components are matching a swing can look infinitely different ways and produce the same results.

Amen, teach. Some on here think there's ONLY one way to swing a club effectively and consistently. Fowler could work on a slicefixer-type swing for a year and might hit it worse than he does now.


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#11 HappyGolf

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

Dan, would you say that people who swing closer to Fowlers pattern would be more prone to flipping?

#12 cac022

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

Great article Dan. Definitely think I fall into the Fowler category of right arm straightening faster. I tried (and failed) to take the left side of the course out of the equation. Struggled big time. Maybe my body wasn't capable of clearing my hips fast enough? Got a baby draw back with the feeling of releasing at impact instead of a Mahan hold off move.

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#13 iteachgolf

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:57 PM

View PostHappyGolf, on 18 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Dan, would you say that people who swing closer to Fowlers pattern would be more prone to flipping?
Depends on how shallow/steep they are.  If you are steep then yes because you need to get the club out of the ground. If you are shallow lthen no. But same can be said for the other pattern. Flipping is more of an issue of steep or shallow.  Shaft lean keeps the club moving down longer for shallow people.  Bending left wrist gets club ascending so that club gets shallower for people that are steep.

#14 dairic

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:22 PM

Great article!

These days I've thinking about shoulder turn to control ball flight. A delayed shoulder turn for a push draw. Aggressive shoulder turn for a fade. Somewhere in between for straight-ish.

#15 QCart

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:22 AM

Awesome article!  I love to read articles that make the "light bulb" turn on for me. Thank you sir for taking the time to write this....much appreciated!


#16 Thrillhouse

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:56 AM

Nice write up teach! Very informative.

#17 KYMAR

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:11 AM

OMG an article, or even a post, from a professional who plainly states there are plenty of ways to make an effective swing! How refreshing to see they exist, that they can give examples of what their saying, and articulate the distinctions in easy to understand descriptions! Thanks Dan, very well done!

Edited by KYMAR, 19 December 2012 - 03:11 AM.

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#18 KDMullins

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:01 AM

Always enjoy your posts and insight, Dan.  Thanks!

#19 bona vacantia

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:19 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 18 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Sorry but going to disagree with almost all of this.  I chose him exactly because he is different.  The whole point of the article is to tailor swing changes to your individual pattern.  I specifically state is on the extreme end of the spectrum and most players fall somewhere in the middle.  

Ricky doesn't flip.  He has a pretty good amount of shaft lean at impact.  He has a higher overtaking rate. Which actually makes the path move more left and less likely to hook.  A player who keeps the right arm bent longer and has a slow overtaking rate has path moving in to out the longest and is actually more likely to both toe the ball and hook it.  His move through the ball actually helps eliminate the left side of the course.  Ricky's hips get more than 40* open at impact.  There are a TON of GREAT players with very open hips and square or relatively square shoulders.  

In EVERY good swing the hips decelerate BEFORE impact.  This is a function of the conservation of angular momentum and reaching the end of your range of motion.  The time at which they decel and the amount varies but it happens in all good swings. (Not saying its conscious).


You believe that you have found THE way to swing a club.  That's great for you.  But there is no one way to swing a club and there is no perfect.  The game of golf is played in an arena that is ever changing and in complete chaos.  The face closes at thousands of degrees per second through impact, even when you think you are holding it off.   In fact holding the face off tilts the spin axis more towards draw.  You don't understand how swings like Fowler's work and that's fine.  But the point of the article is to provide options and explain how certain components work together and how you can try to "fix" a problem that's not a problem and make is significantly worse.  A golfer needs to find what makes their swing work and keep/improve that.  It's not about looking a certain way.  If the components are matching a swing can look infinitely different ways and produce the same results.

+1

Great article Dan, I'm very ignorant as to mechanics, but I can see what your saying makes sense.

It's folly (for example) to espouse and work towards trying to get a bent right arm at impact without understanding why it is desirable, or indeed, whether it is necessary for that individual.

Without delving into pejorative posting, I find it laughable that some on here label Rickie Fowler a flipper without having the slightest idea of what a 'flip' is.

#20 PingG10guy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

Dan, youre the only guy Ive seen write objective explanations about this stuff that are easy to read.  Awesome.  But...

I cant wait for you to write the pivot article.  Sliding/tilting/turning at the proper rate in the downswing is still kinda cloudy to me I guess.


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#21 Scottk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:12 PM

Dan:  Great article.  Easy to understand and very open minded.   I studied both Hunter and Ricky's swing examples and noticed a significant difference in the hip action.  Can you discuss how the hip action also relates to the shoulders.  It seems with the open shoulders (Hunters swing) he is open in hips much sooner and much more, where Fowler's swing seems to have a significant hip "stall" at impact.  In Hunter's swing the hips are already open and not being pulled open, where Fowler's arms seem to pull him to the finish.  

Is it fair to say that a more "armsy" swing requires less open shoulders and a body controlled pivot requires more open shoulders (and hips).  Thanks again.  Please keep the articles coming.

#22 pheitmeyer

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

I just watched the latest videos i took of my swing about a month ago.  right arm bent at impact and shoulders square.  a good draw to a horrible hook depending on how long the club is!  thx Dan now i've got something to work on!

#23 iteachgolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:44 PM

If you look at their swings,  Ricky's arms are very much in front of his chest.  His chest stays closed longer in the downswing and his arms work down faster (were more in front of him in backswing too as he had huge shoulder turn) and his right elbow is very much in front of him.  If your arms are in front of you, your shoulders better be practically square or you'd hit pulls and wipe slices.  Mahan turns less going back getting his right arm much more behind him. On the downswing his right elbows stays behind him.  This FORCES the issue and makes him turn his shoulders.  If he didn't he'd swing WAY inside out.   In order for those shoulders to get that open and have proper sequencing the hips have to get quite open.   I think Armsy is the wrong word for Fowler's pattern.  His arms simply travel less across his body and stay more in front of him, largely due to his shoulder turn combined with his width.  Fowler's hips decelerate at a faster rate, because his shoulders stay closed as long as they do and he has WAY more separation between his upper and lower body.  Hips slow down due to limits in range of motion, allowing his shoulders to catch up.   Because Hunter's shoulders open with his hips, out of necessity due to right arm behind behind him, he doesn't have this separation and his range of motion isn't as stretched to its limits. This means his hips decelerate at a slower rate than Ricky's, yes they are still deceleration prior to impact, and as a result Hunter produces way less speed than Ricky.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, neither is wrong. They are different and as a result have different "rules" so to speak. Both have VERY neutral paths and I'd be willing to bet if anything Fowler's swing has a slower rate of closure than Mahan's but it'd be fairly similar. How the club is moving through impact is VERY similar in these two swings. They just achieve it different ways.

#24 MadGolfer76

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

In music, there are two ideas about "non-consonant" sounds. They are either eliminated or reorganized/framed appropriately so that they work in spite of themselves - actually become foundational elements. I believe this article relates to the latter concept; finding the right framework and context for certain ideas to flourish.

Very appealing from an educational standpoint, even though I don't teach golf.

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#25 iteachgolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:57 PM

I will add Hunter works on being wider in backswing, getting right arm less behind him, and straightening it faster in the downswing.   Mahan has hit roughly 3% more greens than Ricky the last 2 years and in 2010 Ricky actually hit about 2% more greens than Hunter.  Roughly half a green difference a round, but Fowler's proximity to the hole stats are MUCH better.  Fowler has been better all three years in proximity to the hole finishing 30th and 9th in 2011 and 2010 respectively.  Hunter wasn't in the top 125 in proximity to the hole over those two years.  Ball striking wise I'd say they are about equals and if anything Fowler is the better ball striker.   both produce extremely effective results even though they are opposite sides of spectrum.

Edited by iteachgolf, 19 December 2012 - 08:04 PM.


#26 Scottk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:13 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you look at their swings,  Ricky's arms are very much in front of his chest.  His chest stays closed longer in the downswing and his arms work down faster (were more in front of him in backswing too as he had huge shoulder turn) and his right elbow is very much in front of him.  If your arms are in front of you, your shoulders better be practically square or you'd hit pulls and wipe slices.  Mahan turns less going back getting his right arm much more behind him. On the downswing his right elbows stays behind him.  This FORCES the issue and makes him turn his shoulders.  If he didn't he'd swing WAY inside out.   In order for those shoulders to get that open and have proper sequencing the hips have to get quite open.   I think Armsy is the wrong word for Fowler's pattern.  His arms simply travel less across his body and stay more in front of him, largely due to his shoulder turn combined with his width.  Fowler's hips decelerate at a faster rate, because his shoulders stay closed as long as they do and he has WAY more separation between his upper and lower body.  Hips slow down due to limits in range of motion, allowing his shoulders to catch up.   Because Hunter's shoulders open with his hips, out of necessity due to right arm behind behind him, he doesn't have this separation and his range of motion isn't as stretched to its limits. This means his hips decelerate at a slower rate than Ricky's, yes they are still deceleration prior to impact, and as a result Hunter produces way less speed than Ricky.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, neither is wrong. They are different and as a result have different "rules" so to speak. Both have VERY neutral paths and I'd be willing to bet if anything Fowler's swing has a slower rate of closure than Mahan's but it'd be fairly similar. How the club is moving through impact is VERY similar in these two swings. They just achieve it different ways.

Could not have asked for a better explanation.  I have read both of your articles.  You should seriously consider writing a book.  You are really hitting on a bigger picture here - depending on your pattern, you need to work on certain pieces that may be right for one pattern and not for another.  And neither is right or wrong.  The only right or wrong is whether you are working on the right pieces for your pattern.  Not quite as cut and dry as Jim Hardy's one plane vs. two plane, but clearly certain patterns are distinguishable.  

I went to one instructor and I watched him tell everybody that shoulders should be square at impact.  That everybody should have really high hands in the backswing, that everybody should have a roll release.  Imagine having a natural one plane swing and being told that.   Great stuff, Dan.

#27 jtotto83

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:13 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I will add Hunter works on being wider in backswing, getting right arm less behind him, and straightening it faster in the downswing.   Mahan has hit roughly 3% more greens than Ricky the last 2 years and in 2010 Ricky actually hit about 2% more greens than Hunter.  Roughly half a green difference a round, but Fowler's proximity to the hole stats are MUCH better.  Fowler has been better all three years in proximity to the hole finishing 30th and 9th in 2011 and 2010 respectively.  Hunter wasn't in the top 125 in proximity to the hole over those two years.  Ball striking wise I'd say they are about equals and if anything Fowler is the better ball striker.   both produce extremely effective results even though they are opposite sides of spectrum.

That's very interesting....Mahan is widely heralded as one of the "best ball strikers on tour".  Fowler doesn't get that lable very much, not that anyone thinks he is bad.  I think that you have brought up some great points and this is a good thread.  I knew "flipping" would come into play at some point with Fowler, but I agree with you he is anything but.  Not to open a soap box, but because of a few members on this board it has become the most overused and misunderstood term as it relates to the golf swing on this board.  I'm glad you have brought this to everyone's attention as you bring credibility to what many of us have been saying for a long time!

#28 GatorPaul

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

I drove 3.5 hours each way to visit Dan today.  He is as advertised.  He literally will change your ball flight over a few swings.  And for players like me that relate to more to feel than technical jargon, he seems to be able to choose the appropriate analogies to get his point across.  I am a believer and I will gladly drive that 7 hours again to get some more insight.  Keep up the preach teach.

#29 iteachgolf

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostScottk, on 19 December 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you look at their swings,  Ricky's arms are very much in front of his chest.  His chest stays closed longer in the downswing and his arms work down faster (were more in front of him in backswing too as he had huge shoulder turn) and his right elbow is very much in front of him.  If your arms are in front of you, your shoulders better be practically square or you'd hit pulls and wipe slices.  Mahan turns less going back getting his right arm much more behind him. On the downswing his right elbows stays behind him.  This FORCES the issue and makes him turn his shoulders.  If he didn't he'd swing WAY inside out.   In order for those shoulders to get that open and have proper sequencing the hips have to get quite open.   I think Armsy is the wrong word for Fowler's pattern.  His arms simply travel less across his body and stay more in front of him, largely due to his shoulder turn combined with his width.  Fowler's hips decelerate at a faster rate, because his shoulders stay closed as long as they do and he has WAY more separation between his upper and lower body.  Hips slow down due to limits in range of motion, allowing his shoulders to catch up.   Because Hunter's shoulders open with his hips, out of necessity due to right arm behind behind him, he doesn't have this separation and his range of motion isn't as stretched to its limits. This means his hips decelerate at a slower rate than Ricky's, yes they are still deceleration prior to impact, and as a result Hunter produces way less speed than Ricky.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, neither is wrong. They are different and as a result have different "rules" so to speak. Both have VERY neutral paths and I'd be willing to bet if anything Fowler's swing has a slower rate of closure than Mahan's but it'd be fairly similar. How the club is moving through impact is VERY similar in these two swings. They just achieve it different ways.

Could not have asked for a better explanation.  I have read both of your articles.  You should seriously consider writing a book.  You are really hitting on a bigger picture here - depending on your pattern, you need to work on certain pieces that may be right for one pattern and not for another.  And neither is right or wrong.  The only right or wrong is whether you are working on the right pieces for your pattern.  Not quite as cut and dry as Jim Hardy's one plane vs. two plane, but clearly certain patterns are distinguishable.  

I went to one instructor and I watched him tell everybody that shoulders should be square at impact.  That everybody should have really high hands in the backswing, that everybody should have a roll release.  Imagine having a natural one plane swing and being told that.   Great stuff, Dan.
I don't think I'll ever write a book.  It's a ton of work and their isn't much money in it.  In addition very few if any can learn from a book or DVD.  As a result I rather offer it for free and let people take it or leave it.  I didn't start teaching to make money or be famous.  I just like helping people and love the game.  I rather give it away than spend the time it takes to write a book, have people pay for it and not profit much. Here I can provide further explanation and clarification that can't happen in a book medium.  It's not totally out of the question I suppose but not a high probability.

#30 MadGolfer76

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

View PostScottk, on 19 December 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you look at their swings,  Ricky's arms are very much in front of his chest.  His chest stays closed longer in the downswing and his arms work down faster (were more in front of him in backswing too as he had huge shoulder turn) and his right elbow is very much in front of him.  If your arms are in front of you, your shoulders better be practically square or you'd hit pulls and wipe slices.  Mahan turns less going back getting his right arm much more behind him. On the downswing his right elbows stays behind him.  This FORCES the issue and makes him turn his shoulders.  If he didn't he'd swing WAY inside out.   In order for those shoulders to get that open and have proper sequencing the hips have to get quite open.   I think Armsy is the wrong word for Fowler's pattern.  His arms simply travel less across his body and stay more in front of him, largely due to his shoulder turn combined with his width.  Fowler's hips decelerate at a faster rate, because his shoulders stay closed as long as they do and he has WAY more separation between his upper and lower body.  Hips slow down due to limits in range of motion, allowing his shoulders to catch up.   Because Hunter's shoulders open with his hips, out of necessity due to right arm behind behind him, he doesn't have this separation and his range of motion isn't as stretched to its limits. This means his hips decelerate at a slower rate than Ricky's, yes they are still deceleration prior to impact, and as a result Hunter produces way less speed than Ricky.

Both have advantages and disadvantages, neither is wrong. They are different and as a result have different "rules" so to speak. Both have VERY neutral paths and I'd be willing to bet if anything Fowler's swing has a slower rate of closure than Mahan's but it'd be fairly similar. How the club is moving through impact is VERY similar in these two swings. They just achieve it different ways.

Could not have asked for a better explanation.  I have read both of your articles.  You should seriously consider writing a book.  You are really hitting on a bigger picture here - depending on your pattern, you need to work on certain pieces that may be right for one pattern and not for another.  And neither is right or wrong.  The only right or wrong is whether you are working on the right pieces for your pattern.  Not quite as cut and dry as Jim Hardy's one plane vs. two plane, but clearly certain patterns are distinguishable.  

I went to one instructor and I watched him tell everybody that shoulders should be square at impact.  That everybody should have really high hands in the backswing, that everybody should have a roll release.  Imagine having a natural one plane swing and being told that.   Great stuff, Dan.
I don't think I'll ever write a book.  It's a ton of work and their isn't much money in it.  In addition very few if any can learn from a book or DVD.  As a result I rather offer it for free and let people take it or leave it.  I didn't start teaching to make money or be famous.  I just like helping people and love the game.  I rather give it away than spend the time it takes to write a book, have people pay for it and not profit much. Here I can provide further explanation and clarification that can't happen in a book medium.  It's not totally out of the question I suppose but not a high probability.

Don't overlook the reflective benefit of book writing. I share your thoughts about doing so (in my own area of expertise), but the act of collecting your thoughts into one place is, professionally, very affirming.

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