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Hand Warmers can be a no-no.


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#1 eagles1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:26 AM

Played golf in the northeast yesterday.  Temps mid 40's.  When weather gets this cold I keep hand warmers in my pockets.  Friend told me today that hand warmers are ok but don't put golf balls in pockets if you plan on putting them in play as that would be illegal.  Never thought of that before.  Picky yes - true yes.  Thoughts?


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#2 kevcarter

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:37 AM

14-3/13
Hand Warmer

Q. A player uses a device to warm his hands during a round. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A. No. Although a hand warmer is an artificial device, its use to warm the hands is traditionally accepted, and Exception 2 to Rule 14-3 applies.

===========================================

14-3/13.5
Golf Ball Artificially Warmed

Q. Is the use of a golf ball that was purposely warmed during a stipulated round with a golf ball warmer, hand warmer or any such device a breach of Rule 14-3?

A. Yes. Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3. However, it would not be a breach of Rule 14-3 to use a ball that was artificially warmed prior to the stipulated round.
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#3 SketchyBFC

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM

What if it was warmed and stored in an insulated container to keep it warm?

Edited by SketchyBFC, 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM.


#4 Vindog

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

What if it was warmed and stored in an insulated container to keep it warm?
Could, and maybe should, be considered an artificial device/unusual equipment.

I don't know though.
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#5 kevcarter

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:22 AM

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

What if it was warmed and stored in an insulated container to keep it warm?

Lets peek at the quoted decision:

Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3

An insulated container would be considered an artificial devise if used for this purpose.

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#6 SketchyBFC

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:39 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

What if it was warmed and stored in an insulated container to keep it warm?

Lets peek at the quoted decision:

Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3

An insulated container would be considered an artificial devise if used for this purpose.

Interesting interpretation as it wouldn't be being warmed during the round, just being protected from going cold...

So if we make this a bit more low tech and said that we padded the ball pouch on the bag with an unheated towel and the added the heated balls - same ruling?

Edited by SketchyBFC, 17 November 2012 - 09:49 AM.


#7 Vindog

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:53 AM

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

What if it was warmed and stored in an insulated container to keep it warm?

Lets peek at the quoted decision:

Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3

An insulated container would be considered an artificial devise if used for this purpose.

Interesting interpretation as it wouldn't be being warmed during the round, just being protected from going cold...

So if we make this a bit more low tech and said that we padded the ball pouch on the bag with an unheated towel and the added the heated balls - same ruling?

Could be ruled "unusual use of equipment"  You're not using the towel as a towel anymore, but as a blanket.

I think if one was really interested in keeping his balls warm he might just keep them in his pants pocket, without a handwarmer?
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#8 SketchyBFC

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:18 AM

View PostVindog, on 17 November 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Could be ruled "unusual use of equipment"  You're not using the towel as a towel anymore, but as a blanket.
I can see that...and use of a blanket would then come under 14-3.

Quote

I think if one was really interested in keeping his balls warm he might just keep them in his pants pocket, without a handwarmer?
I would do this - but that's more because I usually have 2 spare balls in my pocket ready for the inevitable OB into a farmers field off the tee.

#9 mdgboxx

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

View PostVindog, on 17 November 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

What if it was warmed and stored in an insulated container to keep it warm?

Lets peek at the quoted decision:

Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3

An insulated container would be considered an artificial devise if used for this purpose.

Interesting interpretation as it wouldn't be being warmed during the round, just being protected from going cold...

So if we make this a bit more low tech and said that we padded the ball pouch on the bag with an unheated towel and the added the heated balls - same ruling?

Could be ruled "unusual use of equipment"  You're not using the towel as a towel anymore, but as a blanket.

I think if one was really interested in keeping his balls warm he might just keep them in his pants pocket, without a handwarmer?

That!

In cold weather, I wear insolated pants and keep up to four balls (that I rotate after each hole) in my pocket. I've witnessed others, wearing slacks under a pair of rain pants, that do the same thing as I do.

IMHO, pre heating golf balls and using an insolated container would be using an artificial device. Using a towel, however, could be considered an a/d since it is normally used for cleaning equipment. That said, it believe it would be permissible to use it as a gripping aid (like a handkerchief) in wet weather conditions. Good Thread!

I have read, on this board, that a golf ball brought to room temp will remain playable for up to 4+ hrs @ 40°F.
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#10 kevcarter

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:38 AM

View PostVindog, on 17 November 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostSketchyBFC, on 17 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

What if it was warmed and stored in an insulated container to keep it warm?

Lets peek at the quoted decision:

Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3

An insulated container would be considered an artificial devise if used for this purpose.

Interesting interpretation as it wouldn't be being warmed during the round, just being protected from going cold...

So if we make this a bit more low tech and said that we padded the ball pouch on the bag with an unheated towel and the added the heated balls - same ruling?

Could be ruled "unusual use of equipment"  You're not using the towel as a towel anymore, but as a blanket.

I think if one was really interested in keeping his balls warm he might just keep them in his pants pocket, without a handwarmer?

I agree, with the towel it comes down to your intent. Putting the balls in a pants pocket is fine, not an unusual use of equipment...

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#11 Swisstrader98

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 12:28 PM

Isn't GHIN shutdown as are most tournaments this time of year for cold weather golfers? If yes, why does this matter??

#12 saltcity

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:12 PM

Wow, never considered hand warmers as anything but a 'survival' measure for a cold round.

I have a pair of Wilson Staff cart mittens. I don't use them for golf but, they are great for shoveling snow/snow thrower days in the Northeast.

#13 Dire Wolf

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:33 PM

Ben Hogan intentionally warmed balls with wick-powered hand warmers at the British Open.  I have always assumed that this rule was put in place after that.

#14 dalehead

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:39 PM

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

14-3/13
Hand Warmer

Q. A player uses a device to warm his hands during a round. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A. No. Although a hand warmer is an artificial device, its use to warm the hands is traditionally accepted, and Exception 2 to Rule 14-3 applies.

===========================================

14-3/13.5
Golf Ball Artificially Warmed

Q. Is the use of a golf ball that was purposely warmed during a stipulated round with a golf ball warmer, hand warmer or any such device a breach of Rule 14-3?

A. Yes. Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3. However, it would not be a breach of Rule 14-3 to use a ball that was artificially warmed prior to the stipulated round.

So if you accidentally put the ball in the same pocket as the hand warmer have you avoided purposely warming the ball?

#15 kevcarter

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:43 PM

View Postdalehead, on 17 November 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

14-3/13
Hand Warmer

Q. A player uses a device to warm his hands during a round. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A. No. Although a hand warmer is an artificial device, its use to warm the hands is traditionally accepted, and Exception 2 to Rule 14-3 applies.

===========================================

14-3/13.5
Golf Ball Artificially Warmed

Q. Is the use of a golf ball that was purposely warmed during a stipulated round with a golf ball warmer, hand warmer or any such device a breach of Rule 14-3?

A. Yes. Use of a ball that has been purposely warmed during a stipulated round with an artificial device constitutes a breach of Rule 14-3. However, it would not be a breach of Rule 14-3 to use a ball that was artificially warmed prior to the stipulated round.

So if you accidentally put the ball in the same pocket as the hand warmer have you avoided purposely warming the ball?

That would be my interpretation. Hopefully the player can keep a straight face while trying to convince me... :-)

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#16 prestiege

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:28 PM

what about using the insulated cooler pockets built into a lot of cart bags, fill the pocket with balls and hand warmers prior to round and remove the hand warmers before teeing off?

#17 Stuart G.

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:52 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

An insulated container would be considered an artificial devise if used for this purpose.

Sorry for joining late - but how did you come to this conclusion?  Was there another decision that wasn't posted?

An insulated container doesn't generate heat and I wouldn't consider it a device that 'artificially heats' the balls.

Edited by Stuart G., 18 November 2012 - 05:56 AM.


#18 kevcarter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:24 AM

View PostStuart G., on 18 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 17 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

An insulated container would be considered an artificial devise if used for this purpose.

Sorry for joining late - but how did you come to this conclusion?  Was there another decision that wasn't posted?

An insulated container doesn't generate heat and I wouldn't consider it a device that 'artificially heats' the balls.

Certainly a gray area, and I could be wrong. It sounds to me as though the player is using an artificial device purposely to keep his balls warm, while not warming, the same principle in my mind...

Sounds as though I may be in the minority in my thinking?

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#19 kevcarter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:25 AM

View Postprestiege, on 17 November 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

what about using the insulated cooler pockets built into a lot of cart bags, fill the pocket with balls and hand warmers prior to round and remove the hand warmers before teeing off?

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#20 Fourmyle of Ceres

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:54 AM

Tom Watson wrote an instructional "hint" in Golf Digest years ago saying that in cold weather his caddie Bruce always kept golf balls in his pocket with a handwarmer. Watson suggested that everyone should do the same. So unless there's been a Decision in the last few years it is most certainly allowed under the Rules as I do not imagine Tom Watson routinely violating either the spirit or the letter of the Rules in tournaments.


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#21 kevcarter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:01 AM

View PostFourmyle of Ceres, on 18 November 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Tom Watson wrote an instructional "hint" in Golf Digest years ago saying that in cold weather his caddie Bruce always kept golf balls in his pocket with a handwarmer. Watson suggested that everyone should do the same. So unless there's been a Decision in the last few years it is most certainly allowed under the Rules as I do not imagine Tom Watson routinely violating either the spirit or the letter of the Rules in tournaments.

I guess we need to find when 14-3/13.5 was adopted...

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#22 J13

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:45 AM

The exception is put in for players putting out then as you walk to the next tee you naturally put your ball in your pocket. Its a natural reaction and players aren't going to remember they have hand warmers.
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#23 kevcarter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:00 AM

View PostJ13, on 18 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

The exception is put in for players putting out then as you walk to the next tee you naturally put your ball in your pocket. Its a natural reaction and players aren't going to remember they have hand warmers.

The quoted decision clearly states "purposely warmed." You are correct, different animal. Which post are you replying to?
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#24 J13

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:28 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 18 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

View PostJ13, on 18 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

The exception is put in for players putting out then as you walk to the next tee you naturally put your ball in your pocket. Its a natural reaction and players aren't going to remember they have hand warmers.

The quoted decision clearly states "purposely warmed." You are correct, different animal. Which post are you replying to?

I was just tossing out an example of why they added in the word "purposely warmed"  In most cases guys who use warmers would be getting tagged penalty strokes every time they tossed the ball in their pocket which would be crazy. I use warmers during the winter and I would shoot 18 strokes higher every round if I got a penalty for this lol

Edited by J13, 18 November 2012 - 08:28 AM.

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#25 Rockminer

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:31 AM

Could I use a hand warmer, while I play the hole, then keep the ball in my hand, without the warmer, between holes or any time the ball is not in play?


#26 kevcarter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:32 AM

View PostJ13, on 18 November 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 18 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

View PostJ13, on 18 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

The exception is put in for players putting out then as you walk to the next tee you naturally put your ball in your pocket. Its a natural reaction and players aren't going to remember they have hand warmers.

The quoted decision clearly states "purposely warmed." You are correct, different animal. Which post are you replying to?

I was just tossing out an example of why they added in the word "purposely warmed"  In most cases guys who use warmers would be getting tagged penalty strokes every time they tossed the ball in their pocket which would be crazy. I use warmers during the winter and I would shoot 18 strokes higher every round if I got a penalty for this lol

Gotcha. Agree. I was hoping you weren't replying to the posts above you where Mr  Watson was suggesting players do this. Obviously purposeful.

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#27 kevcarter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:35 AM

View PostRockminer, on 18 November 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Could I use a hand warmer, while I play the hole, then keep the ball in my hand, without the warmer, between holes or any time the ball is not in play?

Is your intent to keep your hands warm, or keep the ball warm? Some good points, really hard to legislate against someone who isn't truthful about their intent. A big can of worms...
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#28 Rockminer

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 18 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:


Is your intent to keep your hands warm, or keep the ball warm? Some good points, really hard to legislate against someone who isn't truthful about their intent. A big can of worms...

I think the only way this rule could be applied is to limit warming a ball to any outside warmer, other than ones body. ( I didn't read the rule so maybe it says something to that effect )

In my example above, my intent would be to keep the ball warm, unless that was the way I carried the ball year round.

If I put the ball in my pocket, next to my skin, I would just be putting it in my pocket, but i would be achieving the same result as if I held it. same results, different intent.

#29 kevcarter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:55 AM

View PostRockminer, on 18 November 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 18 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:


Is your intent to keep your hands warm, or keep the ball warm? Some good points, really hard to legislate against someone who isn't truthful about their intent. A big can of worms...

I think the only way this rule could be applied is to limit warming a ball to any outside warmer, other than ones body. ( I didn't read the rule so maybe it says something to that effect )

In my example above, my intent would be to keep the ball warm, unless that was the way I carried the ball year round.

If I put the ball in my pocket, next to my skin, I would just be putting it in my pocket, but i would be achieving the same result as if I held it. same results, different intent.

Putting a ball in your pocket next to your skin isn't using any artificial equipment, intent doesn't matter. Add a hand warmer to the mix...
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#30 Rockminer

Rockminer

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 18 November 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:


Putting a ball in your pocket next to your skin isn't using any artificial equipment, intent doesn't matter. Add a hand warmer to the mix...

This is a fun subject, always like your posts. So is keeping a ball warm with body temp legal, no matter how I do it?

1. I can heat the ball to whatever temp desired before the round.
2. Keeping it in my pocket is legal. ( no warmer other than body heat )
3. is keeping it in my hand legal? "
4. Can I blow on it, or rub it in my hands like Mr Miyagi?  ( Karate kid )

I'm interested in knowing about the insulated pocket liner legality.

For the record. I have never heated a ball or tried to. I have held a ball in my hand while it was cold in the attempt to keep it from getting colder. Not sure if that even works.


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