113 replies to this topic

[bscinstnct]

mwkbmw, on 16 November 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

bogey_bakes, on 16 November 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

The solution is simple.  Put a shot clock on every shot, including putts.  Your turn?  You have 24 seconds to hit the ball.  Period.  And enforce it rigorously with the penalty being docked shots.  Just like Snedeker says.  

There is a rule in basketball that you have 10 seconds to shoot a free throw after the referee hands you the ball.  The penalty is that you lose a free throw.  When was the last time you saw a violation?  Never.  My point is that players will adapt.

I also think they should also go back to continuous putting.  There are some problems with the rule, I will admit that.  But it will send a message to players and fans, and it will help change the culture of the game.  It should take no more than 4 hours to play a competitive round of golf.  And it should only take 3.5 hours, at a maximum, for a recreational round.

Baseball has the same problem.  I have the answer, if Bud Selig would listen.  They need to get rid of mound visits, and do not allow on field warm ups when pitchers are changed.  Imagine a coach going out to talk to a player before shooting a free throw--that's the equivalent of a mound visit.  Dumb.  Or if a sub in basketball gets to run around on the court and take some practice shots before they start back up.  Really dumb.  There are bullpens on all major league fields, so players are plenty warmed up.  Make them pitch right away.  That will make managers hesitate a bit more before changing pitchers, which will in turn speed up the game.  Plus, a fairly radical change like this will send a message to both players and fans: Speed it up!  Change the culture.

My point is that there are two sports with time issues that are affecting their popularity.  The leaders in these leagues need to take significant action that sends a message.  If they don't, their audiences and revenues will continue to atrophy.

The mound on the playing field is surely different than the bullpen. I do not think it is unreasonable to allow a pitcher 8 throws to adjust to the different mound. I think the problem in baseball is the same as golf. Slow players play slowly. I mean really, how often does a batter need to step out of the batter's box and readjust the Velcro on his batting gloves? All these guys just want to maximize their time in front of the camera. More exposure means more money from endorsements. Either that or it's purely their huge egos making them think that the world revolves around them.

I think money is at the root of slow play to a degree. Each stroke is worth so much money nowadays that it affects players' confidence.

Wtf? Rush baseball?

Baseball is beautiful. Leisurely, summer time game.

Warm up between innings, "coming down!", catcher fire to 2nd.

Stand around in the outfield, pitch, anticipate where the guy will hit it and Crack!

The chaos of a smallball blurr harnessed with the talent and teamwork to casually snag it backhand and rifle it to 1st.

Tell some stories, spit a lot, smell the leather!

Baseball!

Don't mess with it.

Edited by bscinstnct, 16 November 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[OldSkoolTexan]

imakaveli, on 16 November 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour give out penalty strokes when they can line their pockets with cash?

Improving the game?

Exactly. Strokes will affect the pace of play far more than a few thousand bucks.  These guys are multi-millionaires, besides Im quite sure that fines are tax deductible....

Besides all that, psychologically, the penalty strokes will have a much greater effect.  Especially on a Sun, as mentioned up a few posts. Let alone in a major...

[Dire Wolf]

Why would the PGA Tour WANT to speed up play?  If they really thought it was as big a problem as some of the players do, wouldn't they pay attention to that detail like they pay attention to other, seeminly less-important details?  Why do you  think the fines are so ineffective, and the rules so half-arsed?

I don't think they want play to speed up, to a point.

I doubt they'll want 6+ hour rounds, but the longer they can broadcast a Tiger Woods round (or some other star drawing eyeballs) the more commercials the network can sell.  The longer they're on the air, the more on-site ads they can also sell (and the more exposure the title sponsor gets) because they'll appear on TV more.  And the more time a round takes, the easier it is for the networks to edit and splice together a presentation of shots and highlights (along with other features) throughout the afternoon in order to maximize the effect.

Think about it.  What is the financial incentive for the Tour to speed up?  There doesn't seem to be one!  If viewers aren't running away in droves because of slow play, and advertisers aren't leaving, and the networks are happy, then all it really boils down to is whether or not SOME of the players get their way and play faster (meaning less face time on-air) while others prefer to play slower.

Follow the money.

[cxx]

I don't see how anyone can come down in favor of slow play. It's incredibly inconsiderate to everyone on the golf course, or at least those behind slow players.  It may be an exception, but I was taught at an early age how to play without delay, assessing my next shot while others were playing theirs and being ready when it was my turn.  It's not that difficult.  Probably a little peer pressure within the group would go a long way.  Everyone knows who the slow ones are in their own foursome.  Let them know if they need to pick up the pace.  

Not sure how penalties would work on the tour, but it has to go the individuals causing the delay, not the group.  It's unfortunate that recreational golfers imitate the worst behavior of the tour players.  There is a lot of posing going on.

[RookieBlue7]

My uncle is the slowest golfer ever, and he gets slower when he's playing better or when he's playing worse.  Seriously, our foursome is probably one of the slowest on the course.  He's the reason.  He takes 42 practice swings, figures wind twice, reads putts from 7 or 8 angles.  And then he changes clubs.  It's rediculous.  Last time I played with him, I unstrapped my clubs from the cart and carried them and let him have the cart alone.  And our home course is hilly.  We've said things to him, tried to make him understand, left him a hole behind, everything, and nothing will speed him up. I used to play every weekend, then went to every other weekend because of my work schedule.  Now, every other weekend is still open and I try to find someone else to play with lots of times.  Some people are just slow, and nothing you do will speed them up.  I suspect the Tour guys are about the same way.  Until the guys lining their pockets with endorsements start pulling money, the earnings they have from playing will be a drop in the bucket for the top 50%.

Edited by RookieBlue7, 17 November 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[bunter101]

If it gets any slower Furyk will be getting sponsored by 7 Hour Energy

[cxx]

RookieBlue7, on 17 November 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

My uncle is the slowest golfer ever, and he gets slower when he's playing better or when he's playing worse.  Seriously, our foursome is probably one of the slowest on the course.  He's the reason.  He takes 42 practice swings, figures wind twice, reads putts from 7 or 8 angles.  And then he changes clubs.  It's rediculous.  Last time I played with him, I unstrapped my clubs from the cart and carried them and let him have the cart alone.  And our home course is hilly.  We've said things to him, tried to make him understand, left him a hole behind, everything, and nothing will speed him up. I used to play every weekend, then went to every other weekend because of my work schedule.  Now, every other weekend is still open and I try to find someone else to play with lots of times.  Some people are just slow, and nothing you do will speed them up.  I suspect the Tour guys are about the same way.  Until the guys lining their pockets with endorsements start pulling money, the earnings they have from playing will be a drop in the bucket for the top 50%.

I'd have to make sure that I played before that dude or I'd start playing somewhere else.

[mandudebro]

boriqua, on 16 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'm sorry but he's way off here... These guys all play at different speeds and the game of golf allows that. What does he want the tour to start doing? Have someone carry a 24 second shot clock with each group. This is a game that isn't dictated by time... in basketball teams are given 48 minutes to complete a game in golf you're given 18 holes to complete a game.

Let's not beat around the bush... the guy comes across as nervous and impatient... who is he to say how fast the game is supposed to be played at the highest level? Maybe he should drink some chamomile tea and slow the hell down and then maybe he might not gag more often when he's in contention.

And this is coming from someone who plays pretty fast... 1 practice swing, take a look and pull the trigger... and on the greens I read it once from behind, no practice stroke and pull... but I do it in a calm and gathered manner unlike this add having cry baby.

...but he's cashing checks for $10M and you, well, you're just 'calm and gathered'.  Please...

[MtlJeff]

Dire Wolf, on 17 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour WANT to speed up play?  If they really thought it was as big a problem as some of the players do, wouldn't they pay attention to that detail like they pay attention to other, seeminly less-important details?  Why do you  think the fines are so ineffective, and the rules so half-arsed?

I don't think they want play to speed up, to a point.

I doubt they'll want 6+ hour rounds, but the longer they can broadcast a Tiger Woods round (or some other star drawing eyeballs) the more commercials the network can sell.  The longer they're on the air, the more on-site ads they can also sell (and the more exposure the title sponsor gets) because they'll appear on TV more.  And the more time a round takes, the easier it is for the networks to edit and splice together a presentation of shots and highlights (along with other features) throughout the afternoon in order to maximize the effect.

Think about it.  What is the financial incentive for the Tour to speed up?  There doesn't seem to be one!  If viewers aren't running away in droves because of slow play, and advertisers aren't leaving, and the networks are happy, then all it really boils down to is whether or not SOME of the players get their way and play faster (meaning less face time on-air) while others prefer to play slower.

Follow the money.

I don't doubt that networks want whatever will make them the most money (and i just watched "tomorrow never dies" too oddly enough while were on the subject). But i don't think faster play would hurt them. Usually broadcasts are 3-4 hours on the major networks and the stars are already on the 6th or 7th hole when coverage begins. Faster play might mean they could show a full Tiger Woods round instead of 12 holes.

For majors usually coverage begins about 45 minutes before the leaders tee off, so again then they'd just start right off the bat with the leaders. I don't think it would affect ratings that much plus it would have rounds done before 60 minutes so they don't have the senior viewers mad at the network

I'd be in favor of forcing them to play faster one way or another. I don't think the amount of money they play for is relevant. I guarantee you if you take 10 pros and put them in twosomes for 2 practice rounds. In one they have to play in 4 hours and in the other they can play in as much as 6....i doubt the scores would be different

[bobfoster]

A round of golf should take 4 hours. 2 hous for 9 holes. Really no excuse for anything more.

[mark m]

I'm with you Bob. My brother and I played today. First ones out after a frost delay. Walked a 6900 yard course and finished in 2:50. If it was a tournament and we were reallly bearing down - it would have been 3:30 max.

The tour is typically three-somes or two-somes and they have caddies to replace divots, rank bunkers, and the rest. They also have marshalls/fore-caddies/spectators to help them find their foul balls. As you say, there is no excuse.

[monkeynaut]

Dire Wolf, on 17 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour WANT to speed up play?  

Think about it.  What is the financial incentive for the Tour to speed up?  There doesn't seem to be one!  If viewers aren't running away in droves because of slow play....

Viewers aren't running TO GOLF in droves.  Golf remains a niche sport bc it's long and slow on tv.  People are taking up the game less bc it's too slow.  

Honestly if it weren't for DVR, I'd watch maybe less than half the golf that I do.  I let it record for an hour and a half then start watching, so I can speed by the slow players and see shots.  

I also miss a lot of ads that way, too.  What I do is not uncommon.   Do you think the networks and sponsors really don't have a problem with this growing trend?

[Sean2]

I like slow play on the PGA Tour. It gives me the opportunity to cruise GolfWRX, go through magazines, read a book, without missing a shot.

Edited by Sean2, 17 November 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[PedronNiall]

The LPGA didn't do a very good job of enforcing it properly. The ET did, however, and I'm sure the players who lost because of it have taken the lesson to heart.

The bad thing about it is that players with a normal to fast pace have to adjust to accommodate the slower players, but the slower players overall see no negatives from continuing to play that way.

All of that said, so long as everyone finishes within the allotted time it's all gravy.

[imakaveli]

Still don't understand why people are defending slow game. Slow golfers themselves?

[Dire Wolf]

MtlJeff, on 17 November 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Dire Wolf, on 17 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour WANT to speed up play?  If they really thought it was as big a problem as some of the players do, wouldn't they pay attention to that detail like they pay attention to other, seeminly less-important details?  Why do you  think the fines are so ineffective, and the rules so half-arsed?

I don't think they want play to speed up, to a point.

I doubt they'll want 6+ hour rounds, but the longer they can broadcast a Tiger Woods round (or some other star drawing eyeballs) the more commercials the network can sell.  The longer they're on the air, the more on-site ads they can also sell (and the more exposure the title sponsor gets) because they'll appear on TV more.  And the more time a round takes, the easier it is for the networks to edit and splice together a presentation of shots and highlights (along with other features) throughout the afternoon in order to maximize the effect.

Think about it.  What is the financial incentive for the Tour to speed up?  There doesn't seem to be one!  If viewers aren't running away in droves because of slow play, and advertisers aren't leaving, and the networks are happy, then all it really boils down to is whether or not SOME of the players get their way and play faster (meaning less face time on-air) while others prefer to play slower.

Follow the money.

I don't doubt that networks want whatever will make them the most money (and i just watched "tomorrow never dies" too oddly enough while were on the subject). But i don't think faster play would hurt them. Usually broadcasts are 3-4 hours on the major networks and the stars are already on the 6th or 7th hole when coverage begins. Faster play might mean they could show a full Tiger Woods round instead of 12 holes.

For majors usually coverage begins about 45 minutes before the leaders tee off, so again then they'd just start right off the bat with the leaders. I don't think it would affect ratings that much plus it would have rounds done before 60 minutes so they don't have the senior viewers mad at the network

I'd be in favor of forcing them to play faster one way or another. I don't think the amount of money they play for is relevant. I guarantee you if you take 10 pros and put them in twosomes for 2 practice rounds. In one they have to play in 4 hours and in the other they can play in as much as 6....i doubt the scores would be different

I thought about all of that before posting, but I remembered how many times they will extend coverage when the tournament is important, the outcome is in doubt, or there are star players still finishing a round.

The point is there is no incentive for the tour to speed up from where it is NOW.  Play doesn't have to get slower to extend coverage, nor does it have to get faster and risk shorter broadcasts.

[Dire Wolf]

monkeynaut, on 17 November 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Dire Wolf, on 17 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour WANT to speed up play?  

Think about it.  What is the financial incentive for the Tour to speed up?  There doesn't seem to be one!  If viewers aren't running away in droves because of slow play....

Viewers aren't running TO GOLF in droves.  Golf remains a niche sport bc it's long and slow on tv.  People are taking up the game less bc it's too slow.  

Honestly if it weren't for DVR, I'd watch maybe less than half the golf that I do.  I let it record for an hour and a half then start watching, so I can speed by the slow players and see shots.  

I also miss a lot of ads that way, too.  What I do is not uncommon.   Do you think the networks and sponsors really don't have a problem with this growing trend?

Golf booms go in cycles.  They always have.

I don't think pace of play has anything to do with non-golfers deciding to stay non-golfers.  They have no concept of "slow play" and anyone just starting out is probably not a fast player anyway.  Most beginners I've seen start out on the range or with lessons or with 9 hole rounds or other groups of beginners.  The irritation with slow play is going to be more from established golfers who allocate a set amount of time for their hobby and don't have the speed-reducing limitations of learning everything as they go.

Plus I said VIEWERS running from TV broadcasts, not golfers leaving the game.

And again as I said, the more GOLF BROADCAST time you have (not just ads in-between coverage) the more time you have to put in-game sponsorships on the screen.  Meaning, graphics overlaid during play or stat presentation, and on-site ads like banners, signs, blimps, display cars, tee markers, etc.)  You can't tivo through all of that.

Edited by Dire Wolf, 19 November 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Truman]

Nicklaus is the Godfather of slow play.  But, slow play is not a PGA issue.  The USGA and R&A are responsible for growing and protecting the game.  That's where slow play needs to be dealt with.  Start with the juniors.

[monkeynaut]

Dire Wolf, on 19 November 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

monkeynaut, on 17 November 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Dire Wolf, on 17 November 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour WANT to speed up play?  

Think about it.  What is the financial incentive for the Tour to speed up?  There doesn't seem to be one!  If viewers aren't running away in droves because of slow play....

Viewers aren't running TO GOLF in droves.  Golf remains a niche sport bc it's long and slow on tv.  

Plus I said VIEWERS running from TV broadcasts, not golfers leaving the game.

And again as I said, the more GOLF BROADCAST time you have (not just ads in-between coverage) the more time you have to put in-game sponsorships on the screen.  Meaning, graphics overlaid during play or stat presentation, and on-site ads like banners, signs, blimps, display cars, tee markers, etc.)  You can't tivo through all of that.

yes. I know you said viewers.  See my First Line.  There's a difference bw lots of golf and slow golf.  If play were faster we would actually see more golf at a more interesting pace.  

It's a subtle distinction.

Edited by monkeynaut, 19 November 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[bscinstnct]

bunter101, on 17 November 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

If it gets any slower Furyk will be getting sponsored by 7 Hour Energy

The guy is brutal. Some win via intimidation.

He wins by annoying.

Can you imagine playing with a guy

Whose routine is to line up a putt and then

Back off

On every putt?!

Its like the Marble Rye!

"Its deliberate I tell Ya!"

Edited by bscinstnct, 19 November 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[biolagolfer]

The PGA Tour probably just doesn't want a tournament decided by a slow play penalty stroke...

If a guy gets penalized for slow play and loses by 1 stroke it would be controversial so they are being soft on the enforcement

[rafal]

Slow play by pro's is Snedeker's problem and his "10mil man problems" aren't my problems so he should not be crying and moaning publicly about an organization that fixes him with that kind of money.

Slow play by amateurs is annoying and it's a different matter.  However, as many of us golfers noticed, it's something that depends on individual "clock."  Some people play fast and some play slow, and it's not something they decide to do but it's a character trait.

[Gone Right]

cxx, on 17 November 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

I don't see how anyone can come down in favor of slow play. It's incredibly inconsiderate to everyone on the golf course, or at least those behind slow players.  It may be an exception, but I was taught at an early age how to play without delay, assessing my next shot while others were playing theirs and being ready when it was my turn.  It's not that difficult.  Probably a little peer pressure within the group would go a long way.  Everyone knows who the slow ones are in their own foursome.  Let them know if they need to pick up the pace.  

Not sure how penalties would work on the tour, but it has to go the individuals causing the delay, not the group.  It's unfortunate that recreational golfers imitate the worst behavior of the tour players.  There is a lot of posing going on.

When I started golf 30 years ago I played a lot with guys who had been playing for much longer than me, and they taught me the etiquette of golf, sometimes in a fairly frank and harsh way.  You were expected to be ready to play your shot when your turn came, and your bag/trolley was always on the correct side of the green, and if you caused any unnecessay delay they let you know about it straight away.  It went much further than pace of play, and it was a very valuable education in how you were expected to conduct yourself on a golf course, but we expected to complete a fourball, competition or not, in around 3 hours on a moderately long course, with lots of rough and trees.  I recently spent five hours on a relatively short course, waiting on every shot, and had lost interest by the 9th.  In my opinion bad manners and a lack of respect for fellow players is at the root of this issue, and until this is addressed matters will get worse rather than better.

[Vindog]

This thread is starting to sound like every other slow play thread.

There are already enough  "look at me I can play fast, why can't everyone else" topics.

It would be nice if we can keep this one confined to the "problem" on tour, and not turn it into an indictment of Joe Schmoe who can't keep a sub 3 hour pace.

Edited by Vindog, 20 November 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Pepperturbo]

True, some pros are faster then others.  But during televised events, pace is driven by the likes of Frank Chirkinian's protege's, advertising and the time slot.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 20 November 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[highergr0und]

The PGA tour sends out pairs of golfers every 10 minutes, they can't finish a round in under 5 hours, and people defend them?

While the local muni sends out 4'somes every 7-8 minutes, and people scream to high heaven about the pace being slow?

[arlingtonz]

This is possibly a rule that could be tried in the fall series at some point, or even on the Web.com tour. Have the person carrying the sign of the score for the group also have a LED 30 second count. The official with the group can remotely start the clock when the player has found, and reasonably assessed the position of the ball. The time does not carry-over. Putts will be extended to 1:00 to allow for fixing pitch marks and being able to read the putt from the other side (but only when on the green).

It doesn't seem much to ask of the pros to just be more deliberate in their assessment of the position and wind. Strike the ball and move on...

[Chilli9880]

I honestly feel that you can't compare slow play on the TOUR to slow play at your course. Slow play on TOUR is mostly discussing options, too many practice swings, unable to pull the trigger, they are playing for millions and thousands of dollars!! I'd take a little more time to make a decision, but once you do pull the trigger. Now slow play at your course, how much of it is age, gender, personality involved. A big thing I've noticed at a bunch of courses... the rough is getting longer... they aren't mowing as much I feel because of the cost of gas. How many times in your past couple rounds has your group had to stop so you all can find a golf ball that you know can't be more than a couple yards from the fairway. I recently played a 3 ½ hour 9-hole round because a half dozen times we had to stop to look for golf balls that were just off the fairway. That ridiculous, I went and told the clubhouse that. We weren't at Oakmont! Sure, some guys probably have no business playing a ProV1 or Hex Black, but when they know their ball isn't far from the fairway, I'd take some time to stop and look for it. Balls are over $3 a pop now! I play with a big group of guys and yes, some of them need to shut up and watch the golf ball on the tee box or some could cut short their green reading routine. But I honestly believe that the TOUR slow play and the recreational slow play are two different problems.

Edited by Chilli9880, 20 November 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[dhc1]

I'm surprised that FedEx hasn't addressed this issue in the playoff point system. Their business is about being on-time. There are different ways to administer the points but I think it would be lots of free and positive advertising for FedEx.

[Vindog]

dhc1, on 20 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I'm surprised that FedEx hasn't addressed this issue in the playoff point system. Their business is about being on-time. There are different ways to administer the points but I think it would be lots of free and positive advertising for FedEx.

There's not many people who even know what slow play is, let alone think it's a problem for the tour.  So, do you think FedEx would rather look "positive" to that minority, or air more commercials?  That's the unfortunate truth.

An above poster nailed this one on the head.