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Pivot stall

and flip

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#1 tommykrebs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:08 AM

I conquer the hit impuls and learn how to drop the club but now I'm stuck again. I have a massive pivot stall and flip of my hands. Any ideas what's the cause? I can not force myself to turn better because it feels already like a massive turn.



IMO the impact happens a bit too early. My shoulder is closed, my hips are square and my hands are not in front of my left thigh. There is something wrong but I can not figure it out. My feel is that I miss the moment to turn properly into my left leg and that's the reason I have so much flex.


Edited by tommykrebs, 27 November 2012 - 07:26 AM.


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#2 HateTheHighDraw

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

I feel you pain bud.  You'll need to exaggerate your hips being wide open at impact.  You may slice or block it for a while, but its feeling you need.

#3 tommykrebs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

View PostHateTheHighDraw, on 27 November 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

You'll need to exaggerate your hips being wide open at impact.  
I think this will not work because my hips are waiting for my arms and I don't want my right elbow stuck behind the hip. There must be a way to hit the ball a tiny moment later but without manipulating the release. I need a little more open shoulders, open hips and my hands more in front of the ball and I will have a straight left leg. Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like the sequence is OK and only need to be shifted in time.


Edited by tommykrebs, 27 November 2012 - 10:21 AM.


#4 Jericho

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:07 AM

Try a simple drill to ingrain the feeling:

1. Setup as usual
2. Take maybe a 1/8 backswing...just to the point where your right elbow begins to fold (maybe 2-3' back)
3. Stop
4. Slowly try and bring the face back to the ball (dont actually hit the ball just go through the motion to square the face)

There are only 2 ways to square the face: 1) flipping, or 2) pivot

Using your pivot to square the face, you'll find your shoulders and hips will be open.

5. Practice chipping

Trying to fix a flip to a pivot is almost impossible using a full swing. Start small.

Good luck
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#5 Crab Daddy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

I thought this was interesting.


#6 avrag

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

And another youtube-video tip for you:
Mark Crossfield's video on hip tilt in the backswing. "The more angles you create in the backswing, the more you have to eliminate to get through the ball."
There are some thoughts in there I have never heard or read before, but I will try it, because my left knee does all sorts of funny things in the backswing, and I think that the "level hips" concept could actually help me to get onto my left side faster at the start of the downswing.


Edited by avrag, 27 November 2012 - 12:19 PM.


#7 avrag

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostCrab Daddy, on 27 November 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I thought this was interesting.

Thank you for posting this. The Brian Gay / Dustin Johnson comparison is a real eye opener, how differences in the motion (and also the range of motion) of the lower body can create huge differences in power.

#8 tommykrebs

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:45 PM

Thank you all. I appreciate the help because this is very tough to understand. I like the last tip because it makes sense to me.



#9 Sledge Hammer

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:08 PM

I think I used to have a similar action and have been working for the past few years to make a change. Pictures and video don't convey a feeling and in the split second that it takes to swing from top of the backswing to the follow through, you can't really guide much except with a feeling. I have recently been working on a more rotational release, which after many years of trying to control the release of my hands into the ball was a challenge. What helped me was watching some videos of Hogan and noticing that his hips were completely open at impact and his right elbow was actually in contact with his right hip at impact. He hadn't extended his right arm until after impact. Instead he was just pulling his left arm around his body and the hips only slow down after the rotation is complete. Using that image I just started swinging the club without attempting to control the club face and trying to create the feeling that I was dragging my left arm through the ball by rotating my body and my right triceps was staying in contact with my body, elbow low, until the centripetal force pulled it away.

For a while you will need to forget about any kind of results, I worked on just this swing feeling during the off season (6 to 7 months in the Great White North) and even when I first hit the range, I hit a couple of buckets without getting many airborne, I was hitting it all over the face. Once I started to make real contact, I adjusted my grip per Hogan’s 5 Lessons to straighten out my ball flight.

Prior to this I was a 10 Hdcp. and had played 40 of my 47 years, so I could make contact pretty well before I started on this journey. That was 4 years ago, last season I had my best ball striking season yet and was co-winner of my club championship.  Still 4 yrs into the change I can find my old disconnected swing creeping back, so it takes constant work. Good luck.

Edited by Sledge Hammer, 27 November 2012 - 03:08 PM.


#10 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:05 AM

Mark Crossfield's video helped me a lot! Thank you Avrag :wave:
OK it's still not perfect and far away from a body-release but my goal for the next season was (and is)  to fix an OTT + steep + being stuck + no squat + no hip bumb + early extension swing. And to bring my left shoulder towards the my right foot (Sorry Russ, I know you wrote it so many times... :blush2:) solved a couple issues in my swing. Now it's easier to bump and squat and my EE is gone.

3 days ago:



today:



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#11 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:05 AM



#12 TeeAce

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:12 AM

Tommy, Your upper body is so much bent over the ball that IMO there is no other way than make upright swing from that position and that never works with good pivot. Those directions are just too much across to each other. It's all in the picture of your mind and if you want better pivot, you have to think whole thing new way. Shoulders so much outside of hips will never get you possibility to get it.

#13 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:19 AM

Thank you TeeAce but it's not possible for me to stand more upright.  I'm 6.2 and this is a 7 iron (+0.25inch)

#14 Crab Daddy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:52 AM

I'm no teacher, so, hopefully, a pro will correct me if I am wrong. But, it looks to me that your arms are not connected to your torso on either the bs or ds. At the top, your left arm is above shoulder plane (:10), which you correct for by P5, but your upper body is outpacing your lower body at that point. You have very little hip rotation between P5 and P6. I'm sure that's obvious to you.
IMHO, you should try to establish a better connection between arms and torso and develop a feel for getting the lower body rotation going. Perhaps hands and right hip to impact at the same time, or consciously rotate left knee externally, or get you weight to outside edge of your left heel. I'm sure there are setup issues that I don't see, but the connection is important - have you tried Russ' credit card in the armpit drill?

#15 Daniel Eason

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:09 AM

Im with the start small recommendation here with half swings, it will allow you to get a feelings at various position and more importantly the pelvic and hip positions.

You need to also trick the brain here, you have something mentally blocking the smooth transition. This is kind of the reverse of the sean foley transition drill :)

Also dude if thats a Door mat you are hitting off be prepared to buy new clubs soon :)


#16 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:09 AM

Thank you Crab Daddy, I have to say that at the moment I'm not striving to swing like Hogan and not his release. There are too much other things to fix first. I'm tired to tinker and maybe with this swing above (which is a huge improvement to my older OTT swings) is good enough to play in the high 70.  And TeeAce is right. It's very tough to rotate the lower body if you have to bend over that much.

#17 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:12 AM

View PostDaniel Eason, on 28 November 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

You need to also trick the brain here, you have something mentally blocking the smooth transition. This is kind of the reverse of the sean foley transition drill :)
I pause at the top because to get rid of the hit impulse.
Also dude if thats a Door mat you are hitting off be prepared to buy new clubs soon :)
Really? I have to check my iron. Thanks...


#18 kellygreen

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:22 AM

The mind controls the body with images.  IOW, what pictures you give yourself of what it is you are trying to accomplish, sets the parameters by which you body tries to implement it.

1. The goal of the golf swing is not to "hit the ball"...but to PROPEL the ball to the TARGET.  Your pivot stalls because you have very little motion towards the target, and all your energy and focus is directed at simply striking the ball (and with most struggling players) getting the ball into the air.

2. The trick of developing power in a golf swing is to teach your body to swing a very light golf club as if it were a very heavy object.   You're pivot stalls because your mind doesn't need to recruit your body in order to simply make contact with a stationary ball, swinging a light object.

OTOH, If I told you to throw your golf club at the target...or to throw a ball a considerable distance...you will (if you have any athletic instincts) naturally recruit your body to support and aid in the generation of the power necessary to propel the object that distance.   You won't just stand there and wave-and-flip your arms and hands.

What you need to do is be more focused on your target...and what is needed to propel the ball TO it...rather than focusing on ball contact.

Change your mind, and the body will slowly follow.
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#19 TeeAce

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:55 AM

View Posttommykrebs, on 28 November 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Thank you TeeAce but it's not possible for me to stand more upright.  I'm 6.2 and this is a 7 iron (+0.25inch)

I got many students as tall as you and they got not that problem. I think it's in your mind that you want to be "toward the ball"

#20 Sabre3

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:58 AM

Change your mind, and the body will slowly follow

I believe this to be true but the problem then arises of what you need to change it to.


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#21 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:14 AM

View PostTeeAce, on 28 November 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I got many students as tall as you and they got not that problem. I think it's in your mind that you want to be "toward the ball"
OK, send me picture of one of your tall students and I will to try mimic the posture. I'm 186 cm tall and my arms are 80 cm long (measured from the top of my shoulder to finger tips) If  I want to stand more upright I have to stand even closer to the ball and I have no room left for my arms in the downswing.

Edited by tommykrebs, 28 November 2012 - 09:18 AM.


#22 kellygreen

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

View PostSabre3, on 28 November 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Change your mind, and the body will slowly follow

I believe this to be true but the problem then arises of what you need to change it to.

That was addressed in the rest of that post.

In the case of the original poster, the root of his problem is that he is focused on striking the ball, rather than propelling the ball to the target.   All the other things that he is trying to fix are manifestations of his ball- (rather than target-) orientation.
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#23 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:41 AM

Kelly help me to understand you. Yes, the urge to hit the ball from the top is a bad thing and I'm working on the drop of the club into the slot. You tell me I have a problem because I focus on striking the ball. Why? Because I roll over my hands? This not a late flip because I'm stuck or manipulating the release by holding the lag longer which is bad too. Most of the Tour Pro's release the same way. So what's wrong? Kelly, this way too theoretic for me.

This guy release is not very different. He releases with the arms and the hips has to stop. IMO he has a textbook looking golfswing.

https://www.youtube....h?v=zcAxJ0lv7jk

And what about Luke's release? Hip stalls and arms and hands release. What's his problem?

https://www.youtube....h?v=08rpqW2Z9Vw

I can show you countless Top-Pro's with this release.

Please don't come with the argument that all Tour Pro with this release are gifted and they are only consistent because they hit 1000 balls every day. I don't believe this.

Edited by tommykrebs, 28 November 2012 - 10:11 AM.


#24 bmellisen

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:52 AM

View Posttommykrebs, on 28 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

View PostTeeAce, on 28 November 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I got many students as tall as you and they got not that problem. I think it's in your mind that you want to be "toward the ball"
OK, send me picture of one of your tall students and I will to try mimic the posture. I'm 186 cm tall and my arms are 80 cm long (measured from the top of my shoulder to finger tips) If  I want to stand more upright I have to stand even closer to the ball and I have no room left for my arms in the downswing.

I am 6'5". I get what your saying tommy, this is something I had to work very hard on with my coach.  But you can be tall, be more upright, and still have room for your arms.

#25 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:01 AM

You do seem a bit hunched over the ball, as previously stated.

Pivot stall seems misleading to me.
Is it possible the "pivot is stalling" because your are throwing your hands / scooping the ball ?

I think your main problem is scooping.  You are all hands through the hitting zone.

You seem to imply your pivot stalls and that's what creates the handsy swing.
I think it's the other way around.  Your major hand action through the ball is hardly passive.

Edited by SunkTheBirdie, 28 November 2012 - 10:02 AM.


#26 kellygreen

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:16 AM

View Posttommykrebs, on 28 November 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Kelly help me to understand you. Yes, the urge to hit the ball from the top is a bad thing and I'm working on the drop of the club into the slot. You tell me I have a problem because I focused on striking the ball. Why? Because I roll over my hands? This not a late flip because I'm stuck which is bad too. Most of the Tour Pro's release the same way. So what's wrong? Kelly, this way too theoretic for me.

This guy release is not very different. He releases with the arms and the hips has to stop. IMO he has a textbook golfswing.

https://www.youtube....h?v=zcAxJ0lv7jk

And what about Luke's release? Hip stalls and arms and hands release. What's his problem?

https://www.youtube....h?v=08rpqW2Z9Vw

My post is not theoretic...in fact it is very simple.  So simple that you've missed the point, and gone back to mechanics and chasing down isolated problems...where it seems that you are comfortable.

Your swing has the shape it does..and the problems it has...because you have lost sight of what the GOAL of the swing is.  To propel the golf ball TO a specific target.   You will not fix your swing until you stop directing all of your intention and energy AT the ball...and start directing it TO your target.

There's an old saying, "Good golfers STARE at the target and glance at the ball.  Poor golfers STARE at ther ball and glance at the target." Your swing is the way it is, because too much of your attention and INTENTION is directed at the ball...and too little of it is reaching out and engaging the target.

All of the body motion you are trying to put into your swing is a RESULT of the body trying to propel an object efficiently and powerfully  towards a distant target.  Your body will not respond in this fashion if your mind is only engaged with an object that this on the ground three feet away.  Because it doesn't need to, and won't waste the effort.

Try this...to illustrate my point.

First, videotape your swing hitting balls.  Pay no attention to where they go.  Just focus all your energy on just  hitting the ball and getting them up in the air...and see what that does to your swing.

Second (find a safe location to do this), videotape yourself THROWING golf CLUBS with your swing motion.  Pick a distant target, Make your backswing and direct all your energy and intention towards THROWING that club at the target you've chosen.  (Or if you can't find a safe place to throw golf clubs, you can also do the drill by throwing a heavy object---like a weighted medicine ball---with that same two-handed motion).

I'm betting that in the first case, you will see a massive return off all the faults that you are chasing around in your swing.  Poor lower body motion, Over the top, Flippy hands.

I'm betting in the second video where you are reaching out, engaging the target and directing your efforts towards propelling an object towards the target...you will see those faults start to disappear.  Because your body now has to get involved in order to enage the target and is directing its energy to that target.

Bottomline.  YOU SWING TO THE TARGET...AND THE GOLF BALL SIMPLY GETS IN THE WAY.   YOU DON'T SWING AT THE BALL, AND HOPE THAT IT FINDS ITS WAY TO THE TARGET.
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#27 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:26 AM

View PostSunkTheBirdie, on 28 November 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

I think your main problem is scooping.
Risky accusation. Prove it!



#28 tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:38 AM

View Postkellygreen, on 28 November 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Bottomline.  YOU SWING TO THE TARGET...AND THE GOLF BALL SIMPLY GETS IN THE WAY.   YOU DON'T SWING AT THE BALL, AND HOPE THAT IT FINDS ITS WAY TO THE TARGET.
Kelly, maybe I'm too much into golf mechanics but I think that only thinking "propel the ball to the target" will not suffice to become a better player and eliminate my swing faults. The future will tell. Thank you for your help.

Edit: I have played many many years of bad golf (in my youth) and all I had was the swing thought "propel the ball to the target". At this time I had no clue about swing mechanics. This was long before youtube and WRX. I only had a golf book from Niklaus with a few drawings. That's all.

Edited by tommykrebs, 28 November 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#29 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:46 AM

Quote

I think your main problem is scooping.

View Posttommykrebs, on 28 November 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Risky accusation. Prove it!

Easy.

Attached File  proof.jpg   35.24K   1 downloads

If you want to improve your consistency, I wouldn't bring up Luke Donald's faults.
Your swing has alot of hands for a iron shot.

#30 tommykrebs

tommykrebs

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:55 AM

Sorry, doesn't know Luke is scooping. Poor Luke...


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