87 replies to this topic

[PingG10guy]

You guys think cp and cf are a look. lol They are just ranges and will look different on players depending on their specific pattern.

Don't look at a guys right arm from a still pic to make your judgment.

[SunkTheBirdie]

 rory.mcilroy.right.hand.angle.at.impact.png   414.1K   12 downloads

I see some slicefixer leverage there !
Rory must be doing the 9 to 3 drill.

[russc]

PingG10guy, on 21 November 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

You guys think cp and cf are a look. lol They are just ranges and will look different on players depending on their specific pattern.

Don't look at a guys right arm from a still pic to make your judgment.

I agree that  a still can be deceptive,but i think that Teeace's point was that 30 fps also misses very important information around the impact area.

[TeeAce]

PingG10guy, on 21 November 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

You guys think cp and cf are a look. lol They are just ranges and will look different on players depending on their specific pattern.

Don't look at a guys right arm from a still pic to make your judgment.

Of course not. I look both hands... or actually if they are here, I look graphs and that's how I learned to recognize it also from videos. There is many ways to see it.
And looking that right arm is in reality telling lot about the release type. You can't keep the right elbow in if you roll over your hands. Pure geometry.

[justinp766]

Everyone is overthinking this....

He has a very connected golf swing and thus ...never really gets stuck and flippy.

[chrisgilly09]

Funny stuff...

It's CF. IIRC its possible to angle hinge while CF, not even saying that's his pattern.

@DU- I remember the FB thread on this, it was rather contentious lol

[SurfinTurf]

justinp766, on 21 November 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Everyone is overthinking this....

He has a very connected golf swing and thus ...never really gets stuck and flippy.

Nice summary  

Interesting thread I thought.

[dana dahlquist]

Won't be home until later on west coast time. Just got off the range. Ill link a YouTube link ASAP.

[PingG10guy]

SunkTheBirdie, on 21 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

rory.mcilroy.right.hand.angle.at.impact.png

I see some slicefixer leverage

define that please...

[tofur99]

PingG10guy, on 22 November 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

SunkTheBirdie, on 21 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

rory.mcilroy.right.hand.angle.at.impact.png

I see some slicefixer leverage

define that please...

it's that levers thingy, you know, where you have levers....  and hit the ball with them, and everyone gasps and cheers at the sheer magnificence of the beauty of the levers.  If you don't have leverage your a nobody.  Nobody will like you, the golfing world will scoff at your feeble flippy strike and make it known through all the land that you don't have the leverage.

jk, I love leverage.  Just like I love lamp.  "Brick, do you really love the lamp, or are you just saying things you can see in the room?"   "....I love lamp"

[SunkTheBirdie]

PingG10guy, on 22 November 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

define that please...

 slicefixer.leverage.mcilroy.jpg   65.11K   1 downloads

I was attempting to use the word leverage, in the context of a slicefixer swing ( a pivot dominated, connected swing that uses less hand action through the impact zone ).

[iteachgolf]

Roty isn't close to CP.  his path at times is over 10* in to out. The probablem here is people creating different definitions for like terms.  Let's go with swing direction.  Rory's swing direction with driver is WAY right and he does hit it slightly out of the heel. Zach Johnson is another Who heels it a bit to not overdraw it. It's a pattern than can work extremely well just will be one dimensional, Rory will hit it sky high and struggle to hit cuts. His cuts are kind of pushes.  In the photos posted above in orange and when you watch on TV, look at how far left he aims when hitting a straight shot. Especially with short irons. This is to make the path at the target because his swing direction is right of his feet.  Similar to Trevino.  Anytime Rory aims straight is going to be a pretty big draw.  

I will say it's gotten better in the last 6-8 months and less exaggerated.  It's moving in a better direction and if he keeps going that direction he will be even better

[TeeAce]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Roty isn't close to CP.  his path at times is over 10* in to out.

I can't see that correlation. The handle can be moving as in CP and club head still 10 deg in to out. Instead of one swing direction there is two different.

[iteachgolf]

Again you've made up your own definition which isn't close to where the Morad definition is.  Which is why I said lets not use those terms but use swing direction.  Anyone who has shoulders open through impact and tilted will have the hands moving up and left through impact, so virtually ALL golfers who can break an egg.  Hands low point is around the right hip/leg and from there they move up and in. You people seem to think CF means a slingy disconnected release.  You can be VERY CF and have the right arm bent and shoulders open.  Again when your term of CP is way different than for instance morad's you will get confusion.

[TeeAce]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Again you've made up your own definition which isn't close to where the Morad definition is.  Which is why I said lets not use those terms but use swing direction.  Anyone who has shoulders open through impact and tilted will have the hands moving up and left through impact, so virtually ALL golfers who can break an egg.  Hands low point is around the right hip/leg and from there they move up and in. You people seem to think CF means a slingy disconnected release.  You can be VERY CF and have the right arm bent and shoulders open.  Again when your term of CP is way different than for instance morad's you will get confusion.

Sorry, I really didn't know that MORAD terms are only official. And I think there is also many other people who use those terms same way I do.

But majority of (even good) golfers got their hands moving about straight line and even in to out after impact. Ricky F comes first to my mind and also all 99% of players I have analyzed, including about 15 European tour or Challenge tour players. They get disconnected and sling their hands out which IMO is one very common way to describe CF release.

[iteachgolf]

If you think the majority of good players have there hands moving out post impact we have nothing more to talk about.  

You can read but not sure you get what I'm saying. Terms are useless if people use different definitions for them. You are missing the entire point of this discussion.  Point is, yes Rory swings very in to out and IMO too much so.  And yes, he tends to hit it off the heel which actually helps him take curve off of it.  It's not that uncommon.  When he gets path less in to out he will get even better than he is now

[TeeAce]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

If you think the majority of good players have there hands moving out post impact we have nothing more to talk about.  

You can read but not sure you get what I'm saying. Terms are useless if people use different definitions for them. You are missing the entire point of this discussion.  Point is, yes Rory swings very in to out and IMO too much so.  And yes, he tends to hit it off the heel which actually helps him take curve off of it.  It's not that uncommon.  When he gets path less in to out he will get even better than he is now

I can read and I got lot of material here. Not from videos, but real 3D-measurements and if I take all the pros and amateurs lower than 4 hdcp, more than 95% of them are swinging their hands straight or even out. And I'm talking about those swedish and finnish players I have measured, the culture there can be much better as well the knowledge overall. Anyway here when I told that, it has been revolutionary because no one did it like that before. As well the case that hands and club head don't move on any plane.

I don't really understand what you disagree with this. I use very common definition for that CF and you use Morads. Main thing is to understand what is happening there and I really put Ricky F to CF category and Rory more to CP category by how they move the handle. The club head path is then only dependent of wrist action and geometry

[iteachgolf]

Again you are getting into semantics.  At the end of the day it doesnt matter. Rory and Ricky are both CF, as was Trevino (in fact he was the CF fade model)


Here is my CF pattern (I don't practice much but it's not terrible).

[tylerdurden]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

If you think the majority of good players have there hands moving out post impact we have nothing more to talk about.  

James Hahn's move out post impact

[tylerdurden]

Nice swing

[iteachgolf]

tylerdurden, on 22 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

If you think the majority of good players have there hands moving out post impact we have nothing more to talk about.  

James Hahn's move out post impact

They don't and I'm not gonna even start this with you.

[TeeAce]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Again you are getting into semantics.  At the end of the day it doesnt matter. Rory and Ricky are both CF, as was Trevino (in fact he was the CF fade model)


Here is my CF pattern (I don't practice much but it's not terrible).

For me that's CP and this is CF. You think the club head, I look the handle.



And here are some measured hand paths (all pros from international level)  How many lines you really see rising after impact?



And don't get it wrong. I really want hands go left, but this is just to present how rare that movement really is

[hoganfan924]

Something doesn't seem to be adding up.  Teeace has been showing us graph after graph for months showing all of these players who's hands go left before impact (which strikes me as the norm) and now he says "95+% go DTL or right?"  Have I misunderstood something?

[TeeAce]

hoganfan924, on 22 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Something doesn't seem to be adding up.  Teeace has been showing us graph after graph for months showing all of these players who's hands go left before impact (which strikes me as the norm) and now he says "95+% go DTL or right?"  Have I misunderstood something?

I think so.

What I've been showing for months is what I want to happen and I've been using one or two players as an example of that. When I take these finnish pros graphs, I think I know why we don't have more players on Tours.

Remember that they are not my students or not doing what I want to happen. They are just players who visit me to get analyzed.

[russc]

Iteach
I do not like to use any Morad or Tgm terms because  except for those most conversant with them ,they tend to obfuscate more  than to  explain  Using terms such as CP or CF is like waving a red cape in front of a bull to many people.So humor me and stick to my definition of upper arm connection from just before to just after impact.Look at  this other video of Rory .Is this connection maintained just  past impact .No.Is the butt of the club everted ,almost.So if there was a couple more frames it would be obvious that Rory has not maintained that upper arm/torso connection
Now look at this video of Luke Donald.Again connection is not sustained past impact and the butt of the club is everted and this is even with an iron.Much more disconnection than RORY .easily.
I do not how it is possible to have your  right arm bent and shoulder open and have a slingy release UNLESS you are are taking a snapshot of just one position.With a more dynamic view ,I.e higher speed video would show that such a golfer is turning left with his torso(assuming that he has not stalled his pivot) and his right arm has straightened .And this type of move while happening  just after impact  has its genesis earlier.
To Dana's point about a more inside -out angle of attack  promoting a more slingy release,i could not agree more.
A related point which has been made previously by yourself and others is that more the shoulders are open at impact the easier it is to get that right elbow connected .

Edited by russc, 22 November 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[iteachgolf]

That video you can see how much right of his feet he is swinging.  He is swinging right in relation to the camera angle even though he is aimed way more left than the camera, look at how far left his feet and shoulders are in relation to camera at setup.  This should make him look like he is swinging quite a bit across the ball.  If camera angle was parallel to his stance line you would really see how far right he was swing

Other than than not sure what you are asking.  Your while post is more of a statement.

Edited by iteachgolf, 22 November 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[iteachgolf]

Example of how right he swings in relation to his feet and this is with an iron. It's much more so with driver.

[TeeAce]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Example of how right he swings in relation to his feet and this is with an iron. It's much more so with driver.

100% agree with that video. Looks just like those finnish pros and hands move toward the target

But is that video representing him now or is it older one? It doesn't look to me like Rory today

[russc]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

tylerdurden, on 22 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

If you think the majority of good players have there hands moving out post impact we have nothing more to talk about.  

James Hahn's move out post impact

They don't and I'm not gonna even start this with you.

maybe not out as  much but disconected arms from his torso

Edited by russc, 22 November 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[iteachgolf]

2 years ago

These both are from this year.  Like I said its moving right direction but stil VERY in to out. When he aims straight he hits ball that start WAY right and come all the way back.