87 replies to this topic

[russc]

TeeAce, on 22 November 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Again you are getting into semantics.  At the end of the day it doesnt matter. Rory and Ricky are both CF, as was Trevino (in fact he was the CF fade model)


Here is my CF pattern (I don't practice much but it's not terrible).

For me that's CP and this is CF. You think the club head, I look the handle.



And here are some measured hand paths (all pros from international level)  How many lines you really see rising after impact?



And don't get it wrong. I really want hands go left, but this is just to present how rare that movement really is

Richie Fowler is the poster child for a slingy  disconnected release which he combines with a major pivot stall.But  ALL touring pros  have  been blessed with off the charts natural ability and can make swings work  that for those rest of us mortals would cause  in poor results

Edited by russc, 22 November 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[iteachgolf]

Here's an extreme example.  Look at where he is aiming vs his swing direction. This is why when he is trying to hit straight shots he aims well left.

Compare to Folwer video above.  He may be slingy but his path is WAY more nuetral and club is actually kicking out towards the ball and way less behind him. Fowler hits a lot more fairways than Rory and they hit a similar number of greens. Fowler has what I'd consider better ball striking stats.  The difference is the putting and scrambling stats (averages only half a birdie more per round but averages two shots better because he makes few bogeys due to shortgame)

Edited by iteachgolf, 22 November 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[TeeAce]

Iteach, I think no one has said Rory swings his club head something else than in to out, and mostly too much, and also lefts his ball much to the right. But for me that is not at all a proof of CP / CF question.

I would, and I hope you accept me to do this definition, say that CF is something where you let the force of the club pull your hands out more than you pull them in and that makes them sling like Richie's. Usually connected to stalling pivot and kinetic chain idea.   The opposite, CP, is when forces pulling in are greater than forces that are pulling out and in that model hands are staying closer to the body and follow the body rotation more left at impact. And then there is about 1000 hybrid levels between those edges.

[iteachgolf]

Like I said, as you continue to miss the point, CP or CF doesn't matter what you wanna call it or define it as.  You can call it lion or zebra. Its semantics and helping nobody.  Point of the thread and OP was his swing direction and how it relates to contact to prevent overdraws.  He swings too far in to out and does tend to hit it off the heel, check the slow mo drivers posted and all but one are off heel.  His driving is by far his biggest weakness.  When he his hot he's as good as anyone but because of his drastic swing direction he will run hot and cold (see middle of year where in 5 events he missed 3 cuts and one of the cuts he did make was a t60).

He leads the tour in proximity to the hole from the fairway. Problem is he only hits just over 50% of his fairways and is 155th on tour in FIR.  If he hit more fairways he could have a record setting year, ala Tiger 2000-2001

Edited by iteachgolf, 22 November 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[TeeAce]

iteachgolf, on 22 November 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Like I said, as you continue to miss the point, CP or CF doesn't matter what you wanna call it or define it as.  You can call it lion or zebra. Its semantics and helping nobody.  

It has helped really many to understand it my way.

And you are right about the club head path and also about OT, but the discussion moved to this CP/CF and my comments has been for that, not the OP.

[Stretch]

Enjoying the discussion. Strikes me we really do need a better common terminology for talking about these concepts, though.

[golfdu]

Stretch, on 22 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Enjoying the discussion. Strikes me we really do need a better common terminology for talking about these concepts, though.

Yeah, people need to understand how clubhead and handle (or BOC, for butt end of club) relates in CP, CF, and Inline patterns.

[dana dahlquist]

Pretty much Dan nailed the answer.
Cp is nothing you can really see via film just by looking at the clubface.
Cp is also not very good for todays ball anyway, so unless your 125mph forget it.

I am still thinking about doing a video, but don't want a crazy email from you know who...

[Stretch]

golfdu, on 22 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Stretch, on 22 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Enjoying the discussion. Strikes me we really do need a better common terminology for talking about these concepts, though.

Yeah, people need to understand how clubhead and handle (or BOC, for butt end of club) relates in CP, CF, and Inline patterns.

So what would be the preferred descriptors?

Seems like "Swing Direction" is now fairly standard (although you do still hear "HSP" or "Baseline", but at least everyone's talking about the same thing).

"Club Path" is also well understood, but becomes potentially unclear once we start describing what the different ends of the club are doing at the same time. "Sweet Spot Path" preferable?

Hands/handle -- I don't really know. "Hand Path" seems to fit with "Club Path", if we're using that. Also see "Handle Location" a fair bit, "Handle Path" somewhat less. Gonna stay away from anything with "Butt" in it, for obvious reasons.

[golfdu]

Stretch, on 23 November 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

golfdu, on 22 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Stretch, on 22 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Enjoying the discussion. Strikes me we really do need a better common terminology for talking about these concepts, though.

Yeah, people need to understand how clubhead and handle (or BOC, for butt end of club) relates in CP, CF, and Inline patterns.

So what would be the preferred descriptors?

Seems like "Swing Direction" is now fairly standard (although you do still hear "HSP" or "Baseline", but at least everyone's talking about the same thing).

"Club Path" is also well understood, but becomes potentially unclear once we start describing what the different ends of the club are doing at the same time. "Sweet Spot Path" preferable?

Hands/handle -- I don't really know. "Hand Path" seems to fit with "Club Path", if we're using that. Also see "Handle Location" a fair bit, "Handle Path" somewhat less. Gonna stay away from anything with "Butt" in it, for obvious reasons.

Well, Vijay is CP for sure (I also use CP/CF/Inline for HSP or Swing Direction as you say it. IMO, Online should be for 0'ed Club Path) no matter how many people say he is CF, you can be CP with his release after P7. Both "Hand Path" and "Club Path" are on concentric arcs since you know, the club is always on a tilted angle

[TeeAce]

Stretch, on 23 November 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

golfdu, on 22 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Stretch, on 22 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Enjoying the discussion. Strikes me we really do need a better common terminology for talking about these concepts, though.

Yeah, people need to understand how clubhead and handle (or BOC, for butt end of club) relates in CP, CF, and Inline patterns.

So what would be the preferred descriptors?

Seems like "Swing Direction" is now fairly standard (although you do still hear "HSP" or "Baseline", but at least everyone's talking about the same thing).

"Club Path" is also well understood, but becomes potentially unclear once we start describing what the different ends of the club are doing at the same time. "Sweet Spot Path" preferable?

Hands/handle -- I don't really know. "Hand Path" seems to fit with "Club Path", if we're using that. Also see "Handle Location" a fair bit, "Handle Path" somewhat less. Gonna stay away from anything with "Butt" in it, for obvious reasons.

IMO all those are very much simplified and based on distortions of videos and plane thinking. I don't want to blame anyone using that as it has been the culture of teaching for decades, but maybe someday we can take a step ahead and start to see it different way.

When we were starting the 4DSwing project, first graphs I asked them to do was plane graphs and I was very confused when our team asked me to define it. I felt that kind of stupid question because it has been so clear to all of us who has been working around the game for years. It was for me the plane where the club was moving. I got more confused when they told me they cant find it

I tried to define it many ways, but ended up every time that there is not at all one plane where things are moving, specially not at all one where both ends of the club were moving to the same direction even in 2D at the same moment. Actually there is one millisecond period when it happens, but nothing more. Where ever we put that plane line, everything was all the time moving away or toward it, but shaft was still always on plane and that confused me even more.

So after a while we moved our interest to path and I think that opened my eyes, as it has made the same for many players after that. Here is the graph of hand and club head path from tour-level player to make it more clear.



The black horizontal line is the target line and those blue and red are telling the objects distance from that, as blue representing hands (actually left wrist) and the red is representing club head and the time is running from left to right as transition and impact are marked with vertical red lines. We can clearly see that most of the time they are moving quite perpendicular to each other and not at all to the same direction.

The biggest difference between these better players and average joe is just in these graphs and how much those lines are going across to each other. Here is one example of the 12 hdcp player who has always tried to be on plane and move on it



You see the difference is huge.

So my question after this is: What is the swing direction, as we can see those two lines are going about perpendicular to each other?  is there one or is there more swing directions to understand and how they are produced? What actions of the player affects to the but end path and what to the club head path?

And yes... there is so much more in 3D (4D) that I don't even go there yet, but can say when we see from videos, both DTL and FO how the hands are moving toward the ball, 90% of that can be distortion and in reality something else is happening.

I hope Jim Waldron is still hanging around here as we had good start for discussion about those distortions couple of years ago but never had time to go deeper with that. His view and thought about these would be very appreciated.

Tapio

[PingG10guy]

dana dahlquist, on 22 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

I am still thinking about doing a video, but don't want a crazy email from you know who...

i think you should do the vid.  Too many guys trying to reinvent definitions for stuff that has already been defined.  If you get a creepy email just drop it in the spam folder lol

[tembolo1284]

Didn't someone say CP is no good anymore unless you swing 125mph. Where is that post?

[Stretch]

Five back from yours?

[dana dahlquist]

Few months back, I wrote about CF and CP.
CP- Is a baseline shifted pattern
CF- is a Rightward shifted pattern

We have to look at overtaking rates and hinge actions with actual HsP

But none of this really matters in todays age or for as far as Im concerned people reading this page. Speed is the issue.

Both these players are CF patterns, but by photos you can't tell much. Both on Trackman are CF too.

 Casey Martin dtl 2012 US Open_0001.jpg   31.88K   4 downloads  CIMG5823_0001.jpg   53.1K   9 downloads

[TeeAce]

Dana, can you tell me how you can see from Trackman if someone is CF or CP pattern.

I think this really need to be better defined if TM is used to prove that.

[russc]

dana dahlquist, on 23 November 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Few months back, I wrote about CF and CP.
CP- Is a baseline shifted pattern
CF- is a Rightward shifted pattern

We have to look at overtaking rates and hinge actions with actual HsP

But none of this really matters in todays age or for as far as Im concerned people reading this page. Speed is the issue.

Both these players are CF patterns, but by photos you can't tell much. Both on Trackman are CF too.

Casey Martin dtl 2012 US Open_0001.jpg CIMG5823_0001.jpg

Dana
Forgetting about this cf , cp or connected argument for a while,the part of your post  which is concerning is "speed is the issue".Would please go into  more detail about this point

Edited by russc, 24 November 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[Jim Waldron]

Tee, I do read these threads from time to time but usually refrain from participating because I know from long experience how easy it is for everyone reading to quickly become confused, especially since the terms used are often not clearly described, and even if they are, not always agreed upon by instructors, so you end up with a lot of heated back and forth, a lot of heat - not much light.  I also know that in our golf schools where we spend a lot of time exposing the really important 2D Illusions, that even then with in person demonstration, those Illusions are often quite difficult to see through for most average golfers. I think the unquestioned bias/premise of these very technical discussions about release and impact is that if someone finally "figured out" what is exactly happening with one of the top ballstrikers on tour golf swing, in perfect detail, in terms of hand path, clubhead path, handle pitch, shaft pitch, face angle, low point, etc. that then the "mystery" of the golf swing would forever be solved, and then anyone who intellectually digested this very technical info would then be able to reproduce it in their own swing. All of my teacing experience over 20 years tells me that this is not the case. Even when the intellectual mind understands this stuff, it helps very little - or even not at all for many golfers - to actually physically reproduce it in an actual golf swing. There are much more effective paths one can take as a teacher and a student that will allow the student to really breakthrough to better ballstriking without thinking about any of this stuff. The Answer lies not so much in what the conscious mind needs to "do" in the golf swing but much more in what the conscious mind needs to "not do".

[dana dahlquist]

Jim pretty much sums it up above.
The actual 3D moment of the plane is never visible on 2D camera. You can get a rough estimation, but you can't calculate the AOA.
Yes experience in the visual perspective on what the ball is doing if its center hit will work to a degree.

The actual CP model produces a Leftward HSP and more down which is sub-optimal. Thus you need way more speed to keep the ball in the air.

This is pretty much the short answer with out going into the geometry of the arc and triangles..

Look its all public knowledge , just have to see whats ideal.
Had a guy in the Darom crew yesterday hit drivers head high for two minutes then got him to launch it by changing his HSP and a few other little deals. Ball carry when 20 yards farther and higher. Speed changed 2mph at most.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

How does Rory prevent over-draws??? Pretty simple, he just deposits Nike's $250 million into one account.

[russc]

dana dahlquist, on 24 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Jim pretty much sums it up above.
The actual 3D moment of the plane is never visible on 2D camera. You can get a rough estimation, but you can't calculate the AOA.
Yes experience in the visual perspective on what the ball is doing if its center hit will work to a degree.

The actual CP model produces a Leftward HSP and more down which is sub-optimal. Thus you need way more speed to keep the ball in the air.

This is pretty much the short answer with out going into the geometry of the arc and triangles..

Look its all public knowledge , just have to see whats ideal.
Had a guy in the Darom crew yesterday hit drivers head high for two minutes then got him to launch it by changing his HSP and a few other little deals. Ball carry when 20 yards farther and higher. Speed changed 2mph at most.

Tell me if I am incorrect ,but the way to maximize distance is to hit the ball with a slightly  upward angle of attack.To do so requires a golfer to play the ball a little farther up .Because the ball is hit  on slightly upward angle of attack  ,teeing the ball up higher is probably needed to hit the ball in the sweet spot .With the ball played further up to maximize distance  the downswing path  can best be described as even more  up and out and therefore can not meet the definition of a cp release?

[rafal]

KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 24 November 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

How does Rory prevent over-draws??? Pretty simple, he just deposits Nike's $250 million into one account.

And, in the future, making sure that's not a spouse-shared account.

[golfdu]

russc, on 24 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

dana dahlquist, on 24 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Jim pretty much sums it up above.
The actual 3D moment of the plane is never visible on 2D camera. You can get a rough estimation, but you can't calculate the AOA.
Yes experience in the visual perspective on what the ball is doing if its center hit will work to a degree.

The actual CP model produces a Leftward HSP and more down which is sub-optimal. Thus you need way more speed to keep the ball in the air.

This is pretty much the short answer with out going into the geometry of the arc and triangles..

Look its all public knowledge , just have to see whats ideal.
Had a guy in the Darom crew yesterday hit drivers head high for two minutes then got him to launch it by changing his HSP and a few other little deals. Ball carry when 20 yards farther and higher. Speed changed 2mph at most.

Tell me if I am incorrect ,but the way to maximize distance is to hit the ball with a slightly  upward angle of attack.To do so requires a golfer to play the ball a little farther up .Because the ball is hit  on slightly upward angle of attack  ,teeing the ball up higher is probably needed to hit the ball in the sweet spot .With the ball played further up to maximize distance  the downswing path  can best be described as even more  up and out and therefore can not meet the definition of a cp release?

When AoA is up, baseline is shifted left 3-D, so HSP has to be more rightward in order to shift 3-D club path rightward for a push-draw driver shot.

Assume we want a 3* rightward 3-D club path with 5* upward AoA. If we had 0* HSP, 3-D club path would be 5* LEFTWARD because for every 1* of upward AoA, 3-D path is LEFTWARD by 1*. We need to have the HSP 8* RIGHTWARD in order to have a 3* RIGHTWARD 3-D club path with 5* upward AoA. Think of it like this way, -5 + 8 = 3!

[TeeAce]

dana dahlquist, on 24 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Jim pretty much sums it up above.
The actual 3D moment of the plane is never visible on 2D camera. You can get a rough estimation, but you can't calculate the AOA.
Yes experience in the visual perspective on what the ball is doing if its center hit will work to a degree.

The actual CP model produces a Leftward HSP and more down which is sub-optimal. Thus you need way more speed to keep the ball in the air.

This is pretty much the short answer with out going into the geometry of the arc and triangles..

Look its all public knowledge , just have to see whats ideal.
Had a guy in the Darom crew yesterday hit drivers head high for two minutes then got him to launch it by changing his HSP and a few other little deals. Ball carry when 20 yards farther and higher. Speed changed 2mph at most.

So Dana, correct me if I understood it badly, but in your thoughts CP and CF can be seen from club head directly?

[KE60Ping]

Dang, what a post and response session... I can see a biography coming... "How Rory Went From Wiffs to Preventing OverDraws"...hopefully not written by Paula Broadwell

[kellygreen]

dana dahlquist, on 23 November 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Few months back, I wrote about CF and CP.
CP- Is a baseline shifted pattern
CF- is a Rightward shifted pattern

We have to look at overtaking rates and hinge actions with actual HsP

But none of this really matters in todays age or for as far as Im concerned people reading this page. Speed is the issue.

Both these players are CF patterns, but by photos you can't tell much. Both on Trackman are CF too.

Casey Martin dtl 2012 US Open_0001.jpg CIMG5823_0001.jpg

Both of these players are golfers who control the rotation (and release) of the club partially with their body rotation, and partially with arm rotation.  What I referred to earlier as a "hybrid" release.  The male golfer more with his arms...the female more with her body rotation.

Remember that "models" are an artificial "order" that we impose upon a reality that doesn't always fit into nice, neat, never-outside-the-lines categories.

Imo, rssc terminology comes closer to what the reality is among players:  connection vs synchronization.   Players who control the rotation (and release) of the club with their arms generally have swings where the arms and the body work in synchrony ("rhythm and tempo"/"feel") but there is no firm connection between the trunk and the upper arm.   Especially on the right side. Such players, in order to square the clubface with arm rotation have to have the arm come AWAY from the body through the hitting zone.

Players (OTOH) who control the rotation and release of the club primarily with their body rotation have to have swings where the arms and the body work in a CONNECTED fashion.  Again, especially on the right side.   With the right upper arm remaining connected to the trunk through the hitting area.

[TeeAce]

kellygreen, on 26 November 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

dana dahlquist, on 23 November 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Few months back, I wrote about CF and CP.
CP- Is a baseline shifted pattern
CF- is a Rightward shifted pattern

We have to look at overtaking rates and hinge actions with actual HsP

But none of this really matters in todays age or for as far as Im concerned people reading this page. Speed is the issue.

Both these players are CF patterns, but by photos you can't tell much. Both on Trackman are CF too.

Casey Martin dtl 2012 US Open_0001.jpg CIMG5823_0001.jpg

Both of these players are golfers who control the rotation (and release) of the club partially with their body rotation, and partially with arm rotation.  What I referred to earlier as a "hybrid" release.  The male golfer more with his arms...the female more with her body rotation.

Remember that "models" are an artificial "order" that we impose upon a reality that doesn't always fit into nice, neat, never-outside-the-lines categories.

Imo, rssc terminology comes closer to what the reality is among players:  connection vs synchronization.   Players who control the rotation (and release) of the club with their arms generally have swings where the arms and the body work in synchrony ("rhythm and tempo"/"feel") but there is no firm connection between the trunk and the upper arm.   Especially on the right side. Such players, in order to square the clubface with arm rotation have to have the arm come AWAY from the body through the hitting zone.

Players (OTOH) who control the rotation and release of the club primarily with their body rotation have to have swings where the arms and the body work in a CONNECTED fashion.  Again, especially on the right side.   With the right upper arm remaining connected to the trunk through the hitting area.

Good post and that's how I understand the difference. Actually as there is no real force as CF, there is two opposite forces to what club, hands and arms are reacting. Centripetal and Tangential.  

In my definitions CP is produced when centripetal force (dragging the object to the center of rotation) is higher than tangential which is pulling it out during the swing. And then there is all 1000 models at the grey zone between those 2.

That's why I asked about that Trackman data, because I can't see the club head has to move any different ways on those two. Everything else in body geometry can be different, but club head is still moving to the same direction

[PingG10guy]

kellygreen, on 26 November 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

dana dahlquist, on 23 November 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Few months back, I wrote about CF and CP.
CP- Is a baseline shifted pattern
CF- is a Rightward shifted pattern

We have to look at overtaking rates and hinge actions with actual HsP

But none of this really matters in todays age or for as far as Im concerned people reading this page. Speed is the issue.

Both these players are CF patterns, but by photos you can't tell much. Both on Trackman are CF too.

Casey Martin dtl 2012 US Open_0001.jpg CIMG5823_0001.jpg

Both of these players are golfers who control the rotation (and release) of the club partially with their body rotation, and partially with arm rotation.  What I referred to earlier as a "hybrid" release.  The male golfer more with his arms...the female more with her body rotation.

Remember that "models" are an artificial "order" that we impose upon a reality that doesn't always fit into nice, neat, never-outside-the-lines categories.

Imo, rssc terminology comes closer to what the reality is among players:  connection vs synchronization.   Players who control the rotation (and release) of the club with their arms generally have swings where the arms and the body work in synchrony ("rhythm and tempo"/"feel") but there is no firm connection between the trunk and the upper arm.   Especially on the right side. Such players, in order to square the clubface with arm rotation have to have the arm come AWAY from the body through the hitting zone.

Players (OTOH) who control the rotation and release of the club primarily with their body rotation have to have swings where the arms and the body work in a CONNECTED fashion.  Again, especially on the right side.   With the right upper arm remaining connected to the trunk through the hitting area.

no...now your leaving out what the reality is.  Its not connection, because connection of the right arm to the trunk means less armswing and a more punchy type release (think right arm straighter faster traditional SnT type stuff).

Its speed and angles vs ideal.  It really is that complicated.  When you summarize it, you miss things.  Considering the wealth of info placed in this thread, the last thing you should be doing is using the word reality.  But hey I learned a lot.

Dana and Dan are the $%^&!