17 replies to this topic

[station2station]

Done a fair amount of iron reshafting in my day.  PING i20 and Anser irons have a little plug or stage in the bottom of the hosel that props the shaft up about 1/8-1/4". The material is left behind after you pull the shaft, but because of it's plastic nature ends up getting trashed when you scrub out the epoxy from inside before re-shafting.

It's important to replace this little plug or your new shafts will insert too far down into the hosel and play overly stiff.  Can anyone offer any insight on where to obtain replacement plugs or whatever they are using.  

Thank you

[Nessism]

Wow, interesting info.  I had no idea they had such things.

I struggled to get my G20's creak free after reshafting with KBS Tour shafts.  The Ping hosel is really loose, except for the very tip which is quite tight.  Had to slam the head down on the shaft before it would go on tightly enough to keep the epoxy from running down and creating voids.  Ping uses a really thick epoxy on their clubs, like 3M DP460LS, so it clings to the shaft and hosel wall.  Just a guess here, but wonder if these plastic plug are designed to isolate the shaft from the head so they don't creak?

Edited by Nessism, 19 November 2012 - 12:21 AM.

[station2station]

Nessism, on 19 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Wow, interesting info.  I had no idea they had such things.

I struggled to get my G20's creak free after reshafting with KBS Tour shafts.  The Ping hosel is really loose, except for the very tip which is quite tight.  Had to slam the head down on the shaft before it would go on tightly enough to keep the epoxy from running down and creating voids.  Ping uses a really thick epoxy on their clubs, like 3M DP460LS, so it clings to the shaft and hosel wall.  Just a guess here, but wonder if these plastic plug are designed to isolate the shaft from the head so they don't creak?

The ferrule on PING irons has a lip/collar that goes down into the hosel about 5/16" which removes the "slop" you felt. I've never noticed the creaking when using the proper collared ferrules.  These collared ferrules act as a centering shim which makes sure your shaft is in straight. (that's what she said)

(edit - never mind I see you said G20.  No ferrule on those - never done a G series re-shaft. )

Edited by station2station, 19 November 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[station2station]

If I can't find a plug for the bottom of the hosel I'm going to run to a home depot and buy a vinyl/plastic spacer that measures properly and is 1/8" and drop it down into there…something like the ones pictured below only smaller and shallower:

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Edited by station2station, 19 November 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[j-daniel]

To stop the creaking on g20 or other ping collarless irons use dp810 epoxy with a small amount of shafting glass after both hostel and up have been coated in glue. Works a charm

[BrianL99]

station2station, on 18 November 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Done a fair amount of iron reshafting in my day.  PING i20 and Anser irons have a little plug or stage in the bottom of the hosel that props the shaft up about 1/8-1/4". The material is left behind after you pull the shaft, but because of it's plastic nature ends up getting trashed when you scrub out the epoxy from inside before re-shafting.

It's important to replace this little plug or your new shafts will insert too far down into the hosel and play overly stiff.  Can anyone offer any insight on where to obtain replacement plugs or whatever they are using.  

Thank you

You may have way more experience than me, but I play I20's & Anser Irons I've re-shafted in the last 2 months.   I actually called PING about this exact subject & posted on this board, to see if I could figure out what was up with the "plug".

My first set of Ansers, I left the "plug" in there ...

Then I called PING before doing the next 2 sets.

I'm convinced it's nothing more than a blob of extra epoxy at the bottom of the hosel and the engineer that I talked with at PING, confirmed there is no "plug" in the hosel.   If you check your insertion depth on the next shaft with the shaft you pull out, you'll see that you have to get whatever it is out of the hosel, before installing the new shaft.

Just so you don't make the same mistake as me ...

Of the (4) sets of I20's/Ansers I've re-shafted this summer, all the shafts pulled VERY easily, except 2 of the I20's.   I ended up badly bluing the hosel on one of the I20's before I got the shaft out.   I found that I needed to heat it for about 3 or 4 minutes, then I let it cool over-night & re-heated in the morning ... then it pulled fine.

[station2station]

BrianL99, on 19 November 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

station2station, on 18 November 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Done a fair amount of iron reshafting in my day.  PING i20 and Anser irons have a little plug or stage in the bottom of the hosel that props the shaft up about 1/8-1/4". The material is left behind after you pull the shaft, but because of it's plastic nature ends up getting trashed when you scrub out the epoxy from inside before re-shafting.

It's important to replace this little plug or your new shafts will insert too far down into the hosel and play overly stiff.  Can anyone offer any insight on where to obtain replacement plugs or whatever they are using.  

Thank you

You may have way more experience than me, but I play I20's & Anser Irons I've re-shafted in the last 2 months.   I actually called PING about this exact subject & posted on this board, to see if I could figure out what was up with the "plug".

My first set of Ansers, I left the "plug" in there ...

Then I called PING before doing the next 2 sets.

I'm convinced it's nothing more than a blob of extra epoxy at the bottom of the hosel and the engineer that I talked with at PING, confirmed there is no "plug" in the hosel.   If you check your insertion depth on the next shaft with the shaft you pull out, you'll see that you have to get whatever it is out of the hosel, before installing the new shaft.

Just so you don't make the same mistake as me ...

Of the (4) sets of I20's/Ansers I've re-shafted this summer, all the shafts pulled VERY easily, except 2 of the I20's.   I ended up badly bluing the hosel on one of the I20's before I got the shaft out.   I found that I needed to heat it for about 3 or 4 minutes, then I let it cool over-night & re-heated in the morning ... then it pulled fine.

This seems to be the consensus. Thank you for your reply!  I did a search on here and couldn't find your post (which I kind of remember seeing)

Let me ask you this:
When I removed the original (factory installed) shaft the ferrule stayed in place and largely intact (it didn't melt).  So using the ferrule as a marker I know how far the shaft went down into the bore.

If I take a golf tee and stick it down into the cleaned out hosel, the difference is about 1/8" deeper than the shaft went in - basically the tee goes deeper than the shaft did.  I compared back and forth.  I know that the final area at the bottom of the hosel is very snug - should I expect there to be a natural 1/8th space down there where the steel shaft won't go?  I hope so because I don't want the new shaft going deeper than the original shaft.  That would be a BBGM stiffness problem.  Even a little 1/8" makes a noticeable difference in my experience.

Thanks for your reply!  Also - the 1/2" collared ferrules for the i20 and Anser are identical, right? Wish I could find them locally in Denver.  I found a source online.

Edited by station2station, 19 November 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Nessism]

On the Ping's I've worked on, the iron hosel has what looks like a step detail where the bore necks down at the very bottom.  In order to get the shaft full seated and locked into this detail, you need to press or slam the head down onto the shaft quite firmly.  On a couple of clubs I've messed with, the shaft didn't seem to go all the way to the bottom of the bore regardless of how hard I pressed.  A check of the final club length confirmed that the shaft was properly seated though, so I just chalked this anomaly to a quirk in the way those clubs hosels were bored.  Maybe what you are experiencing with these i20's are a similar situation?

[BrianL99]

Nessism, on 19 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

On the Ping's I've worked on, the iron hosel has what looks like a step detail where the bore necks down at the very bottom.  In order to get the shaft full seated and locked into this detail, you need to press or slam the head down onto the shaft quite firmly.  On a couple of clubs I've messed with, the shaft didn't seem to go all the way to the bottom of the bore regardless of how hard I pressed.  A check of the final club length confirmed that the shaft was properly seated though, so I just chalked this anomaly to a quirk in the way those clubs hosels were bored.  Maybe what you are experiencing with these i20's are a similar situation?

You're exactly right, in my opinion.   You need to give the shaft a "whack" to get it in there, but if you're off by a 1/16", I don't think it's really going to matter.  

As for the Ferrules, I used standard (non-collared) Ferrules & no problems on the 4 sets I did.

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[MB_Viking]

I can confirm that the new collared ferrules for the i20 irons that are available at GolfWorks also fit beatifully into the Tour (Gorge) wedges.  So well in fact that I didn't even have to turn it down at all.

[NPVWhiz]

station2station, on 18 November 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Done a fair amount of iron reshafting in my day.  PING i20 and Anser irons have a little plug or stage in the bottom of the hosel that props the shaft up about 1/8-1/4". The material is left behind after you pull the shaft, but because of it's plastic nature ends up getting trashed when you scrub out the epoxy from inside before re-shafting.

It's important to replace this little plug or your new shafts will insert too far down into the hosel and play overly stiff.  Can anyone offer any insight on where to obtain replacement plugs or whatever they are using.  

Thank you

I've seen this type of hosel plug on some older TM irons, but I just tonight finished reshafting my i20s (egad, for the second time in as many weeks) and I didn't see a hosel plug first time around.

I've used a few different methods to clean out hosels over the years, and when I want to get down to bare metal with minimal prep, I use a gel-based epoxy solvent/remover.  What I ended up with was perfectly pristine hosels that have a slightly concave bottom.  I suspect that what you found was some shafting  epoxy that had pooled in the very bottom of the hosel during the assembly process.  I used a heat gun to do the pulls, and had no trouble with any of the heads.

They were night and day different from my i5s.  I even have some suspicion that they used the same epoxy TM was using (and may still be using) years ago, because it had a very distinctive smell once it broke down from the heat.  I know that sounds odd, but it broke down very easily, just like my old TM 300 forged irons did.

All the heads came off by hand twisting after about 2 minutes with the heat gun.

They still have a little hosel slop, and a few of them felt like they wanted to compression set at the bottom when I gave them a little tamping down on reassembly, but others did not.  The hosel insertion depths were all ok, and the heads were very tight in weight tolerance.   Based on how I pulled them, I would have thought that one or two hosel plugs, if they were there, would have survived the clean-up.  There's always the chance that the epoxy solvent I used might have dissolved the plug itself, but based on what came out, it just looked like epoxy softened up by the epoxy remover.

Golfworks collared short ferrules would have worked great for the hosel, but I ended up using beads for the epoxy up top, and that worked fine to firm up the fit.  I don't like to use beads if I can avoid them, but I used very little.  The Golfworks Tour Set Plus Max Strength starts to set up to a thickness that works great for hosels with a little play.

Edited by NPVWhiz, 20 November 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[NPVWhiz]

station2station, on 19 November 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 19 November 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

station2station, on 18 November 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Done a fair amount of iron reshafting in my day.  PING i20 and Anser irons have a little plug or stage in the bottom of the hosel that props the shaft up about 1/8-1/4". The material is left behind after you pull the shaft, but because of it's plastic nature ends up getting trashed when you scrub out the epoxy from inside before re-shafting.

It's important to replace this little plug or your new shafts will insert too far down into the hosel and play overly stiff.  Can anyone offer any insight on where to obtain replacement plugs or whatever they are using.  

Thank you

You may have way more experience than me, but I play I20's & Anser Irons I've re-shafted in the last 2 months.   I actually called PING about this exact subject & posted on this board, to see if I could figure out what was up with the "plug".

My first set of Ansers, I left the "plug" in there ...

Then I called PING before doing the next 2 sets.

I'm convinced it's nothing more than a blob of extra epoxy at the bottom of the hosel and the engineer that I talked with at PING, confirmed there is no "plug" in the hosel.   If you check your insertion depth on the next shaft with the shaft you pull out, you'll see that you have to get whatever it is out of the hosel, before installing the new shaft.

Just so you don't make the same mistake as me ...

Of the (4) sets of I20's/Ansers I've re-shafted this summer, all the shafts pulled VERY easily, except 2 of the I20's.   I ended up badly bluing the hosel on one of the I20's before I got the shaft out.   I found that I needed to heat it for about 3 or 4 minutes, then I let it cool over-night & re-heated in the morning ... then it pulled fine.

This seems to be the consensus. Thank you for your reply!  I did a search on here and couldn't find your post (which I kind of remember seeing)

Let me ask you this:
When I removed the original (factory installed) shaft the ferrule stayed in place and largely intact (it didn't melt).  So using the ferrule as a marker I know how far the shaft went down into the bore.

If I take a golf tee and stick it down into the cleaned out hosel, the difference is about 1/8" deeper than the shaft went in - basically the tee goes deeper than the shaft did.  I compared back and forth.  I know that the final area at the bottom of the hosel is very snug - should I expect there to be a natural 1/8th space down there where the steel shaft won't go?  I hope so because I don't want the new shaft going deeper than the original shaft.  That would be a BBGM stiffness problem.  Even a little 1/8" makes a noticeable difference in my experience.

Thanks for your reply!  Also - the 1/2" collared ferrules for the i20 and Anser are identical, right? Wish I could find them locally in Denver.  I found a source online.

In looking at them, I think the bottom of the i20 hosel is slightly concave, which could account for part of the depth difference you saw from where the shaft seats and where the center bottom of the hosel was.  This just means the reamer left a small bit of concavity at the bottom, which is where a little epoxy would pool when they assembled the iron.

[station2station]

So in conclusion, there is no plug or spacer.  It was a glob of epoxy as alluded to by other guys on here - thanks for that.

The i20 and Anser hosels do indeed taper and the shaft can only go so far.  A firm tap fully seats the new shaft but the space will still be there - about 1/8" - (tiny) - you cannot get your shaft to go into that little space, so no fear. But as a reult of the space existing, the wet epoxy collects there - this is what i thought was a plug.

Thanks guys.  It's pretty much idiot proof - as mentioned before just firmly tap the shaft butt on the concrete floor of your workshop until the shaft is fully seated.  Collard ferrules are not required but do help in the centering of the shaft until the drying completes.  A club builder's trick is to use a thin bead of masking tape wrapped 3-4x around the area where a collared ferrule would be to act as a collar and keep the shaft centered until the epoxy dries- you can trim it with an razor blade to make it "collar width".  Doesn't hurt anything because once the epoxy is dry the bracing is complete with a properly centered shaft.

Edited by station2station, 19 November 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[Awalkspoiled]

station2station, on 19 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

So in conclusion, there is no plug or spacer.  It was a glob of epoxy as alluded to by other guys on here - thanks for that.

The i20 and Anser hosels do indeed taper and the shaft can only go so far.  A firm tap fully seats the new shaft but the space will still be there - about 1/8" - (tiny) - you cannot get your shaft to go into that little space, so no fear. But as a reult of the space existing, the wet epoxy collects there - this is what i thought was a plug.

Thanks guys.  It's pretty much idiot proof - as mentioned before just firmly tap the shaft butt on the concrete floor of your workshop until the shaft is fully seated.  Collard ferrules are not required but do help in the centering of the shaft until the drying completes.  A club builder's trick is to use a thin bead of masking tape wrapped 3-4x around the area where a collared ferrule would be to act as a collar and keep the shaft centered until the epoxy dries- you can trim it with an razor blade to make it "collar width".  Doesn't hurt anything because once the epoxy is dry the bracing is complete with a properly centered shaft.

I'm not sure I'd want to use a non-collared ferrule on the i-20. The issue for me isn't centering the shaft, it's the very short adhesion area. The .400 bore on these extends more than 1/4", which leaves less than a full inch of insertion avaiable for epoxy. It's even worse of course if you use tipweights whch eat up as much as 3/16". The i-20 ferrule has enough surface area on the collar to add materially to the security of the joint - in effect it's like a very short bushing-ferrule. My hope is that this provides enough margin to allow the use of tipweights, since the heads are underweight for graphite assembly. I'm waiting on some nice white i-20 ferrules (availabe on eBay from golfstiffy - I hope they're legit) and when they get here a Florida WRXer gets his i20s back, with some sweet Program 130s in them...

[station2station]

the (useable, excluding the area that the shaft won't go down into) hosel depth of the Anser iron is exactly 1 1/16".  Below is a photo of a factory installed shaft removed from an Anser head - the ferrule stayed in place but was obviously spent after the heat treatment.  New ones required for reshaft.  

It's the same on the i20 as well.  You must be referring to the driver which has a super shallow depth.

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[NPVWhiz]

I think that he meant that the portion of the hosel at the top that's larger, to accept the collared part of the ferrule, extends a little farther down than the depth of the Golfworks 1/2" collared ferrule, so that leaves a shorter portion of the hosel with the bore closer to the standard .355 taper bore, and so less area for a traditional thin bond.  I've read over the years that a thicker bond, with standard golf epoxy formulations, is not a good thing, because golf epoxies have great shear strength, but do not have good compression/peeling resistance properties.  So a thick bond at the top of the hosel, over time, allows for separation of the shaft from the bond, or the bond from the hosel (or both) in some cases.  A proper shim can help, as can a collared ferrule, as both create two thinner bonds in the area.

Over time I've become less worried about this, having had very few irons fail over the last five years...but I'm a real stickler for prep, and I really like the Golfworks Max Strength Tour Set Plus.  It mixes up a little thicker than 24 hour epoxies (which you can thicken a bit by heating them and allowing them to begin to polymerize a bit) and with beads and just the right amount of time, they shaft up very well.

[station2station]

NPVWhiz, on 20 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I think that he meant that the portion of the hosel at the top that's larger, to accept the collared part of the ferrule, extends a little farther down than the depth of the Golfworks 1/2" collared ferrule, so that leaves a shorter portion of the hosel with the bore closer to the standard .355 taper bore, and so less area for a traditional thin bond.  I've read over the years that a thicker bond, with standard golf epoxy formulations, is not a good thing, because golf epoxies have great shear strength, but do not have good compression/peeling resistance properties.  So a thick bond at the top of the hosel, over time, allows for separation of the shaft from the bond, or the bond from the hosel (or both) in some cases.  A proper shim can help, as can a collared ferrule, as both create two thinner bonds in the area.

Over time I've become less worried about this, having had very few irons fail over the last five years...but I'm a real stickler for prep, and I really like the Golfworks Max Strength Tour Set Plus.  It mixes up a little thicker than 24 hour epoxies (which you can thicken a bit by heating them and allowing them to begin to polymerize a bit) and with beads and just the right amount of time, they shaft up very well.

Understood.  Makes me love reshafting Mizunos and Titleists so much better.  Such a joy compared to PING.  No slop, a little glass and a pure fit.  I get why PING does it but it's unnecessary.

[NPVWhiz]

station2station, on 20 November 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

NPVWhiz, on 20 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I think that he meant that the portion of the hosel at the top that's larger, to accept the collared part of the ferrule, extends a little farther down than the depth of the Golfworks 1/2" collared ferrule, so that leaves a shorter portion of the hosel with the bore closer to the standard .355 taper bore, and so less area for a traditional thin bond.  I've read over the years that a thicker bond, with standard golf epoxy formulations, is not a good thing, because golf epoxies have great shear strength, but do not have good compression/peeling resistance properties.  So a thick bond at the top of the hosel, over time, allows for separation of the shaft from the bond, or the bond from the hosel (or both) in some cases.  A proper shim can help, as can a collared ferrule, as both create two thinner bonds in the area.

Over time I've become less worried about this, having had very few irons fail over the last five years...but I'm a real stickler for prep, and I really like the Golfworks Max Strength Tour Set Plus.  It mixes up a little thicker than 24 hour epoxies (which you can thicken a bit by heating them and allowing them to begin to polymerize a bit) and with beads and just the right amount of time, they shaft up very well.

Understood.  Makes me love reshafting Mizunos and Titleists so much better.  Such a joy compared to PING.  No slop, a little glass and a pure fit.  I get why PING does it but it's unnecessary.

I agree completely.  Reshafting my i5s was more of a pain than any other set I've done as a hobbyist.  My MS-203s are a breeze comparatively..as were the MP-29s, the TP-19s, the Super-11s, the MP Grads....I could go on!