116 replies to this topic

[MizunoJoe]

ej002, on 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

MJ - agreed, I must have missed your point.

Is T really advocating a hold off or a delay of the full release?  big difference.

Check out the video he posted back a page or two.

[chiva]

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

It's funny you mention this. When I first read Hogan's book I was about 16. I read that and thought ok, weak grip, cupped at top then roll the wrists as hard and as fast as I could. I couldn't hook it. I used to think that's what he did when I was a kid. Lol.

And that's what Hogan thought he did when you were a kid.

So you're saying Hogan was trying to roll his wrists as hard and as fast as he could on full shots? It wasn't the "full body release" everyone is always talking about? IOW, it's notjust physics that squares the club head, it's an active rolling of the wrists? This doesn't seem consistent with everything I've heard about the Hogan style release from all the experts. Maybe his book said he could do that but I don't think he did. What say ye?

[dairic]

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

It's funny you mention this. When I first read Hogan's book I was about 16. I read that and thought ok, weak grip, cupped at top then roll the wrists as hard and as fast as I could. I couldn't hook it. I used to think that's what he did when I was a kid. Lol.

And that's what Hogan thought he did when you were a kid.

So you're saying Hogan was trying to roll his wrists as hard and as fast as he could on full shots? It wasn't the "full body release" everyone is always talking about? IOW, it's notjust physics that squares the club head, it's an active rolling of the wrists? This doesn't seem consistent with everything I've heard about the Hogan style release from all the experts. Maybe his book said he could do that but I don't think he did. What say ye?

On a full shot he said that he hit hard with both the right and left hand. Only in the transition do the hands get a free ride. After that they are active. I'll see if I can get the relevant quotes later

[chiva]

dairic, on 22 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

It's funny you mention this. When I first read Hogan's book I was about 16. I read that and thought ok, weak grip, cupped at top then roll the wrists as hard and as fast as I could. I couldn't hook it. I used to think that's what he did when I was a kid. Lol.

And that's what Hogan thought he did when you were a kid.

So you're saying Hogan was trying to roll his wrists as hard and as fast as he could on full shots? It wasn't the "full body release" everyone is always talking about? IOW, it's notjust physics that squares the club head, it's an active rolling of the wrists? This doesn't seem consistent with everything I've heard about the Hogan style release from all the experts. Maybe his book said he could do that but I don't think he did. What say ye?

On a full shot he said that he hit hard with both the right and left hand. Only in the transition do the hands get a free ride. After that they are active. I'll see if I can get the relevant quotes later

I'll get my 5L book and re-read that part. Hmmm. Interesting.

[dairic]

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

dairic, on 22 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

chiva, on 22 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

It's funny you mention this. When I first read Hogan's book I was about 16. I read that and thought ok, weak grip, cupped at top then roll the wrists as hard and as fast as I could. I couldn't hook it. I used to think that's what he did when I was a kid. Lol.

And that's what Hogan thought he did when you were a kid.

So you're saying Hogan was trying to roll his wrists as hard and as fast as he could on full shots? It wasn't the "full body release" everyone is always talking about? IOW, it's notjust physics that squares the club head, it's an active rolling of the wrists? This doesn't seem consistent with everything I've heard about the Hogan style release from all the experts. Maybe his book said he could do that but I don't think he did. What say ye?

On a full shot he said that he hit hard with both the right and left hand. Only in the transition do the hands get a free ride. After that they are active. I'll see if I can get the relevant quotes later

I'll get my 5L book and re-read that part. Hmmm. Interesting.

Have a read at this too...I consider it almost as valuable as 5 lessons. Other than the "secret" there's a lot of info about what Hogan thought about the golf swing.

http://books.google....ce:life&f=false

Up to earlier this year my ideas around hogan were formed by the concept of hitting a fade and holding off the release. When I was chatting with a local pro about this he said my current understanding was essentially one huge misconception. He explained that 5 lessons is a book for high handicap amateurs to learn the proper golf swing motion. The important thing to remember when reading it is that it's a swing designed to hit a draw. He even said the dreaded words "inside out" lol. turns out those words are in 5 lessons. He then said when you finally break 80 then we'll talk about making that swing hook proof. I didn't believe it at the time, but this guy is an awesome ball striker so I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I read 5 lessons and the Life article with this new perspective....I can't tell you how much of a mind blowing experience this has been.

Edited by dairic, 23 December 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[chiva]

Thanks for that article. Always good to read it again.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Hogan Shell wood - Practice vs real

[TeeAce]

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

ej002, on 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

MJ - agreed, I must have missed your point.

Is T really advocating a hold off or a delay of the full release?  big difference.

Check out the video he posted back a page or two.

There is not a bit of holding in my video or in my teaching. ZERO!

It's hitting as hard you can with all you got.

[Crab Daddy]

Ben Hogan Swing Project, on 23 December 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Hogan Shell wood - Practice vs real

Wow! It's interesting how the top clips look incredibly similar, but, when slowed down, there are really big differences.
And we wonder why our real swings don't look like our practice swings.

[MizunoJoe]

TeeAce, on 23 December 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

ej002, on 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

MJ - agreed, I must have missed your point.

Is T really advocating a hold off or a delay of the full release?  big difference.

Check out the video he posted back a page or two.

There is not a bit of holding in my video or in my teaching. ZERO!

It's hitting as hard you can with all you got.

Starting at 9:00 of your video on pg 2 of this thread, you are demoing keeping the club head WAAAAAY to the right of the hands in the follow through from the DTL view.  If that's not a hold off move, then such a thing does not exist.  That can only be done by retarding the club head.  What you're doing in that video is the opposite of what Hogan is doing in the feel/real video in which the club head is tearing past and to the left of the hands in the follow through.

[Crab Daddy]

MizunoJoe, on 23 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

TeeAce, on 23 December 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

ej002, on 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

MJ - agreed, I must have missed your point.

Is T really advocating a hold off or a delay of the full release?  big difference.

Check out the video he posted back a page or two.

There is not a bit of holding in my video or in my teaching. ZERO!

It's hitting as hard you can with all you got.

Starting at 9:00 of your video on pg 2 of this thread, you are demoing keeping the club head WAAAAAY to the right of the hands in the follow through from the DTL view.  If that's not a hold off move, then such a thing does not exist.  That can only be done by retarding the club head.  What you're doing in that video is the opposite of what Hogan is doing in the feel/real video in which the club head is tearing past and to the left of the hands in the follow through.

TA can certainly speak for himself, but isn't he exaggerating the motion for effect? That's Palmer's follow through. With the arms connected to the rotating torso, the hands go left, then up.  Don't you see that with Hogan's irons - hands exit view before club head, then finish high?  Much less so with woods.

[dairic]

Crab Daddy, on 23 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 23 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

TeeAce, on 23 December 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

ej002, on 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

MJ - agreed, I must have missed your point.

Is T really advocating a hold off or a delay of the full release?  big difference.

Check out the video he posted back a page or two.

There is not a bit of holding in my video or in my teaching. ZERO!

It's hitting as hard you can with all you got.

Starting at 9:00 of your video on pg 2 of this thread, you are demoing keeping the club head WAAAAAY to the right of the hands in the follow through from the DTL view.  If that's not a hold off move, then such a thing does not exist.  That can only be done by retarding the club head.  What you're doing in that video is the opposite of what Hogan is doing in the feel/real video in which the club head is tearing past and to the left of the hands in the follow through.

TA can certainly speak for himself, but isn't he exaggerating the motion for effect? That's Palmer's follow through. With the arms connected to the rotating torso, the hands go left, then up.  Don't you see that with Hogan's irons - hands exit view before club head, then finish high?  Much less so with woods.

If you go to the 1:35 mark on the video you can see Palmer's right elbow disconnecting from his body way before Hogan's would. Did you have another video in mind? Based on that footage I don't see any hands go left intent. I don't think Hogan had hands go left intent either, but because of his body arm connection through impact it does appear that there could be. He states very clearly in 5 lessons that he had an "inside-out" intent...even though this combination or words is considered evil here at Golfwrx

Edited by dairic, 23 December 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Crab Daddy]

dairic, on 23 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

If you go to the 1:35 mark on the video you can see Palmer's right elbow disconnecting from his body way before Hogan's would. Did you have another video in mind? Based on that footage I don't see any hands go left intent. I don't think Hogan had hands go left intent either, but because of his body arm connection through impact it does appear that there could be. He states very clearly in 5 lessons that he had an "inside-out" intent...even though this combination or words is considered evil here at Golfwrx

You're right. It would have been better to frame the finish similarities as a question. My point was that it appears that similar forces were at work to create that finish, and perhaps it is only with the left arm post-impact. But, Palmer had tremendous core rotation like Hogan, although not as connected as Hogan.  I also iron swings (like at 0:55) more in mind, where the pattern is more noticeable.

[TeeAce]

MizunoJoe, on 23 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

TeeAce, on 23 December 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

ej002, on 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

MJ - agreed, I must have missed your point.

Is T really advocating a hold off or a delay of the full release?  big difference.

Check out the video he posted back a page or two.

There is not a bit of holding in my video or in my teaching. ZERO!

It's hitting as hard you can with all you got.

Starting at 9:00 of your video on pg 2 of this thread, you are demoing keeping the club head WAAAAAY to the right of the hands in the follow through from the DTL view.  If that's not a hold off move, then such a thing does not exist.  That can only be done by retarding the club head.  What you're doing in that video is the opposite of what Hogan is doing in the feel/real video in which the club head is tearing past and to the left of the hands in the follow through.

Nope MJ... you still miss the point. I hit as hard as I can with everything and there is no hold at all. No hold.. just fire... with 3 right hands

[MizunoJoe]

TeeAce, on 23 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 23 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

TeeAce, on 23 December 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 22 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

ej002, on 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

MJ - agreed, I must have missed your point.

Is T really advocating a hold off or a delay of the full release?  big difference.

Check out the video he posted back a page or two.

There is not a bit of holding in my video or in my teaching. ZERO!

It's hitting as hard you can with all you got.

Starting at 9:00 of your video on pg 2 of this thread, you are demoing keeping the club head WAAAAAY to the right of the hands in the follow through from the DTL view.  If that's not a hold off move, then such a thing does not exist.  That can only be done by retarding the club head.  What you're doing in that video is the opposite of what Hogan is doing in the feel/real video in which the club head is tearing past and to the left of the hands in the follow through.

Nope MJ... you still miss the point. I hit as hard as I can with everything and there is no hold at all. No hold.. just fire... with 3 right hands

Here's the difference T, it appears that you are trying to keep the triangle open with your arms/hands while closing it with the pivot, while I'm advocating keeping the triangle open to a late release point and then slamming it shut with both the pivot AND the arms.  In TGM terms, I'm slam rolling the Flying Wedges through Impact after getting to a late release point.

Your attempt to keep the right forearm under the left forearm all the way through impact to the follow through is what I'm calling a hold-off move, and it is a power leak, since you losing much of the power potential of the triangle roll(PA #3 in TGM).  In TGM terms, you are trying to roll only the upper half of the Flying Wedges using a full shoulder turn.

[TeeAce]

MJ, there is some paradoxes in your theories, but let it be like that because it's Christmas  

Anyway Hogan and Snead both have really open triangle at impact and also way after that. And everything gets clear when we just know that hand speed is the only crucial thing for power.

[MizunoJoe]

TeeAce, on 24 December 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

MJ, there is some paradoxes in your theories, but let it be like that because it's Christmas  

Anyway Hogan and Snead both have really open triangle at impact and also way after that. And everything gets clear when we just know that hand speed is the only crucial thing for power.

Merry Christmas Tee!  You can fill me in on these paradoxes after Christmas.

The triangle is wide open at release, and still PARTIALLY OPEN at impact, but then it's slammed closed VERY QUICKLY after impact by shoulder rotation and arm speed(hand speed), where by open, I mean from the DTL view, the right arm is below the left, and by closed I mean the right arm is above the left.

[TeeAce]

MizunoJoe, on 24 December 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

TeeAce, on 24 December 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

MJ, there is some paradoxes in your theories, but let it be like that because it's Christmas  

Anyway Hogan and Snead both have really open triangle at impact and also way after that. And everything gets clear when we just know that hand speed is the only crucial thing for power.

Merry Christmas Tee!  You can fill me in on these paradoxes after Christmas.

The triangle is wide open at release, and still PARTIALLY OPEN at impact, but then it's slammed closed VERY QUICKLY after impact by shoulder rotation and arm speed(hand speed), where by open, I mean from the DTL view, the right arm is below the left, and by closed I mean the right arm is above the left.

And I mean with open triangle when the elbow line points more to the right than shoulder line.

[Pinsplitter59]

It can be hard to follow the thoughts of some people.
Outside this forum Teeace says he is teaching a drop of the arms from the top before turning back to the ball.
I have seen Harrington do that on practice swings and assumed he was trying to fix a disconnected at the top position with the arms.
never heard any reference of Hogan saying/doing it.
Tiger 2000 said something like that.
Often my own thoughts and beliefs change according to whom I am trying to impress.
Anyhow I don't why this thread needs so many replies, the man himself showed us.

[TeeAce]

Pinsplitter59, on 25 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

It can be hard to follow the thoughts of some people.
Outside this forum Teeace says he is teaching a drop of the arms from the top before turning back to the ball.
I have seen Harrington do that on practice swings and assumed he was trying to fix a disconnected at the top position with the arms.
never heard any reference of Hogan saying/doing it.
Tiger 2000 said something like that.
Often my own thoughts and beliefs change according to whom I am trying to impress.
Anyhow I don't why this thread needs so many replies, the man himself showed us.
GolfPerfect-FofHarmthrow.jpg

That hand move is not down and it cant be seen from pictures or normal fps video. From top down you can get an idea what happens there and also how big distortions are included from traditional views.

Put yourself to the position at the first image of your set. Then think carefully what is really the first move there.I think it's a small move of right elbow and hand and then it starts with lower body.

[tembolo1284]

TeeAce, on 26 December 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Pinsplitter59, on 25 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

It can be hard to follow the thoughts of some people.
Outside this forum Teeace says he is teaching a drop of the arms from the top before turning back to the ball.
I have seen Harrington do that on practice swings and assumed he was trying to fix a disconnected at the top position with the arms.
never heard any reference of Hogan saying/doing it.
Tiger 2000 said something like that.
Often my own thoughts and beliefs change according to whom I am trying to impress.
Anyhow I don't why this thread needs so many replies, the man himself showed us.
GolfPerfect-FofHarmthrow.jpg

That hand move is not down and it cant be seen from pictures or normal fps video. From top down you can get an idea what happens there and also how big distortions are included from traditional views.

Put yourself to the position at the first image of your set. Then think carefully what is really the first move there.I think it's a small move of right elbow and hand and then it starts with lower body.

So you let the arms and hands fall first?

[MizunoJoe]

tembolo1284, on 28 December 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

So you let the arms and hands fall first?

Looks like they are thrown down and out to release point by the pivot, however T says you can't actually see that because the camera speed is too slow.

[TeeAce]

MizunoJoe, on 28 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

tembolo1284, on 28 December 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

So you let the arms and hands fall first?

Looks like they are thrown down and out to release point by the pivot, however T says you can't actually see that because the camera speed is too slow.

And you are still afraid to face the truth? I think I haven't get you on skype yet.

[TeeAce]

tembolo1284, on 28 December 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

TeeAce, on 26 December 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Pinsplitter59, on 25 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

It can be hard to follow the thoughts of some people.
Outside this forum Teeace says he is teaching a drop of the arms from the top before turning back to the ball.
I have seen Harrington do that on practice swings and assumed he was trying to fix a disconnected at the top position with the arms.
never heard any reference of Hogan saying/doing it.
Tiger 2000 said something like that.
Often my own thoughts and beliefs change according to whom I am trying to impress.
Anyhow I don't why this thread needs so many replies, the man himself showed us.
GolfPerfect-FofHarmthrow.jpg

That hand move is not down and it cant be seen from pictures or normal fps video. From top down you can get an idea what happens there and also how big distortions are included from traditional views.

Put yourself to the position at the first image of your set. Then think carefully what is really the first move there.I think it's a small move of right elbow and hand and then it starts with lower body.

So you let the arms and hands fall first?

Nope. It's not about dropping them and really a short move before hips start their work. Impossible to see by naked eye or normal video but it's there. Prepare move...

[airjammer]

Pinsplitter59, on 25 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

It can be hard to follow the thoughts of some people.
Outside this forum Teeace says he is teaching a drop of the arms from the top before turning back to the ball.
I have seen Harrington do that on practice swings and assumed he was trying to fix a disconnected at the top position with the arms.
never heard any reference of Hogan saying/doing it.
Tiger 2000 said something like that.
Often my own thoughts and beliefs change according to whom I am trying to impress.
Anyhow I don't why this thread needs so many replies, the man himself showed us.
GolfPerfect-FofHarmthrow.jpg

I'm not a huge fan of the photo just because to me he might be getting the right shoulder under plane.  Imo that would be a death move for him.  I drop from the top before turning and I would like to know from teeace how he gets his students not to get their right shoulder unplane?  I'm currently in this hell and the feeling that helps me a little is that my right shoulder moves forward instead on down first.

[Pinsplitter59]

"Put yourself to the position at the first image of your set. Then think carefully what is really the first move there.I think it's a small move of right elbow and hand and then it starts with lower body."
I am really scared to be entering into a teeace conversation but oh well...
well, thinking carefully, which i don't do a lot of, so i have had to take a little rest and light up a Burmese cheroot,
and making a few test moves in my room with my Ben Hogan Riviera 58* wedge,
it seems to me, that me, and tennis players and cricket players and baseball players would find it quite natural and most effective to move the right hip and the right hand together as if they are attached (gee golly gosh there is an illustration 5 lessons about that),
so without the benefits of 10 million frames a second 5D video computers that's the best i can come up with.

The most common trick used by gurus is to say they know the "secret",
the emotionally vulnerable person can easily fall under this spell.
The guru can't tell you what it is because you are not yet "developed" enough.
The disciple can then easily be caught forever in this never ending cycle.

[TeeAce]

Pinsplitter59, on 29 December 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

"Put yourself to the position at the first image of your set. Then think carefully what is really the first move there.I think it's a small move of right elbow and hand and then it starts with lower body."
I am really scared to be entering into a teeace conversation but oh well...
well, thinking carefully, which i don't do a lot of, so i have had to take a little rest and light up a Burmese cheroot,
and making a few test moves in my room with my Ben Hogan Riviera 58* wedge,
it seems to me, that me, and tennis players and cricket players and baseball players would find it quite natural and most effective to move the right hip and the right hand together as if they are attached (gee golly gosh there is an illustration 5 lessons about that),
so without the benefits of 10 million frames a second 5D video computers that's the best i can come up with.

The most common trick used by gurus is to say they know the "secret",
the emotionally vulnerable person can easily fall under this spell.
The guru can't tell you what it is because you are not yet "developed" enough.
The disciple can then easily be caught forever in this never ending cycle.

I'm that scary?   No no ... not at all

Old Festus in dirty side said this once and had even great capture of Hogans transition where we could see the club head moving away from target line when hips were still at their orientation. Small move, small difference in order, but can be crucial for some players as the chain of orders is very different by that.