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How Rory prevents over-draws


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#1 golfdu

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:54 AM

He hits it on the heel. Anyone agree?


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#2 MadGolfer76

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:14 AM

Umm...no.
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#3 golfdu

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:29 AM

Rory is so CF that he either has two things to prevent over-draws, adjust the face angle so that it's proper face-to-path relationship for a huge CF push-draw (rightward swing direction for driver is 10+) or hit the heel to tighten the draw and stop the hooks. Rory wouldn't do a major overhaul just to change his swing direction and ruin the months of playing making the change, so he hits the heel. DD (Dana Dahlquist) and DoctorLoomis (Joseph Mayo, or TrackManMaestro) knows he does hit the heel.

#4 MadGolfer76

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:27 AM

View Postgolfdu, on 21 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Rory is so CF that he either has two things to prevent over-draws, adjust the face angle so that it's proper face-to-path relationship for a huge CF push-draw (rightward swing direction for driver is 10+) or hit the heel to tighten the draw and stop the hooks. Rory wouldn't do a major overhaul just to change his swing direction and ruin the months of playing making the change, so he hits the heel. DD (Dana Dahlquist) and DoctorLoomis (Joseph Mayo, or TrackManMaestro) knows he does hit the heel.

So then, are you asking or telling? Because now it is starting to sound like you aren't asking, which makes ME ask why you phrased it that way in the beginning. Was this supposed to be a surprise for all of us or something? In any case, I still doubt that he would hitting heel shots all the time. Slightly off center, maybe (though still doubtful), but off the heel? C'mon. Show me some impact tape or I won't believe it.
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#5 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:32 AM

View Postgolfdu, on 21 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

Rory is so CF that he either has two things to prevent over-draws, adjust the face angle so that it's proper face-to-path relationship for a huge CF push-draw (rightward swing direction for driver is 10+) or hit the heel to tighten the draw and stop the hooks. Rory wouldn't do a major overhaul just to change his swing direction and ruin the months of playing making the change, so he hits the heel. DD (Dana Dahlquist) and DoctorLoomis (Joseph Mayo, or TrackManMaestro) knows he does hit the heel.

CF?  I have to disagree. He would never got his right elbow like this.

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#6 Ranger Rick

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:58 AM

Not sure if I agree. Rory is a mix of CP and CF. As you can see he has the right elbow really tight to his body through impact however he does release heavily down the line and roll his wrists over, especially with the driver.

He prevents hooks (and this is more evident in his recent swing changes) by coming in a bit shallower, thus holding the face open a touch longer and preventing it from closing relative to his path.

#7 Gbyeball

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:04 AM

Great pictures Teeace and it illustrates what I was just going to say : He clears his body like crazy. Just look at how open his hips and even his shoulders are compared to his toe line.
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#8 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:13 AM

View PostRanger Rick, on 21 November 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not sure if I agree. Rory is a mix of CP and CF. As you can see he has the right elbow really tight to his body through impact however he does release heavily down the line and roll his wrists over, especially with the driver.

He prevents hooks (and this is more evident in his recent swing changes) by coming in a bit shallower, thus holding the face open a touch longer and preventing it from closing relative to his path.

That has been just the belief for many many years before high speed cameras came available and people were able to see the truth. In reality all good players has found their way to prevent that rolling through the impact and that roll over happens much later than was thought 10 years ago. And they have made it even no matter what they have been told to do.

If you look those images I posted, at the second the ball is already left the face, but there is no marks that roll over has begun and that right hand is still under the left and right elbow in. What happens after that is mainly about how their body is working and can it keep up the rotation speeds to balance that force created to the club. But the ball has gone already.

#9 kellygreen

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:55 AM

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

View PostRanger Rick, on 21 November 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not sure if I agree. Rory is a mix of CP and CF. As you can see he has the right elbow really tight to his body through impact however he does release heavily down the line and roll his wrists over, especially with the driver.

He prevents hooks (and this is more evident in his recent swing changes) by coming in a bit shallower, thus holding the face open a touch longer and preventing it from closing relative to his path.

That has been just the belief for many many years before high speed cameras came available and people were able to see the truth. In reality all good players has found their way to prevent that rolling through the impact and that roll over happens much later than was thought 10 years ago. And they have made it even no matter what they have been told to do.

If you look those images I posted, at the second the ball is already left the face, but there is no marks that roll over has begun and that right hand is still under the left and right elbow in. What happens after that is mainly about how their body is working and can it keep up the rotation speeds to balance that force created to the club. But the ball has gone already.

The issue isn't "rollover".  The issue (between the different types of releases) whether or not the clubface has to rotate back-to-square...and at what point in the down swing it occurs.

In a CF release, the clubface has to aggressively rotate back to square on the downswing...and this rotation occurs LATE in the downswing and into the hitting zone.   In order to accomodate this rotation, the arms have to work independantly (but in rythmic synchronization) with the rotation of the body early in the downswing, then indendantly through the hitting zone as the body rotation stalls to allow the arms to release PAST the body.

Rory McIlroy is not this kind of player.  Guys like Bubba Watson, Phil Mickelson, Luke Donald,  and Fred Couples are.

In a CP release, what rotation there is of the clubface on the downswing is largely controlled by the rotation of the body and occurs EARLY in the down swing.  In order to accomodate this, the arms have to connect firmly to the body and carried through the hitting zone by the body's rotation.  There is no rotational stall like you see in CF swings.  This is what creates the look of the right arm being close to the body, and the club "swinging left" right after impact.   As well as the fact that the arms appear not to "rollover" until very deep into the followthrough.

Hunter Mahan, Jason Dufner and Ben Hogan are these kinds of players.

You also have players who have "hybrid" releases where elements of the CP and CF release are combined.  That is the club is released by a combination of body rotation and arm rotation.   At the more "CF" end of the scale you have players like Nick Faldo, Nick Price, Tiger Woods ca 2000, and Adam Scott. At the more "CP" end of the scale you have players like Rory McIlroy, Justin Rose, and Tiger's current swing.   Though I see evidence that TW is moving towards a more purely CP release in his swing.

When Rory is playing well he keeps the hook at bay by keeping his arms more closely connected to his body during the downswing. That acts to slow down the release of the clubhead, and makes his release one at more the "CP end of the hybrid range.

When his timing is off, and he's fighting a hook, his arms lose their connection to his body and he starts to "slot" the club (drop vertically) from the top.   This causes his arms to work more independantly of his body rotation, allows his release to speed up...and his release to move more towards the "CF" end of the hybrid range.

Which...with his swing...causes him to over-release the club and hook the ball.

Edited by kellygreen, 21 November 2012 - 09:00 AM.

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#10 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

Kellygreen, I agree what you said, but I don't see that any opposite to my post. Rather deeper analyze.

But I also think your first example got lot to do with roll over as it has to happen at shorter period and easily goes over and too early, just by reasons you said. And the confusing point what I meant is that after 2-3 ft beyond impact they look about same and both players have had that roll over already. The difference is in some inches area around the impact.


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#11 borker

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:34 AM

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

If you look those images I posted, at the second the ball is already left the face, but there is no marks that roll over has begun and that right hand is still under the left and right elbow in.

The problem with stills is they are exactly that.. STILLS! They are motionless frames in time that do not capture what IS happening but rather what happened at the moment they were taken. You can see the clubhead closing in these stills though, despite it being very little since they are so close together. He isn't holding anything off. Infact, watching the actual motion of his swing in vids you can see he is rotating to a cross-over type release all through impact. The clubface is shut at P5 and when it clears his body in the follow through (DTL), the face is almost pointing to the ground.

But those are great stills and actually he DOES appear to be hitting it more towards the heel as original poster alludes to. He may be right evidenced by these stills. Any more this detailed?
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#12 atlanta golfer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:45 AM

Sorry for the dumb question but what does CP and CF stand for?

#13 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:03 AM

View Postborker, on 21 November 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

If you look those images I posted, at the second the ball is already left the face, but there is no marks that roll over has begun and that right hand is still under the left and right elbow in.

The problem with stills is they are exactly that.. STILLS! They are motionless frames in time that do not capture what IS happening but rather what happened at the moment they were taken. You can see the clubhead closing in these stills though, despite it being very little since they are so close together. He isn't holding anything off. Infact, watching the actual motion of his swing in vids you can see he is rotating to a cross-over type release all through impact. The clubface is shut at P5 and when it clears his body in the follow through (DTL), the face is almost pointing to the ground.

But those are great stills and actually he DOES appear to be hitting it more towards the heel as original poster alludes to. He may be right evidenced by these stills. Any more this detailed?

That's exactly why I like more good quality stills than video, specially I kind of hate 30fps videos and never use them. It just hides those small differences and makes us to see big view of motion that might look the same, even it has gone different way and by different action. Or even acton for some players and reaction for others with same looking result.

The most interesting part of the club head behave for me is from few inches before to few inches past impact. In some cases even bit longer period. And when you spend lot of time with high speed videos you start to see huge differences there between players.

#14 kellygreen

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Kellygreen, I agree what you said, but I don't see that any opposite to my post. Rather deeper analyze.

But I also think your first example got lot to do with roll over as it has to happen at shorter period and easily goes over and too early, just by reasons you said. And the confusing point what I meant is that after 2-3 ft beyond impact they look about same and both players have had that roll over already. The difference is in some inches area around the impact.

In hybrid and CF releases---if one just looks at the arms---they may look the same.

But CP releases look different...and hybrid releases look different if you also look at the body.  A player with a hybrid release will have his body rotated more open, than a player with a purely CF release.

Luke Donald----CF

http://juniorlinks.c...ldSequence2.jpg

Sixth frame, his shoulders are only starting to open to the target line despite the club nearly being at impact.
Seventh frame, by the "3 O'clock " position, his right arm has worked out away from his body; his right arm has rolled over his left, and his clubhead is toe-up, parallel to the body line, and with the face pointing perpendicular to it.

Adam Scott----hybrid release



At 0:20, Scott is just past impact.  His shoulders are much more open to the target line than Donald's, and his arm is still firmly connected to his trunk.

At 0:21, Scott is nearly at 3 o'clock.  But unlike Donald, his shoulders are now very open and his club shaft is still closely tracking the center of his trunk.  But (making it a hybrid release) you can see that his arm is now working out away from his body, the arms are starting to crossover, and the toe of the clubhead to rotate away from square to the body.

Hunter Mahan----CP release.



At 0:09, Mahan is at impact, and his shoulders are also very open to the target line and his right arm still firmly connected to his body.

At 0:10, Mahan is nearly at 3 o'clock, and his club is working so much around his body that it has nearly disappeared in front of him.  His clubshaft is still completely square to his chest, there is no evidence of any "rollover" of the arms, or any significant rotation of the clubface.

So the releases look very different, and the followthroughs look different if you look at the entirety of the swings.

In a true CF release, the body simply supports the swinging of the arms, and all clubface rotation is controlled by the arms.   In hybrid and CP releases, an increasing amount of the clubface rotation is controlled by the rotation of the body, and the arms become relatively passive.  Until you get to a Mahan-type release where the clubface is controlled almost entirely by body rotation.
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#15 MDP1555

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:12 AM

View Postgolfdu, on 21 November 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

He hits it on the heel. Anyone agree?

There is a little bit of truth to this as the bulge of the face will to some degree counteract the right to left achieved by path (gear affect of bulge)

Now if Rory does this intentionally or instintivly?

Edited by MDP1555, 21 November 2012 - 10:12 AM.


#16 hoganfan924

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:14 AM

Well, in those pictures, it certainly appears that he hit that shot very slightly towards the heel.  His radar stats show that he's T100 for smash factor, so mid-pack.

#17 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:28 AM

View Postkellygreen, on 21 November 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Kellygreen, I agree what you said, but I don't see that any opposite to my post. Rather deeper analyze.

But I also think your first example got lot to do with roll over as it has to happen at shorter period and easily goes over and too early, just by reasons you said. And the confusing point what I meant is that after 2-3 ft beyond impact they look about same and both players have had that roll over already. The difference is in some inches area around the impact.

In hybrid and CF releases---if one just looks at the arms---they may look the same.

But CP releases look different...and hybrid releases look different if you also look at the body.  A player with a hybrid release will have his body rotated more open, than a player with a purely CF release.

Luke Donald----CF

http://juniorlinks.c...ldSequence2.jpg

Sixth frame, his shoulders are only starting to open to the target line despite the club nearly being at impact.
Seventh frame, by the "3 O'clock " position, his right arm has worked out away from his body; his right arm has rolled over his left, and his clubhead is toe-up, parallel to the body line, and with the face pointing perpendicular to it.

Adam Scott----hybrid release



At 0:20, Scott is just past impact.  His shoulders are much more open to the target line than Donald's, and his arm is still firmly connected to his trunk.

At 0:21, Scott is nearly at 3 o'clock.  But unlike Donald, his shoulders are now very open and his club shaft is still closely tracking the center of his trunk.  But (making it a hybrid release) you can see that his arm is now working out away from his body, the arms are starting to crossover, and the toe of the clubhead to rotate away from square to the body.

Hunter Mahan----CP release.



At 0:09, Mahan is at impact, and his shoulders are also very open to the target line and his right arm still firmly connected to his body.

At 0:10, Mahan is nearly at 3 o'clock, and his club is working so much around his body that it has nearly disappeared in front of him.  His clubshaft is still completely square to his chest, there is no evidence of any "rollover" of the arms, or any significant rotation of the clubface.

So the releases look very different, and the followthroughs look different if you look at the entirety of the swings.

In a true CF release, the body simply supports the swinging of the arms, and all clubface rotation is controlled by the arms.   In hybrid and CP releases, an increasing amount of the clubface rotation is controlled by the rotation of the body, and the arms become relatively passive.  Until you get to a Mahan-type release where the clubface is controlled almost entirely by body rotation.

Yes, you are very right there. I was talking about how the hands and club relation looks like.

I also know something about those body positions in different types of release as to research those in 3D has been my main job for almost 8 years now ;)

And there is still one more group. Those players who turn open too early and who are open from shoulders at impact but with high deceleration. That is very hard to see from video. it has to be measured.

#18 russc

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:01 AM

Previously discussions concerning differences between the Cf and CP release have devolved into long winded disagreements
Instead of using the terms  Cf or CP, I would prefer to use the term connected upper arms to the torso from just  before to just after impact.Those golfers with connected  upper arms/torso will have their shoulders more open at impact,while  those without  as much will have their shoulders more square at impact.The more square the shoulders the more likely the club will release"down the line"The butt of the club will tend to disappear considerably before the clubhead among those golfers with this upper arm connection.Those with little upper arm connection will tend to evert the butt of the club  in their follow through ,some to the extent that the the butt of the club is almost facing away from the target .One must also be careful in choosing the club in determining this connection .Many golfers ,even those who evert the club with a driver have much more of a connected upper arm/torso position with the wedge.Relatively few golfers are able to  maintain this upper arm /torso connection with a driver.The reason for this is simple.Setup.With a  driver,the ball  is usually played farther up in the stance,with less bend to the ball and more overall body tilt.This setup makes a it much more likely that a player makes  a shallow approach going down and hits more UP and OUT
There have been  terrific golfers with both types of upper arms/torso connection and even some with   hybrid as Kellygreen mentions.But by definition those who do not have this upper arm /torso   connection are making their swing more complicated(more moving parts)and are creating more dependency on timing with the small muscles of the hands,wrists,forearms.

Edited by russc, 21 November 2012 - 11:09 AM.


#19 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:23 AM

View Postrussc, on 21 November 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Previously discussions concerning differences between the Cf and CP release have devolved into long winded disagreements
Instead of using the terms  Cf or CP, I would prefer to use the term connected upper arms to the torso from just  before to just after impact.Those golfers with connected  upper arms/torso will have their shoulders more open at impact,while  those without  as much will have their shoulders more square at impact.The more square the shoulders the more likely the club will release"down the line"The butt of the club will tend to disappear considerably before the clubhead among those golfers with this upper arm connection.Those with little upper arm connection will tend to evert the butt of the club  in their follow through ,some to the extent that the the butt of the club is almost facing away from the target .One must also be careful in choosing the club in determining this connection .Many golfers ,even those who evert the club with a driver have much more of a connected upper arm/torso position with the wedge.Relatively few golfers are able to  maintain this upper arm /torso connection with a driver.The reason for this is simple.Setup.With a  driver,the ball  is usually played farther up in the stance,with less bend to the ball and more overall body tilt.This setup makes a it much more likely that a player makes  a shallow approach going down and hits more UP and OUT
There have been  terrific golfers with both types of upper arms/torso connection and even some with   hybrid as Kellygreen mentions.But by definition those who do not have this upper arm /torso   connection are making their swing more complicated(more moving parts)and are creating more dependency on timing with the small muscles of the hands,wrists,forearms.

Good post russc.

Just something came to my mind about that sentence:

In reality... and I got two really opposite style players here, one 14deg open and one 10deg closed from shoulders at impact (confirming what you said) but look at the shaft angle from top down

Posted Image

You see they are pointing about to the same direction, but their hand path is totally different and by that we got totally different view in our mind when we see it at exactly same moment from more traditional angle

Posted Image

Here are their hand paths. Higher the line, more distance to the target line there is. And I think I don't have to tell what color is which player ;)

Posted Image

#20 dana dahlquist

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:25 AM

To answer this without going into too much detail. There is no way rory is even close to being CP. the whole CF and CP talk has run it's course IMOP. Ill make a video explaining why tonight. May be late. But if a player swings more than 4 degrees to the right which rory does how can a player be a CP pattern? It's not "if your using the terminology correctly. Cp is generally a down a Across pattern with negative
If rory played like that he would never hit it over 300 yards


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#21 crapula

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:34 AM

Someone should have reminded Rory to hit off the heel on the 10th tee at the 2011 Masters.

How does that question turn into a CP vs CF debate? You people are crazy. It doesn't matter if you swing with one hand picking your nose, a foot up a donkeys butt, or whether or not you employ outward forces or inward forces, you can still hit the ball in the center, heel, or toe of the club.
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#22 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:35 AM

View Postdana dahlquist, on 21 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

To answer this without going into too much detail. There is no way rory is even close to being CP. the whole CF and CP talk has run it's course IMOP. Ill make a video explaining why tonight. May be late. But if a player swings more than 4 degrees to the right which rory does how can a player be a CP pattern? It's not "if your using the terminology correctly. Cp is generally a down a Across pattern with negative
If rory played like that he would never hit it over 300 yards

Dana, we have to remember that hand path and club head path are not at all same. By that it's totally possible to swing hands in like in CP and club head is still going out. Just what happens to the guy in my previous post. About 2dg in to out with club head and about 20 degrees out to in with hands. That's why they can hit draw even when releasing low&left

#23 kellygreen

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:37 AM

View Postdana dahlquist, on 21 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

To answer this without going into too much detail. There is no way rory is even close to being CP. the whole CF and CP talk has run it's course IMOP. Ill make a video explaining why tonight. May be late. But if a player swings more than 4 degrees to the right which rory does how can a player be a CP pattern? It's not "if your using the terminology correctly. Cp is generally a down a Across pattern with negative
If rory played like that he would never hit it over 300 yards



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#24 tylerdurden

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:52 AM

View Postdana dahlquist, on 21 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

To answer this without going into too much detail. There is no way rory is even close to being CP. the whole CF and CP talk has run it's course IMOP. Ill make a video explaining why tonight. May be late. But if a player swings more than 4 degrees to the right which rory does how can a player be a CP pattern? It's not "if your using the terminology correctly. Cp is generally a down a Across pattern with negative
If rory played like that he would never hit it over 300 yards

Looking forward to the video. Your youtube channel is awesome. I wish you did more stuff like this.

#25 MelloYello

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:55 AM

https://www.youtube....h?v=3vk46n3p5SQ


In this clinic Tiger talks about hitting on th heal.

It's a rather common practice that many, many guys are aware of.

If Rory does it on occasion I'm not surprised.

It's not an every-shot thing though.


#26 tylerdurden

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

View Postdana dahlquist, on 21 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

To answer this without going into too much detail. There is no way rory is even close to being CP. the whole CF and CP talk has run it's course IMOP. Ill make a video explaining why tonight. May be late. But if a player swings more than 4 degrees to the right which rory does how can a player be a CP pattern? It's not "if your using the terminology correctly. Cp is generally a down a Across pattern with negative
If rory played like that he would never hit it over 300 yards

Dana, we have to remember that hand path and club head path are not at all same. By that it's totally possible to swing hands in like in CP and club head is still going out. Just what happens to the guy in my previous post. About 2dg in to out with club head and about 20 degrees out to in with hands. That's why they can hit draw even when releasing low&left

Agreed. Only possible if the club is super shallow in delivery/p6 though (as you know). In other words can come in steep and have club path going out/DTL and hands going left through impact. Some people would say shallow is stuck or under plane (I hate that term). If arms are in front enough at delivery I think it's hard to be too shallow.

#27 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

View Posttylerdurden, on 21 November 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

View Postdana dahlquist, on 21 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

To answer this without going into too much detail. There is no way rory is even close to being CP. the whole CF and CP talk has run it's course IMOP. Ill make a video explaining why tonight. May be late. But if a player swings more than 4 degrees to the right which rory does how can a player be a CP pattern? It's not "if your using the terminology correctly. Cp is generally a down a Across pattern with negative
If rory played like that he would never hit it over 300 yards

Dana, we have to remember that hand path and club head path are not at all same. By that it's totally possible to swing hands in like in CP and club head is still going out. Just what happens to the guy in my previous post. About 2dg in to out with club head and about 20 degrees out to in with hands. That's why they can hit draw even when releasing low&left

Agreed. Only possible if the club is super shallow in delivery/p6 though (as you know). In other words can come in steep and have club path going out/DTL and hands going left through impact. Some people would say shallow is stuck or under plane (I hate that term). If arms are in front enough at delivery I think it's hard to be too shallow.

I have never seen too shallow swing. I have seen lot of shallow swings which are destroyed at impact by roll over hooks, but not one where the shallowness produces that hook. Shallow + flip/roll over = dead.

#28 russc

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

View PostTeeAce, on 21 November 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

View Postrussc, on 21 November 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Previously discussions concerning differences between the Cf and CP release have devolved into long winded disagreements
Instead of using the terms  Cf or CP, I would prefer to use the term connected upper arms to the torso from just  before to just after impact.Those golfers with connected  upper arms/torso will have their shoulders more open at impact,while  those without  as much will have their shoulders more square at impact.The more square the shoulders the more likely the club will release"down the line"The butt of the club will tend to disappear considerably before the clubhead among those golfers with this upper arm connection.Those with little upper arm connection will tend to evert the butt of the club  in their follow through ,some to the extent that the the butt of the club is almost facing away from the target .One must also be careful in choosing the club in determining this connection .Many golfers ,even those who evert the club with a driver have much more of a connected upper arm/torso position with the wedge.Relatively few golfers are able to  maintain this upper arm /torso connection with a driver.The reason for this is simple.Setup.With a  driver,the ball  is usually played farther up in the stance,with less bend to the ball and more overall body tilt.This setup makes a it much more likely that a player makes  a shallow approach going down and hits more UP and OUT
There have been  terrific golfers with both types of upper arms/torso connection and even some with   hybrid as Kellygreen mentions.But by definition those who do not have this upper arm /torso   connection are making their swing more complicated(more moving parts)and are creating more dependency on timing with the small muscles of the hands,wrists,forearms.

Good post russc.

Just something came to my mind about that sentence:

In reality... and I got two really opposite style players here, one 14deg open and one 10deg closed from shoulders at impact (confirming what you said) but look at the shaft angle from top down

Posted Image

You see they are pointing about to the same direction, but their hand path is totally different and by that we got totally different view in our mind when we see it at exactly same moment from more traditional angle

Posted Image

Here are their hand paths. Higher the line, more distance to the target line there is. And I think I don't have to tell what color is which player ;)

Posted Image
Teeace  
Quite dramatic differences  between your two students I have never seen the top view at that point in the swing.Let me point out something else that seems interesting to me,the position of their right foot .The golfer in the blue has his weight almost on his toe,while the golfer  to the left looks much more in balance

#29 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

For those that don't know CF vs CP
http://www.golfwrx.c...plain-cf-vs-cp/
:)

#30 TeeAce

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:54 PM

View Postrussc, on 21 November 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:


Teeace  
Quite dramatic differences  between your two students I have never seen the top view at that point in the swing.Let me point out something else that seems interesting to me,the position of their right foot .The golfer in the blue has his weight almost on his toe,while the golfer  to the left looks much more in balance

Not my students, just players who visited here for the analyze.

And you are right about the balance also. That's one of the reasons they got more than 1.000.000 difference in earnings per year ;D
With that hand path what that scratch level lady got, it's about impossible to stay in balance. But as slicefixers student you know it already

And no names please, not even guesses.


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