113 replies to this topic

[spitfisher]

I too commend Brandt for speaking out, this should be the fore front of the PGA , USGA to address.
heck I wouldn't mind a "silly season" tourney of how fast the pros could play.....


Brandt Snedeker talks as fast as he plays golf, which is to say at nearly a breakneck pace.
How refreshing.
With the game dealing with a pace-of-play crisis, the 2012 FedEx Cup champion said Thursday on Golf Channel’s “Morning Drive” that the current PGA Tour policy is “inept” and the only way to curb the problem is to hit players on the scorecard – not in the wallet.
Under the current system, a player can receive 10 bad times before receiving his first fine. After that 11^th infraction, the fine increases.
“We’ve got guys playing for millions and you’re fining them very small amounts,” Snedeker said. “I know guys at the beginning of the year who will literally put away their allotment and know this is what I’ll get fined this year. Now I’ll go out and play the way I want to play. I don’t see how that’s going to affect anything.”
Like many before him, Snedeker thinks the only way to fix the problem is to start docking players penalty strokes.
“Those guys realize if I lose a shot on Sunday, that could be a million bucks or $500,000,” he said. “Those guys will start speeding up really quickly.
“Guys who play slow, we all know who they are. I feel like sometimes the guys get a hall pass, because they’ll say, ‘Oh, I’m working on it.’ Well, you’re not working on it really hard, because if you’re literally working on it and you’re still the slowest guy on Tour, then that says something about your work ethic, because it hasn’t changed.”
How has the pace-of-play issue affected his own game?
“It’s kind of pathetic on Tour,” he said, “because there’s no incentive to play faster. I’ve had to slow down. If not, I’m just going to have to wait longer on my next shot.”

[kekoa]

I don't have an end all be all cure either, but this quote made me chuckle a bit.  “It’s kind of pathetic on Tour,” he said, “because there’s no incentive to play faster. I’ve had to slow down. If not, I’m just going to have to wait longer on my next shot.”



If Sneds has slowed it down, I can't imagine the pace he would play at in his weekend game.

[imakaveli]

Well, I don't think the guy is wrong

[gators78]

Pace of play is ruining the game, plain and simple.

[KYMAR]

I just read something, either here or on GC.com about guys forcing themselves to slow down. Oh I know, it was DJ talking about doing things consciously slower in order to arrive at their ball a little later so they don't get there and still have to wait for the Ben Cranes of the world to hit. Hurry up and wait is the tour's policy. They HAVE TO start penalizing these guys with strokes. It's to the point now that it can seriously effect the guys who play at a reasonable or faster pace.

I have no idea what the PGA Tour is doing allowing this issue to linger for this long. What the hell are they afraid of? Just do it, damn man!

[esketores]

Are the people in charge slow players themselves? If so nothing will change.

[StevenF]

the problem is everyone watches these guys take their time on tv and then play that way in their weekend rounds.  I play like Snedeker and it really throws me off when I have to wait 5-10 minutes to make a shot.

Edited by StevenF, 15 November 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

It's a race to the bottom. When there is literally no downside to playing too slowly, then trying to play faster just makes a player frustrated. Better to do as Sneds mentions and just slow down so you're not standing forever beside your ball waiting.

And so a new low is set. And there's no downside to some player slower still. Which forces everyone to slow down to accomodate them. Setting a new low. From which yet another round of slowing down can commence.

A player who wants to play faster than the norm on Tour has no recourse. He is just screwed and has to learn to live with it. But a player who wants to play slower can nibble away here and there, dodging any actual consequences by speeding up momentarily until he's safe again.

It is a fundamental asymmetry of consequences. The slow players hold all the power over this situation. Just like a nasty divorce where whichever party wants to start dragging the process through the mud forces the other person to either get dirty as well or get taken advantage of.

[tofur99]

I feel like everyone agrees on this, yet nothing gets done about it.  they instead decide to focus on banning long putters which is ridiculous when they have 3-4 other issues that are way more in need of attention.

[Sean2]

tofur99, on 15 November 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I feel like everyone agrees on this, yet nothing gets done about it.  they instead decide to focus on banning long putters which is ridiculous when they have 3-4 other issues that are way more in need of attention.

It's been an issue in the past. It's an issue now. It'll be an issue in the future.

[Password Is Taco]

I really wish players would start calling out other players more.  Almost everytime a player is asked about slow play they say "Yeah it's a really big problem," and use a "we all know who they are," type of phrase.  Start calling specific players out and try to shame them.  Force them to have to answer questions during their interviews about their past 4 playing partners who called them out for playing ridiculously slow.

[poizster]

Why would the PGA Tour give out penalty strokes when they can line their pockets with cash?

[fore_life]

Who are they slow ones? Ben Crane? Kevin Na? Who else?

[Snufles]

KYMAR, on 15 November 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

I just read something, either here or on GC.com about guys forcing themselves to slow down. Oh I know, it was DJ talking about doing things consciously slower in order to arrive at their ball a little later so they don't get there and still have to wait for the Ben Cranes of the world to hit. Hurry up and wait is the tour's policy. They HAVE TO start penalizing these guys with strokes. It's to the point now that it can seriously effect the guys who play at a reasonable or faster pace.

I have no idea what the PGA Tour is doing allowing this issue to linger for this long. What the hell are they afraid of? Just do it, damn man!

I read on here about the college coaches teaching slow play.

http://www.golfwrx.c...-college-level/

[poizster]

fore_life, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Who are they slow ones? Ben Crane? Kevin Na? Who else?

jonathan byrd, jj henry, trevor immelman, j.b. holmes, hunter mahan, sergio garcia, jim furyk, tiger woods, keegan bradley, john sendon, charlie wi, bubba watson, justin rose, padraig harrington. It goes on and on and on. The majority of them are slow.

Edited by poizster, 15 November 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[farmer]

When there's a limited number of players on the course, every single one can really, really play, all the pertinent information is on hand, how does it take so long to play?  OCD anyone?  Endlessly discussing shot options, ten grass throws, four or five practice swings, step in, step out, pick another club, repeat.  It's a wonder these guys ever finish.

[iBanesto]

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

fore_life, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Who are they slow ones? Ben Crane? Kevin Na? Who else?

jonathan byrd, jj henry, trevor immelman, j.b. holmes, hunter mahan, sergio garcia, jim furyk, tiger woods, keegan bradley, john sendon, charlie wi, bubba watson, justin rose, padraig harrington. It goes on and on and on. The majority of them are slow.

Webb Simpson.

Slow isn't the the most diplomatic word. "Deliberate" or "meticulous" tend to used a lot.

[bscinstnct]

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

fore_life, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Who are they slow ones? Ben Crane? Kevin Na? Who else?

jonathan byrd, jj henry, trevor immelman, j.b. holmes, hunter mahan, sergio garcia, jim furyk, tiger woods, keegan bradley, john sendon, charlie wi, bubba watson, justin rose, padraig harrington. It goes on and on and on. The majority of them are slow.

Tiger is slow? I didn't know that.

I thought that he has spoken out against slow play.

I know jack was considered annoyingly slow.

I think the guys on tour need to start saying things to the slow players faces

Edited by bscinstnct, 15 November 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Vindog]

iBanesto, on 15 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

fore_life, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Who are they slow ones? Ben Crane? Kevin Na? Who else?

jonathan byrd, jj henry, trevor immelman, j.b. holmes, hunter mahan, sergio garcia, jim furyk, tiger woods, keegan bradley, john sendon, charlie wi, bubba watson, justin rose, padraig harrington. It goes on and on and on. The majority of them are slow.

Webb Simpson.

Slow isn't the the most diplomatic word. "Deliberate" or "meticulous" tend to used a lot.

Many of them are slow.  More than people want to admit, and maybe even specific players that people won't want to admit.  There are some of the obvious well known ones, but let's not pretend it's just a select few.  The tour cultures it, whether it's intentional or not...

[mark m]

I agree Vindog....too bad for us that amateur golfers model this behavior.

One thing I always wondered about is when a televised tournament runs long - how does this effect the money they make? Do they make extra from those ads? Or is it a wash because it could be goofing up the schedule that follows the tournament? (Just wondering if they are incentivized to play slow? Is there a downside?)

The players in many ways police themselves by those they elect to the Board and Player Advisory Council.
Take a look and you tell me if you think these guys want to address this issue?

2012 PGA Tour Policy Board (9 members - 4 of which are players):
Furyk
Goydos
Love III
Stricker

2012 PAC (16 members)

Cink
Crane
Day
Duke
Frazar
Hoffman
Kuchar
Joe Ogilvie
Petterson
Rose
Sheehan
Simpson
Stroud
Van Pelt
Verplank
Wilson

I can't see any movement. Wish I was wrong.
Not sure who is on for next year (2013)

Edited by mark m, 15 November 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[Sean2]

^^^Maybe they should replace those players with members of GolfWRX.

[poizster]

bscinstnct, on 15 November 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

fore_life, on 15 November 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Who are they slow ones? Ben Crane? Kevin Na? Who else?

jonathan byrd, jj henry, trevor immelman, j.b. holmes, hunter mahan, sergio garcia, jim furyk, tiger woods, keegan bradley, john sendon, charlie wi, bubba watson, justin rose, padraig harrington. It goes on and on and on. The majority of them are slow.

Tiger is slow? I didn't know that.

I thought that he has spoken out against slow play.

I know jack was considered annoyingly slow.

I think the guys on tour need to start saying things to the slow players faces

In his defense, I think a lot of it has to do with the crowd. Although I'm always amazed how often slow play gets brought up on these forums but nobody ever mentions Tiger. It's always Crane and Na like they should be the responsible majority. Tiger is sooooo deliberate aka slow on the greens.

[imakaveli]

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour give out penalty strokes when they can line their pockets with cash?

Improving the game?

[Stretch]

imakaveli, on 16 November 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

poizster, on 15 November 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Why would the PGA Tour give out penalty strokes when they can line their pockets with cash?

Improving the game?

Sorry, that rationale has already been earmarked for banning anchored putting.

[iBanesto]

At least some of the slow players now are not as slow as Cary Middlecoff!

So there has been some signs of improvement in the last 60+ years.

[MattTheTaff]

This is just another reason for why I love Snedeker.

He can play golf with me anyday of the week.

Hope he bags a major next season

[bogey_bakes]

The solution is simple.  Put a shot clock on every shot, including putts.  Your turn?  You have 24 seconds to hit the ball.  Period.  And enforce it rigorously with the penalty being docked shots.  Just like Snedeker says.  

There is a rule in basketball that you have 10 seconds to shoot a free throw after the referee hands you the ball.  The penalty is that you lose a free throw.  When was the last time you saw a violation?  Never.  My point is that players will adapt.

I also think they should also go back to continuous putting.  There are some problems with the rule, I will admit that.  But it will send a message to players and fans, and it will help change the culture of the game.  It should take no more than 4 hours to play a competitive round of golf.  And it should only take 3.5 hours, at a maximum, for a recreational round.

Baseball has the same problem.  I have the answer, if Bud Selig would listen.  They need to get rid of mound visits, and do not allow on field warm ups when pitchers are changed.  Imagine a coach going out to talk to a player before shooting a free throw--that's the equivalent of a mound visit.  Dumb.  Or if a sub in basketball gets to run around on the court and take some practice shots before they start back up.  Really dumb.  There are bullpens on all major league fields, so players are plenty warmed up.  Make them pitch right away.  That will make managers hesitate a bit more before changing pitchers, which will in turn speed up the game.  Plus, a fairly radical change like this will send a message to both players and fans: Speed it up!  Change the culture.

My point is that there are two sports with time issues that are affecting their popularity.  The leaders in these leagues need to take significant action that sends a message.  If they don't, their audiences and revenues will continue to atrophy.

[mwkbmw]

bogey_bakes, on 16 November 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

The solution is simple.  Put a shot clock on every shot, including putts.  Your turn?  You have 24 seconds to hit the ball.  Period.  And enforce it rigorously with the penalty being docked shots.  Just like Snedeker says.  

There is a rule in basketball that you have 10 seconds to shoot a free throw after the referee hands you the ball.  The penalty is that you lose a free throw.  When was the last time you saw a violation?  Never.  My point is that players will adapt.

I also think they should also go back to continuous putting.  There are some problems with the rule, I will admit that.  But it will send a message to players and fans, and it will help change the culture of the game.  It should take no more than 4 hours to play a competitive round of golf.  And it should only take 3.5 hours, at a maximum, for a recreational round.

Baseball has the same problem.  I have the answer, if Bud Selig would listen.  They need to get rid of mound visits, and do not allow on field warm ups when pitchers are changed.  Imagine a coach going out to talk to a player before shooting a free throw--that's the equivalent of a mound visit.  Dumb.  Or if a sub in basketball gets to run around on the court and take some practice shots before they start back up.  Really dumb.  There are bullpens on all major league fields, so players are plenty warmed up.  Make them pitch right away.  That will make managers hesitate a bit more before changing pitchers, which will in turn speed up the game.  Plus, a fairly radical change like this will send a message to both players and fans: Speed it up!  Change the culture.

My point is that there are two sports with time issues that are affecting their popularity.  The leaders in these leagues need to take significant action that sends a message.  If they don't, their audiences and revenues will continue to atrophy.

The mound on the playing field is surely different than the bullpen. I do not think it is unreasonable to allow a pitcher 8 throws to adjust to the different mound. I think the problem in baseball is the same as golf. Slow players play slowly. I mean really, how often does a batter need to step out of the batter's box and readjust the Velcro on his batting gloves? All these guys just want to maximize their time in front of the camera. More exposure means more money from endorsements. Either that or it's purely their huge egos making them think that the world revolves around them.

I think money is at the root of slow play to a degree. Each stroke is worth so much money nowadays that it affects players' confidence.

[Pepperturbo]

I agree with Snedeker.  Fine them strokes, not money, and then we'll see some improvement.  I know its not possible, but how about the opposite for average Joe; fine him $$ for slow play...

[tembolo1284]

give them 30 seconds and if they haven't hit it yet give them a warning. Second time around it's a penalty. Third time 2 strokes.
4th time pack your bags and get out because you've just been DQ'ed you porker.