116 replies to this topic

[MizunoJoe]

If he finished like Ben Hogan, he'd look more like Hulk Hogan ripping his shirt off before pinning Andre the Giant.

[keiko]

As a boy, I watched Hogan practice; he stayed with the shot and allowed his body to do what it wanted to do naturally. he didn't always know how he did things; but he had a good idea after thousands of balls.

[PingG10guy]

Most of what Ive seen?  No.

There are some vids where I see him exit lower with the same club and hit different shot shapes from the same stance.  but his hands still dont cross the shirt buttons until way after the ball is gone.

Low left implies steep and bending the baseline left when I read it.

Cue Kellygreen and his "ive been swinging like that for years and its a body-release".  This is going to be a repeat of last time Mizzy.  Wherent you in it too? lol

[chrisgilly09]

No...done this to death already lol.

[MizunoJoe]

Saw the swingshirt ad at the top of the forum and couldn't resist.

[PingG10guy]

MizunoJoe, on 17 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Saw the swingshirt ad at the top of the forum and couldn't resist.

Yeah.  I thought it was funny too.  The last thread made me laugh though.  Some people got salty lol.

[chiva]

I'm out.

[tylerdurden]

PingG10guy, on 17 December 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

MizunoJoe, on 17 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Saw the swingshirt ad at the top of the forum and couldn't resist.

Yeah.  I thought it was funny too.  The last thread made me laugh though.  Some people got salty lol.

Can you guys clarify what you see in his release? I'm curious.

[PingG10guy]

tylerdurden, on 18 December 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Can you guys clarify what you see in his release? I'm curious.

Since we all know the lifeline of his right hand wasnt even on the club/LH from the top I don't even know how to anser (ping reference lol) that question anymore.  I used to think I could see what he was doing, but had misconceptions about the "how".  I think Im going to just pretend like that question was for someone else and see who has some input.

[Pinsplitter59]

maybe that demonstration at the seaside film where he shows how the right index finger PUSHES forward through  impact is a clue.

[PingG10guy]

Pinsplitter59, on 18 December 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

maybe that demonstration at the seaside film where he shows how the right index finger PUSHES forward through  impact is a clue.

...okay.  I can try to imitate whoever I want at the moment of truth but in my opinion its what happens before that which matters.  Your setup, backswing, and transition allow you to strike the ball a certain way.  A noble point about the finger, but there's a lot missing...

[TeeAce]

tylerdurden, on 18 December 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Can you guys clarify what you see in his release? I'm curious.

I see he hit it with the whole club and let his hands follow the body rotation through the impact. Thats why his hands went low&left and disappeared behind him quickly after impact. His hand, forearm and wrist action made it still able to keep the club head on line.

It really seems that this whole low&left got as many definitions as we got readers and by that everyone thinks it different way. I just can't see any possibility to get those positions he had than low&left hands.

[dairic]

TeeAce, on 18 December 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

tylerdurden, on 18 December 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

Can you guys clarify what you see in his release? I'm curious.

I see he hit it with the whole club and let his hands follow the body rotation through the impact. Thats why his hands went low&left and disappeared behind him quickly after impact. His hand, forearm and wrist action made it still able to keep the club head on line.

It really seems that this whole low&left got as many definitions as we got readers and by that everyone thinks it different way. I just can't see any possibility to get those positions he had than low&left hands.

What would trying to release it to right field but with a pivot that never stalls look like?

Would that not also make the club go left after impact?

To do this I would probably delay my shoulder turn until later in the down swing then let it all go. Pivot never letting the right hand take over the left hand even thought the intention is the hit it to right field.

Otherwise how do you explain this diagram in 5 lessons. I don't see low left being communicated here at all. The plane of the downswing is oriented to the right and up

Edited by dairic, 18 December 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[TeeAce]

Dairic, the problem seems to be that people are thinking the club as an one unit even I have said so many times the ends of the club are going to different directions. IMO this is the first thing that should be understood wen learning Hogans swing. Butt end is going left and club head is going right already before impact. So there is no one single plane to observe, there is two different and those have to be understood.

Anyone who really is interested to understand this can feel free to contact me by skype and I can share my screen to show how it happens. Unfortunately I can't post it into this forum, but can explain and show it personally that way. After that is understood, so many things in Hogans swing gets logical and obvious explanations.

[Pinsplitter59]

"Butt end is going left and club head is going right"
I am speechless.

[TeeAce]

Pinsplitter59, on 19 December 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

"Butt end is going left and club head is going right"
I am speechless.

It's true and as I said, everyone who is interested to see the truth can contact me by skype and I prove it. Understanding that is the real key.

[tembolo1284]

Pinsplitter59, on 19 December 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

"Butt end is going left and club head is going right"
I am speechless.

Happens in my swing too!

[dairic]

TeeAce, on 19 December 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

Dairic, the problem seems to be that people are thinking the club as an one unit even I have said so many times the ends of the club are going to different directions. IMO this is the first thing that should be understood wen learning Hogans swing. Butt end is going left and club head is going right already before impact. So there is no one single plane to observe, there is two different and those have to be understood.

Anyone who really is interested to understand this can feel free to contact me by skype and I can share my screen to show how it happens. Unfortunately I can't post it into this forum, but can explain and show it personally that way. After that is understood, so many things in Hogans swing gets logical and obvious explanations.

Thanks for the generous offer Teeace!

I just find it very interesting that when hogan is being studied he is often described as having a one plane swing which exists low left, a held off release with a fading ball flight.

If you read what Hogan says however, he doesn't talk about "low left" or "inside to inside" instead he talks about hitting inside out, he doesn't describe his swing as one plane instead he describes it as a two plane swing which are oriented differently, he emphasizes the importance of developing a swing that hooks the ball, he talks about releasing and hitting with the arms and wrist so that they roll over the shaft trough impact and not holding them off, and that his fading ball flight was created by adding an intentional compensation and not a product of his swing fundamentals. In addition to all that, he promotes a very connected action, arms connected to body, elbows that never wander far from each other,a pitch right elbow action similiar to skipping a stone in the down swing. So again I wonder, would all of these almost contradictory intentions combined together make it appear that he's trying for a low left release? I'm thinking that it might even thought this may not be something that he intended to do at all.

Edited by dairic, 19 December 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[TeeAce]

Dairic, just contact me by skype and I show and explain it to you and you will understand it in few minutes.

[MizunoJoe]

Guys, forget the club, look at his right arm as it goes to the finish in the 4 frames at the :13 mark.  There's no way it gets straight up in the air with his hands over his left shoulder, if his hands go low/left.  They go HIGH/left

[TeeAce]

MizunoJoe, on 19 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Guys, forget the club, look at his right arm as it goes to the finish in the 4 frames at the :13 mark.  There's no way it gets straight up in the air with his hands over his left shoulder, if his hands go low/left.  They go HIGH/left

Of course they go up at that moment, no question about it. Low & Left is only around the left leg and then they go almost straight up. Wide and up.

So when I talk about L&L I mean what they do at impact and maybe 10-15 inches after that. Never even thought it would continue like that. It's all in my opposite circles video

[PingG10guy]

I thought the hands go up and in after "hands low point". Right thigh leg area from caddy view.  If they continue getting lower than wouldn't Hogan be pulling the handle across his body and need to stall his pivot to strike it.

Teeace please tell me YOU DID NOT just say that the handle of the club moves on a different plane than the clubhead.

The only way this would be possible is if American airlines broke one of my clubs in half and then put each end on different flights.  In which case I would use FedEx instead.

[Pinsplitter59]

"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest" The Boxer (Paul Simon).
For heaven's sake gentlemen just look, simple look, don't add anything at photos.

Does it go left? Of course it goes left, its a golf swing.
Does it go low? Of course it doesn't go low, it must go up.
For it to go unnaturally low a golfer has to keep his left shoulder down through impact because, gee golly gosh, the left hand is connected to the left shoulder by a fixed distance when the left arm is straight of course.
You can see the shaft plane pretty much follows the shoulder plane in angle (not position).
So I would humbly suggest the path of the club through impact is created by a natural  motion as in a pendulum is the same on each side of its motion, though for Hogan it is slightly higher on follow through, because as above, his orientation has changed a bit more to right field.

I have at times had the butt end go left and the head go right,
i usually find the head and take more care with my epoxy next time.

[Crab Daddy]

Pinsplitter59, on 19 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest" The Boxer (Paul Simon).
For heaven's sake gentlemen just look, simple look, don't add anything at photos.
hogan_sequence-shaftangle.jpg
Does it go left? Of course it goes left, its a golf swing.
Does it go low? Of course it doesn't go low, it must go up.
For it to go unnaturally low a golfer has to keep his left shoulder down through impact because, gee golly gosh, the left hand is connected to the left shoulder by a fixed distance when the left arm is straight of course.
You can see the shaft plane pretty much follows the shoulder plane in angle (not position).
So I would humbly suggest the path of the club through impact is created by a natural  motion as in a pendulum is the same on each side of its motion, though for Hogan it is slightly higher on follow through, because as above, his orientation has changed a bit more to right field.

I have at times had the butt end go left and the head go right,
i usually find the head and take more care with my epoxy next time.

I think a lot of folks are arguing based on different definitions. When I see the 1st DTL in the video MizunoJoe posted, I see Hogan's hands moving left through impact and quickly exiting from sight slightly below waist high. When I think of 'low left', that is the image in my mind. (The handle of a hammer is moving toward you when it arrives at impact - it has to, to be square to the nail head.)
Who would you say gives us a definition of 'low left'? Trevino? Palmer? Daly?

[MizunoJoe]

Crab Daddy, on 19 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Pinsplitter59, on 19 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest" The Boxer (Paul Simon).
For heaven's sake gentlemen just look, simple look, don't add anything at photos.
hogan_sequence-shaftangle.jpg
Does it go left? Of course it goes left, its a golf swing.
Does it go low? Of course it doesn't go low, it must go up.
For it to go unnaturally low a golfer has to keep his left shoulder down through impact because, gee golly gosh, the left hand is connected to the left shoulder by a fixed distance when the left arm is straight of course.
You can see the shaft plane pretty much follows the shoulder plane in angle (not position).
So I would humbly suggest the path of the club through impact is created by a natural  motion as in a pendulum is the same on each side of its motion, though for Hogan it is slightly higher on follow through, because as above, his orientation has changed a bit more to right field.

I have at times had the butt end go left and the head go right,
i usually find the head and take more care with my epoxy next time.

I think a lot of folks are arguing based on different definitions. When I see the 1st DTL in the video MizunoJoe posted, I see Hogan's hands moving left through impact and quickly exiting from sight slightly below waist high. When I think of 'low left', that is the image in my mind. (The handle of a hammer is moving toward you when it arrives at impact - it has to, to be square to the nail head.)
Who would you say gives us a definition of 'low left'? Trevino? Palmer? Daly?

Crab Daddy, on 19 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Pinsplitter59, on 19 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest" The Boxer (Paul Simon).
For heaven's sake gentlemen just look, simple look, don't add anything at photos.
hogan_sequence-shaftangle.jpg
Does it go left? Of course it goes left, its a golf swing.
Does it go low? Of course it doesn't go low, it must go up.
For it to go unnaturally low a golfer has to keep his left shoulder down through impact because, gee golly gosh, the left hand is connected to the left shoulder by a fixed distance when the left arm is straight of course.
You can see the shaft plane pretty much follows the shoulder plane in angle (not position).
So I would humbly suggest the path of the club through impact is created by a natural  motion as in a pendulum is the same on each side of its motion, though for Hogan it is slightly higher on follow through, because as above, his orientation has changed a bit more to right field.

I have at times had the butt end go left and the head go right,
i usually find the head and take more care with my epoxy next time.

I think a lot of folks are arguing based on different definitions. When I see the 1st DTL in the video MizunoJoe posted, I see Hogan's hands moving left through impact and quickly exiting from sight slightly below waist high. When I think of 'low left', that is the image in my mind. (The handle of a hammer is moving toward you when it arrives at impact - it has to, to be square to the nail head.)
Who would you say gives us a definition of 'low left'? Trevino? Palmer? Daly?

Kuchar is a good example, his hands don't go much, if any, above the shoulders in the finish.

[PingG10guy]

In 3d after the hands pass the right thigh area they go up and in.  Not low left.

Literally low and left gets you jammed up and you can hit pull cuts if you time the early extension correctly

[Crab Daddy]

PingG10guy, on 19 December 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

In 3d after the hands pass the right thigh area they go up and in.  Not low left.

Literally low and left gets you jammed up and you can hit pull cuts if you time the early extension correctly

So, are you saying it is relative to the body's orientation to the target line? From DTL, Hogan's hands disappear quickly after impact, but because of his body rotation it only gives the appearance of 'low left'?

[Crab Daddy]

MizunoJoe, on 19 December 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

Kuchar is a good example, his hands don't go much, if any, above the shoulders in the finish.

Lol! Now, I am confused.

[Pinsplitter59]

Dead obvious isn't it?
His hand move pretty much in a circle (ellipse or whatever)  so they are like a mirror image back to forward (almost).
His hands get back to where they started from at impact therefore the circle is quite compact.
He can do this because he uses his arms to control the motion of the club shaft.

[TeeAce]

PingG10guy, on 19 December 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

I thought the hands go up and in after "hands low point". Right thigh leg area from caddy view.  If they continue getting lower than wouldn't Hogan be pulling the handle across his body and need to stall his pivot to strike it.

Teeace please tell me YOU DID NOT just say that the handle of the club moves on a different plane than the clubhead.

The only way this would be possible is if American airlines broke one of my clubs in half and then put each end on different flights.  In which case I would use FedEx instead.

Yes they do and it's really logical after one just understands that. And as I've said, few minutes in skype will break down that illusion of plane and make people understand how it happens. Some has made that, but for many it seems to be more important keep the debate going on than really understand it.

And about low point you are totally right. It's around right leg so the hands don't go absolutely down after that, but they stay as low as possible. It means left arm stays straight and keeps pushing toward the ground instead of bending it and swinging up. You know staying low is not same than going down.