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What really controls the clubface during the swing?


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#1 armydiver

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:00 PM

At the top of the backswing my grip doesn't seem to affect whether the face is open or closed. If I have a flatter backswing, the clubface is closed no matter if I have a strong or weak grip. If I take it back a little more vertically it is square. If I go back too upright, then the face is open at the top. I am not understanding why changing my grip doesn't seem to change the face angle at the top. What am I doing wrong or not understanding?


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#2 Mike Divot

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

Why does it matter?

a) it's causing the ball not to go where you want it

OR

b) someone said it doesn't look pretty

#3 Cmartingolf

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:09 AM

Great care should be taken on how you grip the club, but people don't really focus on their wrist conditions after they grip the club. The best grip in the world can deliver an awful club face to a ball if body sequence and wrist conditions are let to go awry.Regarding swing coaching, I'd say 40% of my coaching is grip/wrist conditions. 40% is body weight location/management and 20% is everything else! I don't want golfers to be handsy, but I want them knowing what their hands are supposed to do.

#4 northgolf

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:39 AM

cmartin is dead on about wrist position.

You stated what happens when you take the club back on different paths, but you ignored what is happening with your right elbow.  The more upright your swing the more likely you are to fly the right elbow, and a flying right elbow usually results in a cupped left wrist which means an open clubface at the top.  The opposite is true for a flat backswing.

#5 armydiver

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:55 AM

I was under the impression that your wrist condition is more related to the grip. For example: right hand weaker than left = cupped. right stronger than left = bowed. I have found this to be true no matter the path going back. I usually maintain a flat wrist at the top. But the clubface's orientation seems to be more related to the path back vs the grip. My wrist is cupped at address but flat at the top if that makes any sense.


#6 armydiver

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:57 AM

Mike, it matters because I want to be more consistent and have the ball go where I want. That's also how I learn; by aksing questions. Always trying to improve, you know?

#7 northgolf

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:06 AM

View Postarmydiver, on 22 November 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I was under the impression that your wrist condition is more related to the grip. For example: right hand weaker than left = cupped. right stronger than left = bowed. I have found this to be true no matter the path going back. I usually maintain a flat wrist at the top. But the clubface's orientation seems to be more related to the path back vs the grip. My wrist is cupped at address but flat at the top if that makes any sense.

If your left wrist is cupped at address and flat at the top, then the clubface is closed at the top regardless of swing path.  It is a matter of geometry.  The strength of the right hand grip does not change the relation of the left wrist to the clubface.

Are you sure you are moving the way you feel you are moving?

Edited by northgolf, 22 November 2012 - 01:10 AM.


#8 armydiver

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:54 AM

Not sure I follow... Aren't we trying to get a flat left wrist at impact? Does that make it closed at impact if you start with a cupped wrist at address and move to flat? Also you say it's closed regardless of the swing path. However, in a mirror I can see this is not true. I can still alter (this is what I want to fix or understand) the club face at the top via swing path.

#9 armydiver

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:55 AM

Thanks for the input and trying to help me figure this out :)

#10 lookma_nobackswing

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

View Postnorthgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

cmartin is dead on about wrist position.

You stated what happens when you take the club back on different paths, but you ignored what is happening with your right elbow.  The more upright your swing the more likely you are to fly the right elbow, and a flying right elbow usually results in a cupped left wrist which means an open clubface at the top.  The opposite is true for a flat backswing.

wouldn't a higher right elbow close the clubface at the top?   pitch vs punch elbow.


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#11 Mike Divot

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:05 AM

No probs, AD. Just wanted to help you make sure you were doing it for the right reason.

#12 armydiver

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

View Postlookma_nobackswing, on 22 November 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

cmartin is dead on about wrist position.

You stated what happens when you take the club back on different paths, but you ignored what is happening with your right elbow.  The more upright your swing the more likely you are to fly the right elbow, and a flying right elbow usually results in a cupped left wrist which means an open clubface at the top.  The opposite is true for a flat backswing.

wouldn't a higher right elbow close the clubface at the top?   pitch vs punch elbow.


Yes, this is what I experience. The part that is messing me up; is that I thought grip was supposed to play such a big part in this.

#13 TeeAce

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:53 AM

View Postarmydiver, on 22 November 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

Not sure I follow... Aren't we trying to get a flat left wrist at impact? Does that make it closed at impact if you start with a cupped wrist at address and move to flat? Also you say it's closed regardless of the swing path. However, in a mirror I can see this is not true. I can still alter (this is what I want to fix or understand) the club face at the top via swing path.

Flat left wrist is not actually a position, its sum of forces and very much dependent of inner circle acceleration and deceleration. Whatever you try to do with the wrist, the other forces overtakes it.

The other thing is also that you can have flat wrist with strong or neutral or weak grip, but it changes the direction to what it's flat. Moving from cupped to flat or bowed will close the face if everything else around that remains the same. So for example if you got cupped left wrist at address, you have to have your left forearm more pronated at impact with flat wrist than it was at address.

Not too simple geometry there, but I hope you get the idea.

#14 armydiver

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:11 AM

I understand that the wrist at impact is a result of the forces being applied and what you have already done through the swing. But to consistently get a square face at the top of the swing doesn't seem to be affected by my grip. This is contrary to what I thought I knew. Now I am thinking too much about my path going back and constantly wondering if my face is square, which is not a good thing.

#15 TeeAce

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:14 AM

View Postarmydiver, on 22 November 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

I understand that the wrist at impact is a result of the forces being applied and what you have already done through the swing. But to consistently get a square face at the top of the swing doesn't seem to be affected by my grip. This is contrary to what I thought I knew. Now I am thinking too much about my path going back and constantly wondering if my face is square, which is not a good thing.

You are right. I have seen lot of good players with open, shut and square face at transition. Also some who seem to be something but are really something else.
There is only one way it can make harm to the swing after all. It's when you start to fix it ;)


#16 RRFireblade

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:28 AM

The problem is when you change your grip you are also changing the relationship of your joints and upper part of your body.

When you change your grip you often have to make other compensations in your upper body to realize the positive affects of the change. Obviously every part of your body is connected and when you change one it has an impact on the others.

The other factor it is often times the subconscious mind jumps in to try and fix some of the things you are trying change ( sub conscious compensation) to get back to its previous comfort zone. This is why it is so difficult to make even a subtle change stick long term and become consistent.
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#17 mikpga

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:08 PM



In general, the more upright you will see more "toe down"...

...the more flat you will see more "face up"...

The more UP your lead arm goes, the less pronation of forearm, the more AROUND your lead arm goes the more it pronates...



#18 TeeAce

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:43 PM

View Postmikpga, on 22 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

In general, the more upright you will see more "toe down"...

...the more flat you will see more "face up"...

The more UP your lead arm goes, the less pronation of forearm, the more AROUND your lead arm goes the more it pronates...

Sorry, but that's not true if we follow official definitions. Pronation is only the rotation of the forearm, never used for whole arm. Flat swing is mainly produced by internal rotation of the lead shoulder and adduction of the arm. Pronation got not much to do with that

#19 kevcarter

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

View PostTeeAce, on 22 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

View Postmikpga, on 22 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

In general, the more upright you will see more "toe down"...

...the more flat you will see more "face up"...

The more UP your lead arm goes, the less pronation of forearm, the more AROUND your lead arm goes the more it pronates...

Sorry, but that's not true if we follow official definitions. Pronation is only the rotation of the forearm, never used for whole arm. Flat swing is mainly produced by internal rotation of the lead shoulder and adduction of the arm. Pronation got not much to do with that

MikPGA,

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#20 mikpga

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

Crap!


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