113 replies to this topic

[TML]

rafal, on 16 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

topekareal, on 16 November 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

So because he won a bunch of money he shouldn't point out how ridiculous the pace of play is?

Can't be too ridiculous if he manages to go low anyway, can it now?

Each of us has an internal tempo.  Some of my playing partners are slow, others are crazy fast and barely can wait to hit another shot.  Trying to force them to behave differently messes up their games.

i assume you and your golfing buddies are just amateurs playing for nothing.  Speed it up and keep up with the group ahead.

[nbg352]

Chilli9880, on 20 November 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

I honestly feel that you can't compare slow play on the TOUR to slow play at your course. Slow play on TOUR is mostly discussing options, too many practice swings, unable to pull the trigger, they are playing for millions and thousands of dollars!! I'd take a little more time to make a decision, but once you do pull the trigger. Now slow play at your course, how much of it is age, gender, personality involved. A big thing I've noticed at a bunch of courses... the rough is getting longer... they aren't mowing as much I feel because of the cost of gas. How many times in your past couple rounds has your group had to stop so you all can find a golf ball that you know can't be more than a couple yards from the fairway. I recently played a 3 ½ hour 9-hole round because a half dozen times we had to stop to look for golf balls that were just off the fairway. That ridiculous, I went and told the clubhouse that. We weren't at Oakmont! Sure, some guys probably have no business playing a ProV1 or Hex Black, but when they know their ball isn't far from the fairway, I'd take some time to stop and look for it. Balls are over $3 a pop now! I play with a big group of guys and yes, some of them need to shut up and watch the golf ball on the tee box or some could cut short their green reading routine. But I honestly believe that the TOUR slow play and the recreational slow play are two different problems.

3 1/2 hours for 9 holes? And you're okay with that? And you only had to look for 1/2 doz. balls? Let's see....5 minutes for each ball = 30 minutes of search time. So it took 3 hours to play a 9 hole round of golf, not counting search time?
You boys should be ashamed! And next time, use cheap, losable balls at this time of year!

[rafal]

TML, on 20 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

rafal, on 16 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

topekareal, on 16 November 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

So because he won a bunch of money he shouldn't point out how ridiculous the pace of play is?

Can't be too ridiculous if he manages to go low anyway, can it now?

Each of us has an internal tempo.  Some of my playing partners are slow, others are crazy fast and barely can wait to hit another shot.  Trying to force them to behave differently messes up their games.

i assume you and your golfing buddies are just amateurs playing for nothing.  Speed it up and keep up with the group ahead.

Next time you're stuck behind us just come up and try your luck trying to nudge us

[TML]

rafal, on 20 November 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

TML, on 20 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

rafal, on 16 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

topekareal, on 16 November 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

So because he won a bunch of money he shouldn't point out how ridiculous the pace of play is?

Can't be too ridiculous if he manages to go low anyway, can it now?

Each of us has an internal tempo.  Some of my playing partners are slow, others are crazy fast and barely can wait to hit another shot.  Trying to force them to behave differently messes up their games.

i assume you and your golfing buddies are just amateurs playing for nothing.  Speed it up and keep up with the group ahead.

Next time you're stuck behind us just come up and try your luck trying to nudge us

Spoken like a true group of 4 ninja turtles!  

[H.A. Kerr]

mark m, on 17 November 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I'm with you Bob. My brother and I played today. First ones out after a frost delay. Walked a 6900 yard course and finished in 2:50. If it was a tournament and we were reallly bearing down - it would have been 3:30 max.

First out? What great anecdotal evidence! Please base all your remarks on this totally realistic number!

[Big Ben]

Slow play is an epidemic in golf, I've been saying this for years. I now have first off tee times on the weekends with a handful of my league members and we enjoy and take great pride in our pleasantly brisk pace of 3hrs max. The course has taken notice and always comments on how refreshing it is to see a group play well in a reasonable time frame...BB

Edited by Big Ben, 20 November 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[mark m]

Kerr: Don't like that one, huh?

Here's another. We played the next day (Sunday) in a 5-some. 3 scratch players walking and playing at 6900 and 2 others, a 14 and a 29, riding and playing the 6000 yard tees. We were not the first group out, and we were part of 3 groups in a game - so we play by the rules and putt everything out. We finished in 4 hours flat. We also had to look for at least 5 balls in the leaves/rough. My point is that it should not take 5 hours to play a round of golf. I think it is unreasonable.

I have played in numerous state opens and state am tournaments. They always have a pace of play policy. The max time allowed is usually around 4:30 and it is enforced. It is common at each event that some groups are warned and penalties have occurred. Most of the guys know about it and so speed of play is typically pretty good at around 4:00-4:15. The downside is that the warnings and penalties are typically assessed to the group - and not the individual - and this is part of the policy that I would change (if it was possible). Having twice been in groups that were warned - I can tell you that it can be uncomfortable and creates bad group chemistry and it adds to the difficulty as well. In both of these incidents, we had one member (not me) who was the problem. All things considered, I think the policy is a good one and would rather have it than not. In fact, if we didn't have it and play was slow, I would not enter these tournaments (and the same goes for many of the top players that I know).

The Tours

I am in the camp that thinks slow play on tour is having an effect on the pace of play at our local courses. Too many players emulate what they see on TV. We have a few college tournaments on my home course and they obviously don't enforce a pace of play policy as most of the rounds were taking over 5:30 to complete. This is not a good trend and if the tours did do something - I think it could have a tremendous impact on all levels of golf. I hope that they get started on it soon. Maybe some of the quicker young guys (Sneds, Fowler, etc) will speak up and this will lead to some changes. I also believe the tour would have the capability to time the players and assign the penalties where they belong - to individuals.

Last Point

Does all this excessive time lead to better shots and scores?

Did it help GMac at the (British) Open?
What about Furyk at the Ryder Cup?

Furyk took forever to hit par putts on the last 2 holes (17 &18) during the last round (singles). The crowd even got on him on the 17th hole. It was ridiculous. He had played the course numerous times. He had an experienced caddie, had his green chart, and so on. He missed them both. I am curious as to what he took away from that? He might think he didn't take enough time? I don't know. I wish he would quit all the futzing around and hit the ball. At least try it. And he isn't the only one - I picked those 2 examples because most of the guys here would be familiar with them.

[SHIVAN]

How fast does the ProAm the days leading up to the tournament take?  I bet it takes less time to get the pros and ams around 18 than it does to get just the pros around on their own.

[H.A. Kerr]

tldr

[bosox24]

I know this has been mentioned in this thread, but I think a shot clock is the answer on the PGA tour.  You already have a rules official with each group, so they can start the clock.  You could even feed it into the telecast, which would make watching golf more exciting for many.  It is also easier to watch a round of golf on TV if you know it will be wrapped up in under 5 hours.

I am a traditionalist as much as anybody, but the game needs to speed up for the casual fan.  I believe the telecasts need to add a little excitement with some other changes, but speeding up play is a great start.   It's also in the players' best interest because when ratings are up they make more money.

And to Snedeker's point, I remember on "Feherty" someone (Trevino or Venturi?) saying "A slow player can play with a fast player, but a fast player can't play with a slow player."  Doesn't seem very fair, and encourages all players to be slow.

[Chilli9880]

nbg352, on 20 November 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Chilli9880, on 20 November 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

I honestly feel that you can't compare slow play on the TOUR to slow play at your course. Slow play on TOUR is mostly discussing options, too many practice swings, unable to pull the trigger, they are playing for millions and thousands of dollars!! I'd take a little more time to make a decision, but once you do pull the trigger. Now slow play at your course, how much of it is age, gender, personality involved. A big thing I've noticed at a bunch of courses... the rough is getting longer... they aren't mowing as much I feel because of the cost of gas. How many times in your past couple rounds has your group had to stop so you all can find a golf ball that you know can't be more than a couple yards from the fairway. I recently played a 3 ½ hour 9-hole round because a half dozen times we had to stop to look for golf balls that were just off the fairway. That ridiculous, I went and told the clubhouse that. We weren't at Oakmont! Sure, some guys probably have no business playing a ProV1 or Hex Black, but when they know their ball isn't far from the fairway, I'd take some time to stop and look for it. Balls are over $3 a pop now! I play with a big group of guys and yes, some of them need to shut up and watch the golf ball on the tee box or some could cut short their green reading routine. But I honestly believe that the TOUR slow play and the recreational slow play are two different problems.

3 1/2 hours for 9 holes? And you're okay with that? And you only had to look for 1/2 doz. balls? Let's see....5 minutes for each ball = 30 minutes of search time. So it took 3 hours to play a 9 hole round of golf, not counting search time?
You boys should be ashamed! And next time, use cheap, losable balls at this time of year!

First, it wasn't 5 minutes per ball. Second, No, I'm not ok with it. And third, I'm certainly not going to stand on the first tee box and tell someone what they should and should not be playing. But it's also not solely the golfers fault or within our group specifically because there were tee boxes we were waiting on and I'm sure the group in front of us was having the same problem. There is Mr. 20 handicapper who just bought a sleeve of balls for $12 in the pro shop, hits his shot just off the fairway, not OB, not into the woods, not 20 yards from the fairway, and has to spend multiple minutes looking for his ball. All I'm saying is, that there are many factors into slow play and making the golf course easier would certainly help.

[Vindog]

mark m, on 20 November 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I have played in numerous state opens and state am tournaments. They always have a pace of play policy. The max time allowed is usually around 4:30 and it is enforced. It is common at each event that some groups are warned and penalties have occurred. Most of the guys know about it and so speed of play is typically pretty good at around 4:00-4:15. The downside is that the warnings and penalties are typically assessed to the group - and not the individual - and this is part of the policy that I would change (if it was possible). Having twice been in groups that were warned - I can tell you that it can be uncomfortable and creates bad group chemistry and it adds to the difficulty as well. In both of these incidents, we had one member (not me) who was the problem. All things considered, I think the policy is a good one and would rather have it than not. In fact, if we didn't have it and play was slow, I would not enter these tournaments (and the same goes for many of the top players that I know).

Great, but this is the reality....

How many major network TV cameras were out there for those tournaments?  Were they concerned at all with advertisement dollars and commercials?

[mark m]

Vindog,

As you should know, I brought this point up (in post #20) in a response to one of your posts. I wish we had a TV person here to explain what happens when sporting events run long. There obviously is a downside as other programming gets pushed back and that probably leads to fewer viewers and less revenue for those shows. Why would a company pay full price for an ad scheduled to run in a show at a certain time slot - and then it runs at a much later time?

I do agree with the premise you are making, i.e. that for the PGA tour, money rules. That does seem to be the case. I do see the downside to the current trend and believe that for the good of the game, their purposes and values need to consider more than just the short-term money.

But if it is in the networks best interest to finish on time - then it would be best to get the rules and incentives aligned to meet those goals, correct?

Serious reform would best come from the players themselves. They need a strong majority in favor of doing something. As I mentioned before, with the current set-up I don't see any movement. Maybe next year. I see nothing wrong in guys like Sneds speaking out about this issue. Too many people are sheep and just go along to get along.

[dhc1]

Vindog, on 20 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

dhc1, on 20 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I'm surprised that FedEx hasn't addressed this issue in the playoff point system. Their business is about being on-time. There are different ways to administer the points but I think it would be lots of free and positive advertising for FedEx.

There's not many people who even know what slow play is, let alone think it's a problem for the tour.  So, do you think FedEx would rather look "positive" to that minority, or air more commercials?  That's the unfortunate truth.

An above poster nailed this one on the head.

I think that a pace of play penalty with real teeth would cause a significant stir on the tour and that would have ESPN and mainline sports anchors discussing it quite a bit (when it is first announced, when the first person is penalized, when a leading player loses points and then finally, during the playoffs). Sports fans who don't follow golf would hear that FedEx cares about "on time performance" and has put its money where its mouth is. If spun correctly, it falls right into how they portray themselves.

Edited by dhc1, 21 November 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[dhc1]

Vindog, on 21 November 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

mark m, on 20 November 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I have played in numerous state opens and state am tournaments. They always have a pace of play policy. The max time allowed is usually around 4:30 and it is enforced. It is common at each event that some groups are warned and penalties have occurred. Most of the guys know about it and so speed of play is typically pretty good at around 4:00-4:15. The downside is that the warnings and penalties are typically assessed to the group - and not the individual - and this is part of the policy that I would change (if it was possible). Having twice been in groups that were warned - I can tell you that it can be uncomfortable and creates bad group chemistry and it adds to the difficulty as well. In both of these incidents, we had one member (not me) who was the problem. All things considered, I think the policy is a good one and would rather have it than not. In fact, if we didn't have it and play was slow, I would not enter these tournaments (and the same goes for many of the top players that I know).

Great, but this is the reality....

How many major network TV cameras were out there for those tournaments?  Were they concerned at all with advertisement dollars and commercials?

Why do you think that TV advertising would be negatively impacted by increased speed of play? I think they could get more star player shots on the air. Why wouldn't it be better to see 18 holes of tiger vs rory in the 3-4 hour televised window rather than 10 holes?

I also don't know why this would have an impact on shows running over as it's rare for a tournaments to be shown for over 4 hours , which is likely shorter than the time that pros would be required to play in.

Edited by dhc1, 21 November 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[monkeynaut]

Chilli9880, on 21 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

nbg352, on 20 November 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Chilli9880, on 20 November 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

I honestly feel that you can't compare slow play on the TOUR to slow play at your course. Slow play on TOUR is mostly discussing options, too many practice swings, unable to pull the trigger, they are playing for millions and thousands of dollars!! I'd take a little more time to make a decision, but once you do pull the trigger. Now slow play at your course, how much of it is age, gender, personality involved. A big thing I've noticed at a bunch of courses... the rough is getting longer... they aren't mowing as much I feel because of the cost of gas. How many times in your past couple rounds has your group had to stop so you all can find a golf ball that you know can't be more than a couple yards from the fairway. I recently played a 3 ½ hour 9-hole round because a half dozen times we had to stop to look for golf balls that were just off the fairway. That ridiculous, I went and told the clubhouse that. We weren't at Oakmont! Sure, some guys probably have no business playing a ProV1 or Hex Black, but when they know their ball isn't far from the fairway, I'd take some time to stop and look for it. Balls are over $3 a pop now! I play with a big group of guys and yes, some of them need to shut up and watch the golf ball on the tee box or some could cut short their green reading routine. But I honestly believe that the TOUR slow play and the recreational slow play are two different problems.

3 1/2 hours for 9 holes? And you're okay with that? And you only had to look for 1/2 doz. balls? Let's see....5 minutes for each ball = 30 minutes of search time. So it took 3 hours to play a 9 hole round of golf, not counting search time?
You boys should be ashamed! And next time, use cheap, losable balls at this time of year!

First, it wasn't 5 minutes per ball. Second, No, I'm not ok with it. And third, I'm certainly not going to stand on the first tee box and tell someone what they should and should not be playing. But it's also not solely the golfers fault or within our group specifically because there were tee boxes we were waiting on and I'm sure the group in front of us was having the same problem. There is Mr. 20 handicapper who just bought a sleeve of balls for $12 in the pro shop, hits his shot just off the fairway, not OB, not into the woods, not 20 yards from the fairway, and has to spend multiple minutes looking for his ball. All I'm saying is, that there are many factors into slow play and making the golf course easier would certainly help.

So, did it take 3.5 hours for 9 holes b/c you let 10 groups play through?
You could've taken a putter off the tee and gotten through faster, you'd keep it in the fairway, too.

Seriously, though, the 3.5 hours is an exaggeration, right? 7 hours for 18?  It's enough to make Kevin Na and Ben Crane antsy.
At that point, you shouldn't have to stand on a tee and say anything to anyone. There should be a marshal to do that.  AND the marshal should WANT to do that b/c it's bad for business.  I'm sure there are a lot of people who would look at a 3.5 hour 9 and say "I'm never playing this place again."

[PingDrv00]

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

bscinstnct, on 15 November 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

fore_life, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Who are they slow ones? Ben Crane? Kevin Na? Who else?

jonathan byrd, jj henry, trevor immelman, j.b. holmes, hunter mahan, sergio garcia, jim furyk, tiger woods, keegan bradley, john sendon, charlie wi, bubba watson, justin rose, padraig harrington. It goes on and on and on. The majority of them are slow.

Tiger is slow? I didn't know that.

I thought that he has spoken out against slow play.

I know jack was considered annoyingly slow.

I think the guys on tour need to start saying things to the slow players faces

In his defense, I think a lot of it has to do with the crowd. Although I'm always amazed how often slow play gets brought up on these forums but nobody ever mentions Tiger. It's always Crane and Na like they should be the responsible majority. Tiger is sooooo deliberate aka slow on the greens.

The question is though does he have any where to go.  Slow play is one issue, but the last thing I want to do is wait ten minutes on each shot.  I think that many times players adjust play to the pace in front of them.

[Big Ben]

There is no reason on planet earth (including money) to take more than 4:30hrs to play a round of golf....NONE!!!!!!!!

PACE OF PLAY IS AN EPIDEMIC IN GOLF! Screw worrying about the long/belly putter and focus on educating the new generations on playing faster and with a purpose...BB

[Jamboy72]

Big Ben, on 22 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

There is no reason on planet earth (including money) to take more than 4:30hrs to play a round of golf....NONE!!!!!!!!

PACE OF PLAY IS AN EPIDEMIC IN GOLF! Screw worrying about the long/belly putter and focus on educating the new generations on playing faster and with a purpose...BB

Absolutely correct...For the life of me, I don't understand how people think that it is reasonable for a round of golf to take more than 4.5 hours...but the real problem is the tour has no idea/desire to police the policy they have in place...sometimes the easiest answer is the most obvious even if we don't want to admit it...you either start doing something which holds players accountable or you're going to constantly live in this wishy washy nebulous deal we're in now...

[roll - gybe]

Big Ben, on 22 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

There is no reason on planet earth (including money) to take more than 4:30hrs to play a round of golf....NONE!!!!!!!!

PACE OF PLAY IS AN EPIDEMIC IN GOLF! Screw worrying about the long/belly putter and focus on educating the new generations on playing faster and with a purpose...BB

This.

And I don't like the belly putter.

[roll - gybe]

College players are the worst.

It all comes from the top. On the tour it's the money. In college it's the rank on the team. At the club it is the trophy.  On the weekends it is $5.  All those situations matter to someone.

It is just tremendous selfishness.

At the club level, we have businesses and families to get back to, but the damn slow players are in the way.

[iBanesto]

Quote

During the first round on Wednesday, competitors playing behind Middlecoff demonstratively complained of his slow play. They officially protested to the R&A, which sided with Middlecoff, who had completed his 18-hole round with Antonio Cerdá in three hours and 18 minutes

3 hrs and 18 minutes! Oh no!

We can only wish for that these days.

[Willie Malay]

Slow players should be shot but those that complain about a good pace because they want to get off the course because they have a hot date should be drawn and quartered.

I had a group that plays behind us(why they don't get up 5 minutes earlier and play in front of us I don't know) and complained about our "slow play" 3 weeks in a row. Anyone that knows me, knows I play fast. Our foresome finished all three of those rounds in 3:40. Huh?
I hate slow play as much as anyone but I hate those that complain about a normal to slightly fast round as slow even more.

[StuartRS]

At this moment in time, I wish they would tell Keegan Bradley that he can keep his stupid putter on the condition that he speeds up his hideous pace of play.

At the TW challenge I have just seen him address the club behind the ball 3 times, 90 degrees from the target, looking like he is checking the tee height, then when he finally addresses the ball he backs off the shot because the wind changed! WTF.  Not sure I actually watch golf shots on tv anymore than about 10%, the rest of it is pre-shot routines and discussion.  no wonder I don't watch it that much anymore.