Stretch, on 23 November 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:
golfdu, on 22 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:
Stretch, on 22 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:
Enjoying the discussion. Strikes me we really do need a better common terminology for talking about these concepts, though.
Yeah, people need to understand how clubhead and handle (or BOC, for butt end of club) relates in CP, CF, and Inline patterns.
So what would be the preferred descriptors?
Seems like "Swing Direction" is now fairly standard (although you do still hear "HSP" or "Baseline", but at least everyone's talking about the same thing).
"Club Path" is also well understood, but becomes potentially unclear once we start describing what the different ends of the club are doing at the same time. "Sweet Spot Path" preferable?
Hands/handle -- I don't really know. "Hand Path" seems to fit with "Club Path", if we're using that. Also see "Handle Location" a fair bit, "Handle Path" somewhat less. Gonna stay away from anything with "Butt" in it, for obvious reasons.
IMO all those are very much simplified and based on distortions of videos and plane thinking. I don't want to blame anyone using that as it has been the culture of teaching for decades, but maybe someday we can take a step ahead and start to see it different way.
When we were starting the 4DSwing project, first graphs I asked them to do was plane graphs and I was very confused when our team asked me to define it. I felt that kind of stupid question because it has been so clear to all of us who has been working around the game for years. It was for me the plane where the club was moving. I got more confused when they told me they cant find it
I tried to define it many ways, but ended up every time that there is not at all one plane where things are moving, specially not at all one where both ends of the club were moving to the same direction even in 2D at the same moment. Actually there is one millisecond period when it happens, but nothing more. Where ever we put that plane line, everything was all the time moving away or toward it, but shaft was still always on plane and that confused me even more.
So after a while we moved our interest to path and I think that opened my eyes, as it has made the same for many players after that. Here is the graph of hand and club head path from tour-level player to make it more clear.
The black horizontal line is the target line and those blue and red are telling the objects distance from that, as blue representing hands (actually left wrist) and the red is representing club head and the time is running from left to right as transition and impact are marked with vertical red lines. We can clearly see that most of the time they are moving quite perpendicular to each other and not at all to the same direction.
The biggest difference between these better players and average joe is just in these graphs and how much those lines are going across to each other. Here is one example of the 12 hdcp player who has always tried to be on plane and move on it
You see the difference is huge.
So my question after this is: What is the swing direction, as we can see those two lines are going about perpendicular to each other? is there one or is there more swing directions to understand and how they are produced? What actions of the player affects to the but end path and what to the club head path?
And yes... there is so much more in 3D (4D) that I don't even go there yet, but can say when we see from videos, both DTL and FO how the hands are moving toward the ball, 90% of that can be distortion and in reality something else is happening.
I hope Jim Waldron is still hanging around here as we had good start for discussion about those distortions couple of years ago but never had time to go deeper with that. His view and thought about these would be very appreciated.