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1 adjustable head + 2 shafts = 2 clubs?

Is this against the rules?

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#1 oliversax

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

I'm aware of rule 4-2 and 4-4:


4-2. Playing Characteristics Changed And Foreign Material

a. Playing Characteristics Changed

During a stipulated round, the playing characteristics of a club must not be purposely changed by adjustment or by any other means.


4-4. Maximum Of Fourteen Clubs


However, if I carry 13 clubs and one of them happens to be one of these drivers that can switch shafts, and I carry an extra shaft, that I may use during the round by switching the head over, am I allowed?

Note that I will not be adjusting the setting for the head (not more open/closed or higher/lower lofts) when I switch, can this be a cheapskate way to follow in Phil Mickelson's footsteps of carrying 2 drivers without having to pony up for another driver head?

In my eyes, the spirit of the rules of 14 clubs max + no alteration to a club has followed. But is this legal?

Could you 'armchair USGA supreme court justices' please chime in?


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#2 lander215

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

Decision 4-4a/15 covers this I believe, and is not permissible.

#3 lander215

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

4-4a/15

Assembly of Club Components During Stipulated Round

Q.Rules 4-3a(iii) and 4-4a provide that the replacement or addition of a club must not be made by assembling components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round. What is the ruling in the following situations:
1. During a stipulated round, a player carries a clubhead and a shaft (i.e., components) that are capable of being assembled into a club, but he does not assemble the components?
2. During the stipulated round, components from the clubhouse are assembled off the course and then brought to the player, who uses the assembled club as a replacement for a club that has been damaged in the normal course of play or as an additional club when the player started with fewer than 14 clubs?
3. During the stipulated round, components brought to the player from the clubhouse are assembled on the course, and the assembled club is used as a replacement for a club that has been damaged in the normal course of play or as an additional club when the player started with fewer than 14 clubs?
A.1. A separate clubhead and shaft do not constitute a club. Therefore, the separate clubhead and shaft do not count towards the number of clubs the player may carry under Rule 4-4a. However, regardless of the number of clubs carried, it is not permissible to assemble a clubhead and shaft carried by or for the player during the stipulated round. Consequently, if the player did replace or add a club by assembling components carried by or for him during the round, the player would be penalized under Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4a, as applicable.
2. As the components were not carried by or for the player on the course (i.e., the components were located and assembled off the course), there is no penalty under Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4a.
3. Provided the components were not being carried by or for the player on the course at the time that the replacement club or additional club was requested by the player, there is no penalty under Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4a. (Revised)

#4 teejaywhy

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:30 PM

Iit would seem obvious to me that changing the shaft would change the playing characteristics and clearly be a violation of 4-2.   Otherwise see lander's post re 4-4.

#5 highergr0und

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

The USGA only approves adjustable clubs that require a special tool to adjust in order to prevent people from changing them easily during a round.  

On the flip side, 2 heads with the same specs attached to the 2 shafts would be just fine.  I know, I know, kind of weird, but it is what it is.


#6 Newby

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

It's not weird. It is to ensure that players do not in effect have an infinite number of clubs.

#7 Graymulligan

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:18 AM

View PostNewby, on 09 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

It's not weird. It is to ensure that players do not in effect have an infinite number of clubs.

Good call.  While reading the rules sometimes can be a little daunting, the intent of these seems pretty easy to follow, which makes figuring out legal/not legal easier I think.
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#8 lander215

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:34 PM

Why do people that want to sell things always come to the rules section to pad their post counts?

#9 sui generis

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

View Postlander215, on 17 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Why do people that want to sell things always come to the rules section to pad their post counts?

I thought the same ... why can't they go post in the "What Color of Socks does Ricky Fowler Wear" Folder?
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#10 Imp

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

I'll reply here since it was pointed out in a newer thread.

If a player had 13 clubs, kept a different shaft in the car, and at the turn exhanged the shafts, would that still be a penalty?

4-4a/15 2 and 3 only stipulate that the items were not carried with the player on the course and that coming from the clubhouse, and adding to their bag, no penalty.

So, all the player has to then do is say he picked up this 'extra' driver, and have to have 2 different ones in the bag to be legal? Because removing a working one would be a penalty?




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#11 rogolf

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostImp, on 02 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'll reply here since it was pointed out in a newer thread.

If a player had 13 clubs, kept a different shaft in the car, and at the turn exhanged the shafts, would that still be a penalty?

4-4a/15 2 and 3 only stipulate that the items were not carried with the player on the course and that coming from the clubhouse, and adding to their bag, no penalty.

So, all the player has to then do is say he picked up this 'extra' driver, and have to have 2 different ones in the bag to be legal? Because removing a working one would be a penalty?

If he goes to the parking lot and puts a shaft from his car into the head that he has been carrying, then he is in breach of the Rule.
If he starts with 13 clubs, goes to the parking lot and picks up an additional complete driver, he's fine.
If he starts with 14 clubs, goes to the parking lot and replaces his driver (which was not damaged during the normal course of play), he's in breach of the Rules.

#12 Sawgrass

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

View Postrogolf, on 02 January 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

View PostImp, on 02 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'll reply here since it was pointed out in a newer thread.

If a player had 13 clubs, kept a different shaft in the car, and at the turn exhanged the shafts, would that still be a penalty?

4-4a/15 2 and 3 only stipulate that the items were not carried with the player on the course and that coming from the clubhouse, and adding to their bag, no penalty.

So, all the player has to then do is say he picked up this 'extra' driver, and have to have 2 different ones in the bag to be legal? Because removing a working one would be a penalty?

If he goes to the parking lot and puts a shaft from his car into the head that he has been carrying, then he is in breach of the Rule.
If he starts with 13 clubs, goes to the parking lot and picks up an additional complete driver, he's fine.
If he starts with 14 clubs, goes to the parking lot and replaces his driver (which was not damaged during the normal course of play), he's in breach of the Rules.

If you start with 13 clubs and go quickly to the parking lot and assemble a new head to a new shaft both from your trunk, I suppose you are okay (same as picking out a complete club from your trunk) since you have not assembled "components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round" (quoted from 4-4 a below).

It's kind of funny that you can pick out a new club at all after your round starts (if you have fewer than 14 to start).  If you can do that, IMO it's not all that much different than assembling a club during a round, whether or not you're carrying the parts.  Picking from a trunk full of clubs is okay, making one on the spot is not?  The only difference between these two things in my mind is whether you're near the parking lot when you want the change.

(IMO they should force you to stay with 13 clubs if you started with 13, and only allow replacement for a club broken in the normal course of play.)



a. Selection and Addition of Clubs
The player must not start a stipulated round with more than fourteen clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than fourteen clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed fourteen.
The addition of a club or clubs must not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7) and the player must not add or borrow any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course or by assembling components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round.

#13 rogolf

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 02 January 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

View Postrogolf, on 02 January 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

View PostImp, on 02 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'll reply here since it was pointed out in a newer thread.

If a player had 13 clubs, kept a different shaft in the car, and at the turn exhanged the shafts, would that still be a penalty?

4-4a/15 2 and 3 only stipulate that the items were not carried with the player on the course and that coming from the clubhouse, and adding to their bag, no penalty.

So, all the player has to then do is say he picked up this 'extra' driver, and have to have 2 different ones in the bag to be legal? Because removing a working one would be a penalty?

If he goes to the parking lot and puts a shaft from his car into the head that he has been carrying, then he is in breach of the Rule.
If he starts with 13 clubs, goes to the parking lot and picks up an additional complete driver, he's fine.
If he starts with 14 clubs, goes to the parking lot and replaces his driver (which was not damaged during the normal course of play), he's in breach of the Rules.

If you start with 13 clubs and go quickly to the parking lot and assemble a new head to a new shaft both from your trunk, I suppose you are okay (same as picking out a complete club from your trunk) since you have not assembled "components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round" (quoted from 4-4 a below).

It's kind of funny that you can pick out a new club at all after your round starts (if you have fewer than 14 to start).  If you can do that, IMO it's not all that much different than assembling a club during a round, whether or not you're carrying the parts.  Picking from a trunk full of clubs is okay, making one on the spot is not?  The only difference between these two things in my mind is whether you're near the parking lot when you want the change.

(IMO they should force you to stay with 13 clubs if you started with 13, and only allow replacement for a club broken in the normal course of play.)



a. Selection and Addition of Clubs
The player must not start a stipulated round with more than fourteen clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than fourteen clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed fourteen.
The addition of a club or clubs must not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7) and the player must not add or borrow any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course or by assembling components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round.

I could support your amendment that the player is limited to the number of clubs that he started with, with the maximum 14.  I'd also support reducing the maximum, but that's not likely to happen.

I suspect the situation that the RB were dealing with regarding components and their assembly was the player starting the round with only one club and assembling others as he needed them.

#14 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:29 AM

If you go to your car and change out the shaft of the driver you were carrying, couldn't you argue that that since it was a complete club, the head would not be considered a component? And you are not really altering or changing a club, but with a new shaft, essentially adding a new/different club? Of course this is assuming you were only carrying 13 to begin with.

Sometimes the rules can make a guys head hurt.
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#15 Stuart G.

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 06:45 AM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 05 January 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

If you go to your car and change out the shaft of the driver you were carrying, couldn't you argue that that since it was a complete club, the head would not be considered a component? And you are not really altering or changing a club, but with a new shaft, essentially adding a new/different club? Of course this is assuming you were only carrying 13 to begin with.

Sometimes the rules can make a guys head hurt.

No :-)    It seems clear to me - It was a complete club when you put it in play to begin with and then changing shafts mid round altered it.  That's not the same as assembling components that were not part of a complete club at the start of play.


#16 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostStuart G., on 05 January 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 05 January 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

If you go to your car and change out the shaft of the driver you were carrying, couldn't you argue that that since it was a complete club, the head would not be considered a component? And you are not really altering or changing a club, but with a new shaft, essentially adding a new/different club? Of course this is assuming you were only carrying 13 to begin with.

Sometimes the rules can make a guys head hurt.

No :-) It seems clear to me - It was a complete club when you put it in play to begin with and then changing shafts mid round altered it.  That's not the same as assembling components that were not part of a complete club at the start of play.

I know you're right by the rules Stuart, I guess I'm just playing around with some oddball ideas. It just seems silly that you could play your front nine (with 13 clubs) with your XX driver with YY shaft, then at the turn go grab another XX driver, but this one with a UU shaft, and thats OK, but you can't just switch out your YY shaft for the UU, which to me, then makes it a new/different club. I do know that would be against the rule for altering, and would reopen the issue of changing during your round. It's just to me, there is a difference between changing settings on a club, and switching out shafts, which to me in essence makes it a new club.
I'm really not arguing the rule, because it's pretty clear cut, just seem to be having some contrarian thoughts this morning (apparently trying to find ways to skirt the rules for some reason).  All the changable clubs did add some new potential issues didn't they.
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#17 Stuart G.

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

Don't worry, I understand and can certainly follow the logic.  To me, however, I think it's about the concept of having to choose your club selection before you start playing and not being allowed to adapt to the course or weather conditions (or the condition of your swing) mid-round.

#18 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostStuart G., on 05 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Don't worry, I understand and can certainly follow the logic.  To me, however, I think it's about the concept of having to choose your club selection before you start playing and not being allowed to adapt to the course or weather conditions (or the condition of your swing) mid-round.

That does make sense and I'm sure you're right. The can of worms is best left unopened.
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#19 Imp

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:40 AM

So it's just a matter of money then? At one time, I had 5-6 different shafts in the trunk. All it would take is another head.

Starting with 13 clubs... I could make the turn, go to the trunk, assemble the club with higher/lower loft and shaft, and be on 10 before my FCs are done getting their sandwiches in the clubhouse.

Seems like a giant gaping loophole to me, waiting for someone to take advantage of it.
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#20 Stuart G.

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:05 AM

View PostImp, on 07 January 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

So it's just a matter of money then? At one time, I had 5-6 different shafts in the trunk. All it would take is another head.

Starting with 13 clubs... I could make the turn, go to the trunk, assemble the club with higher/lower loft and shaft, and be on 10 before my FCs are done getting their sandwiches in the clubhouse.

Seems like a giant gaping loophole to me, waiting for someone to take advantage of it.

I think you'd be better off just starting with two drivers, then you'd have a high/low choice for the whole round.  Besides the OP was looking for a "cheapskate way" and having to buy a second head might not qualify :-)


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#21 Imp

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:58 AM

My off-the-wall idea I might send in... (i.e.: time to crowdsource)

Modify 4-4 with something akin to

Quote

"If player starts stipulated round with less than the allowed 14 clubs, adjustment to one club may be made after 9 holes have been completed provided the player has not added an additional club to bring the bag up to the 14 maximum during the first 9. The player may not add additional club(s) for the remainder of the stipulated round to bring the number in the bag up to 14. Adjustment may not cause undue delay. Adjustment does not allow the replacement of components. The club may not be adjusted back to original settings until the stipulated round has ended."

Justification...

Per Decision 4-4/15, a player may not carry components with them on the course, however, one may add another club to their bag if the player started a stipulated round with under 14 clubs at any time during the round. Allowing a setting change, to only one club, regardless the number of clubs under the 14 maximum, and only after 9 holes, without being allowed to add a club at any time during the round, accomplishes the same as having a club brought to a player during a round that was set to their preferred playing characteristics. Yet, at the same time, it prevents adding club(s) at any hole at the players discretion.

Essentially, this rule addition allows adjusting, but negates introduction of new clubs to a bag. At that, it's only one club, regardless how many clubs the player started under 14 clubs. Risk/reward. It also helps those ameteurs that don't have the capability to pay to have multiple clubs avaialable to them, making entry into the game more cost effective by having and allowing adjustment to one club.

Sure, it could be re-worded better. Thoughts?

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#22 Sawgrass

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:34 AM

My thoughts are that the last thing we need is a complicated option to assemble or adjust clubs in the middle of the round -- or at any time during the round for that matter.  Just finish the round with the clubs you originally put in your bag.

(IMO the opportunity to add a club of your choosing after you get a sense of the course that day is perverse to begin with.)

14 is plenty.  Pick um, use um, leave your tools at home.  And only keep spares in case you're afraid you're going to break one during the round, which has never happed to me in my life.  (On the range, yes, on the course, no.)

#23 rogolf

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:22 PM

View PostImp, on 07 January 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

My off-the-wall idea I might send in... (i.e.: time to crowdsource)

Modify 4-4 with something akin to

Quote

"If player starts stipulated round with less than the allowed 14 clubs, adjustment to one club may be made after 9 holes have been completed provided the player has not added an additional club to bring the bag up to the 14 maximum during the first 9. The player may not add additional club(s) for the remainder of the stipulated round to bring the number in the bag up to 14. Adjustment may not cause undue delay. Adjustment does not allow the replacement of components. The club may not be adjusted back to original settings until the stipulated round has ended."

Justification...

Per Decision 4-4/15, a player may not carry components with them on the course, however, one may add another club to their bag if the player started a stipulated round with under 14 clubs at any time during the round. Allowing a setting change, to only one club, regardless the number of clubs under the 14 maximum, and only after 9 holes, without being allowed to add a club at any time during the round, accomplishes the same as having a club brought to a player during a round that was set to their preferred playing characteristics. Yet, at the same time, it prevents adding club(s) at any hole at the players discretion.

Essentially, this rule addition allows adjusting, but negates introduction of new clubs to a bag. At that, it's only one club, regardless how many clubs the player started under 14 clubs. Risk/reward. It also helps those ameteurs that don't have the capability to pay to have multiple clubs avaialable to them, making entry into the game more cost effective by having and allowing adjustment to one club.

Sure, it could be re-worded better. Thoughts?

--kC

Too loose, and it won't be implemented.  Choosing the right tools for the job is part of the skill required.

The RB started down the slippery slope by permitting adjustable clubs, I doubt they are willing go further down that slope.

#24 Imp

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:44 PM

Don't get me wrong, I beleive you should finish with the clubs you started with, if it were only that easy, but per the rules, right now, it's OK to
- have any club(s) brought to you so you have up to 14 clubs in your bag,
- at any point during the round,
- set up any which way you would like if adjustable.

All you have to do is have the access to the parts, or own them. You can't bring them with you on the round, though, but they can be "in the clubhouse" (which I read as "elsewhere").

Adding another club to your bag that matches the same one you have already, but adjusted differently, is perfectly legal, as long as the player didn't do it on the course.

Yet, saying "if you want to adjust your club, fine. You can only do it once at a specified point, and you can't have add ANY clubs during the entire round" is too perverse/loose/complicated.

How about debating the point/merits instead of avoiding it by saying "no", "too loose", or "too complicated"?

One can understand the issues about adjustable clubs. They could remove them just as they are with the anchoring of putters. Then you should write in saying they should be disallowed.

And rogolf, do you own an adjustable club? I'll respect your comment about not liking that adjustable clubs are allowed (i.e. slippery slope) a bit more if you say and truely don't game them.

--kC

Edited by Imp, 07 January 2013 - 12:52 PM.

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#25 rogolf

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

View PostImp, on 07 January 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I beleive you should finish with the clubs you started with, if it were only that easy, but per the rules, right now, it's OK to
- have any club(s) brought to you so you have up to 14 clubs in your bag,
- at any point during the round,
- set up any which way you would like if adjustable.

All you have to do is have the access to the parts, or own them. You can't bring them with you on the round, though, but they can be "in the clubhouse" (which I read as "elsewhere").

Adding another club to your bag that matches the same one you have already, but adjusted differently, is perfectly legal, as long as the player didn't do it on the course.

Yet, saying "if you want to adjust your club, fine. You can only do it once at a specified point, and you can't have add ANY clubs during the entire round" is too perverse/loose/complicated.

How about debating the point/merits instead of avoiding it by saying "no", "too loose", or "too complicated"?

One can understand the issues about adjustable clubs. They could remove them just as they are with the anchoring of putters. Then you should write in saying they should be disallowed.

And rogolf, do you own an adjustable club? I'll respect your comment about not liking that adjustable clubs are allowed (i.e. slippery slope) a bit more if you say and truely don't game them.

--kC

Yes, I have one adjustable fairway wood which I just purchased and have not used.  I didn't purchase it because it was adjustable, but because I liked the look and the loft.
I support the Rules the way they are currently written - no adjustments during the stipulated round and no construction using components carried for or by the player.
As I said earlier, I would also support limiting the number of clubs to 10, and/or limiting it to the number selected at the start of the round, but permitting replacement for damage during the normal course of play.
Also as I stated earlier, choosing the right equipment for the round is part of the skill set expected of good players.

Edited by rogolf, 07 January 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#26 Stuart G.

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostImp, on 07 January 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I beleive you should finish with the clubs you started with, if it were only that easy, but per the rules, right now, it's OK to
- have any club(s) brought to you so you have up to 14 clubs in your bag,
- at any point during the round,
- set up any which way you would like if adjustable.


Don't take this the wrong way but I'm not sure I'm following your point.  Yes this is true but 1) you're still finishing with the same clubs you started with and 2) adjustability is really irrelevant from the standpoint of the rules - only from the standpoint of your bank account which the USGA/RA doesn't care about.  You could just as easily have 20/50/100 different  non-adjustable clubs in your car and pick one to fill the 14th slot half way through the round and accomplish the same thing.

Edited by Stuart G., 07 January 2013 - 02:25 PM.


#27 Sawgrass

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

If I believed that having the option to switch out or add a club or two during a round would really help me, I might get more worked up about this.

As it is, I'm quite sure that addtitional club selection opportunities is far down my list of things that could improve my performance.  (Let me know when I'm allowed to pull a golf instructor out of my trunk at the turn.)

Maybe I'm so unsophisticated about these things that I can't relate.  Add a new club from your trunk at the 10th tee . . . are you even sure you'll be in a situation where you will want to use it?  I suppose a driver or a putter, but still . . . if the driver I'm using is a problem I'm pretty sure my second place driver won't be all that much help.  And I can't believe that changing my putter mid-round is the way to go either.

#28 Stuart G.

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

I can think of some times or situations but I know most of the changes would be to better accommodate whatever poor mechanics I happened to bring to the course on the particular day - and in the long run, I'd be better off spending the time and energy on the mechanics working to fix those things than worry about adjustability or equipment :-)




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