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Jim McLean's opinion on Internet golf instruction


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#1 golfdu

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:15 PM

http://jimmclean.com...e-Internet.aspx

Yikes.


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#2 russc

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:10 AM

There is a lot of   instructional golf material on the  internet .Most of it  is trash as Mr Mclean implies,but some of it is outstanding,much better than Mr Mclean has ever produced.Remember Mr Mclean's "so called research" came up with the idea of the x factor and its subsequent suggestion on the need to restrict the hip turn going back. ; he  later admitted that the original idea was not entirely  correct .I have no idea how   many golfers were adversely affected by this suggestion,but it was "dangerous" for many players .Since  Mr Mclean cites  Mr Neal in his arguments ,then does Mr Mclean also subscribe to the  same conclusions as  Mr Manzella, since Mr Neal was a prominent expert in Mr Manzella's summits.?  And Mr Mclean's statement  that instructors are selective and biased in their material just to illustrate their point is the ultimate example of the "pot calling the kettle black".In one of the recent discussions about moving  the head laterally  during the backswing Mr McClean  chose 4 or 5 golfers who did move their head going back.I then had to spend all of 3 months  ,well actually it was more like 5 minutes to find golfers who illustrate the lack of head movement going back.
Mr Mclean has been a prolific writer of books and articles in the major magazines over the last 25 years and as such has been among the most influential golf instructors .but have his books and articles  made a significant impact upon the golfing public?No ,not if handicaps are any standard.
Do not mistake my comments as trashing Mr Mcleans' ideas. IMOP he has produced some very  good material.but i wish that he would get off his high horse and stop his condescending remarks about anyone  who does subscribe to the Mclean mantra.Maybe it  is because  he wants to maintain the mystery of the golfswing and that golfers need to spend money on HIS material to unlock this mystery.A few more weeks in the stock market like the last week and lots of Mr Mcleans potentiall customers will not be visiting WEST Miami this winter and paying his outrageous prices .

Edited by russc, 15 November 2012 - 12:33 AM.


#3 Sean2

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:16 AM

And, for every "tip" you read in Golf Digest or Golf Magazine, or whatever publication, you'll usually find one that tells you to do the exact opposite somewhere down the road. If Jim is God's gift to the golf swing, then how come we aren't all scratch golfers after reading his words of wisdom for so many years?
Hey...be nice.

#4 Mike Divot

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:15 AM

Jim sounds like a nice guy, and he has some good ideas about golf. (That the swing is an athletic movement similar to throwing, baseball, tennis, etc; that kids should just have fun and not get too regimented about learning golf; etc.)

One-on-one, he may be a great instructor.

But that X-factor business killed a large slice of his credibility, permanently. The "breakthrough" that left many broken.

Many internet instructors no doubt are "dangerous to your game". But so has Mr McLean himself been "dangerous to your game".

#5 crapula

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

Golfers: Be Careful what you read on the Internet


I didn't read it, something about the title made me too cautious.

Edited by crapula, 15 November 2012 - 07:50 PM.

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#6 golfsavvy

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:52 AM

Tough crowd.  Miller, & now McLean.  X factor notwithstanding, he makes a few points.  The traditional teaching model is broken, which may be to what he is alluding.  Faults and fixes, diagnosis and correction.  One model fits all.  At some point even though more instruction may be applied, the swing no longer gets significantly better.  Players plateau.  Equipment fits.  Skill sets become set.  Yet pros continue the mantra of working harder on swing techniques (full, short game, whatever) with little added improvement.  Many players don't, can't, or don't wish to put further work into their swing technique.  That's a given.  Rote practice for many is boring.  Why are players not getting better?  We should look at the nature of the instruction, and the overall premise.

#7 Stretch

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:24 AM

Posted Image

They even got the hair color right!

#8 MadGolfer76

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:38 AM

I wonder if he considers quoting himself to be "great" golf research?
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#9 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:07 AM

When an established golf teacher criticizes less established teachers .... it's always going to sound pompous.  
He should know better.

#10 dlam

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:31 AM

I find restricted hip turn works very well for wedges
Not so good for drivers


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#11 Cmartingolf

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:40 AM

I've met Jim and he's a super guy. That said, I'm not sure why he continually sets himself up to take shots like this. Unless of course you want the attention. If nobody is talking about you, nobody is talking (or blogging) about you:)

#12 DonD

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:43 AM

If memory serves, wasn't the "X Factor" essentially the idea that one should turn the hips much less than the shoulders, thereby creating the ability to generate more clubhead speed?  If that is the general idea, wouldn't it be accurate to say that the "modern swing" used by most players today absolutely features this dynamic?

Not looking to start an argument...really want to know people's thoughts...I was surprised to see the comments here about McLean and the "X Factor"...I didn't realize it was a source of such controversy, but I'm definitely not as dialed into these things as many on this board are.

View PostMike Divot, on 15 November 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

Jim sounds like a nice guy, and he has some good ideas about golf. (That the swing is an athletic movement similar to throwing, baseball, tennis, etc; that kids should just have fun and not get too regimented about learning golf; etc.)

One-on-one, he may be a great instructor.

But that X-factor business killed a large slice of his credibility, permanently. The "breakthrough" that left many broken.

Many internet instructors no doubt are "dangerous to your game". But so has Mr McLean himself been "dangerous to your game".

Edited by DonD, 16 November 2012 - 08:44 AM.


#13 Stretch

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:09 AM

Quote

I think most of you realize that teaching a method is the easy way out for a lazy teacher.  Why?  They just learn one way to teach everybody.  It's the same lesson over and over.

As opposed to the traditional model of coming up with "new" marketing bullsh1t over and over?
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#14 cbrian

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostDonD, on 16 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

If memory serves, wasn't the "X Factor" essentially the idea that one should turn the hips much less than the shoulders, thereby creating the ability to generate more clubhead speed?  If that is the general idea, wouldn't it be accurate to say that the "modern swing" used by most players today absolutely features this dynamic?

Not looking to start an argument...really want to know people's thoughts...I was surprised to see the comments here about McLean and the "X Factor"...I didn't realize it was a source of such controversy, but I'm definitely not as dialed into these things as many on this board are.


The idea was to restrict the hip turn to get the greatest differential. While yes, you do see a big differential with some of the guys on tour, theres a long list of reasons for why it wasn't the best idea to sell to the general public.

As for his recent (starting a year or two back) comments, I think its fairly sad. Its one thing to have a disagreement with someone and air that disagreement. However, its another matter entirely to criticize people just for the sake of drawing attention to yourself.

#15 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:35 PM

View Postcbrian, on 16 November 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

View PostDonD, on 16 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

If memory serves, wasn't the "X Factor" essentially the idea that one should turn the hips much less than the shoulders, thereby creating the ability to generate more clubhead speed?  If that is the general idea, wouldn't it be accurate to say that the "modern swing" used by most players today absolutely features this dynamic?

Not looking to start an argument...really want to know people's thoughts...I was surprised to see the comments here about McLean and the "X Factor"...I didn't realize it was a source of such controversy, but I'm definitely not as dialed into these things as many on this board are.




The idea was to restrict the hip turn to get the greatest differential. While yes, you do see a big differential with some of the guys on tour, theres a long list of reasons for why it wasn't the best idea to sell to the general public.

As for his recent (starting a year or two back) comments, I think its fairly sad. Its one thing to have a disagreement with someone and air that disagreement. However, its another matter entirely to criticize people just for the sake of drawing attention to yourself.

Here's what's funny.  I spent a week working at a PGA Tour event almost every month since May.  Most PGA Tour players do not find most of the big name gurus very helpful.  That was the most polite way I could put it.

X-factor is nonsense like lag.  You make a cohesive swing, you get them.  You try to create them, you get something you step in on the sidewalk.

The oppsoite is actually true.  You want a free hip turn and if you turn at the proper angle, you create all the x-factor you need.

Restricting hips causes getting stuck and lower back injuries.

Edited by MonteScheinblum, 16 November 2012 - 12:38 PM.

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#16 kevcarter

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...
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#17 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:56 PM

View Postkevcarter, on 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...

No wonder I see so many threads and get so many emails from people with the shanks and snap hooks...LOL.

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#18 3righthands

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

The "top teachers" thing is kinda like the "Great Steakhouses of America" add you see in the airplane magazine.

#19 Stretch

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:08 PM

Hey hey, a lot of those restaurants cook their meat ON SWORDS! Are you cooking your meat ON SWORDS right now? If not, you should SHUT UP!

#20 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:08 PM

View Post3righthands, on 16 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

The "top teachers" thing is kinda like the "Great Steakhouses of America" add you see in the airplane magazine.

Great analogy.

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#21 DonD

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

Wait...are you saying those aren't the best steakhouses in America????  :swoon:

View Post3righthands, on 16 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

The "top teachers" thing is kinda like the "Great Steakhouses of America" add you see in the airplane magazine.


#22 DonD

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:16 PM

Thanks for the insight, Monte...I could defintely see how making an overt effort to restrict hip turn while maximizing shoulder turn would be a recipe for many problems, not the least of which would be injury...especially since the typically "weekend golfer" - skill level notwithstanding - isn't exercising and conditioning to be able to make such a move (whether the "move" is a good idea in and of itself or not).


Been playing my whole life - over 40 years now - I liked it better when I was just supposed to make a repeatable swing and shoot the lowest score possible; no matter what I looked like on videotape or if I was in the "right positions."

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 16 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

View Postcbrian, on 16 November 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

View PostDonD, on 16 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

If memory serves, wasn't the "X Factor" essentially the idea that one should turn the hips much less than the shoulders, thereby creating the ability to generate more clubhead speed?  If that is the general idea, wouldn't it be accurate to say that the "modern swing" used by most players today absolutely features this dynamic?

Not looking to start an argument...really want to know people's thoughts...I was surprised to see the comments here about McLean and the "X Factor"...I didn't realize it was a source of such controversy, but I'm definitely not as dialed into these things as many on this board are.




The idea was to restrict the hip turn to get the greatest differential. While yes, you do see a big differential with some of the guys on tour, theres a long list of reasons for why it wasn't the best idea to sell to the general public.

As for his recent (starting a year or two back) comments, I think its fairly sad. Its one thing to have a disagreement with someone and air that disagreement. However, its another matter entirely to criticize people just for the sake of drawing attention to yourself.

Here's what's funny.  I spent a week working at a PGA Tour event almost every month since May.  Most PGA Tour players do not find most of the big name gurus very helpful.  That was the most polite way I could put it.

X-factor is nonsense like lag.  You make a cohesive swing, you get them.  You try to create them, you get something you step in on the sidewalk.

The oppsoite is actually true.  You want a free hip turn and if you turn at the proper angle, you create all the x-factor you need.

Restricting hips causes getting stuck and lower back injuries.


#23 kevcarter

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 16 November 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...

No wonder I see so many threads and get so many emails from people with the shanks and snap hooks...LOL.

J/K

LOL

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#24 grizztrax

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:31 PM

I have a good friend who in the last couple years has been featured in the "Top Instructors Under 40" articles in both Golf Digest and Golf Magazine.  He was only half joking when he said the only reason he made it in there was meeting one of the editors of the magazine, and they were both huge Dave Matthews Band fans.  These Instructors are in there because of relationships and marketing, including the big dogs.  Not saying there isn't anything of value in their instruction, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.  They are not the end-all, be-all of instruction knowledge.

#25 Sean2

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:07 PM

I know a local gentleman who is FANTASTIC. Personally I think he could run rings around these supposed "gurus" (who I've seen on TV, whose articles and books I've read). And the rates they charge? They could take lesson from Manuel de la Torre.

Hey...be nice.

#26 russc

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 16 November 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...

No wonder I see so many threads and get so many emails from people with the shanks and snap hooks...LOL.

J/K
Monte
i do not appreciate it when you refer to my emails in public .And please s do not post that video that i recently sent you that looked like a flip that would duck hook the ball but really ended up as a hosel rocket.

#27 golfsavvy

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:30 PM

View Postrussc, on 16 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 16 November 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...

No wonder I see so many threads and get so many emails from people with the shanks and snap hooks...LOL.

J/K
Monte
i do not appreciate it when you refer to my emails in public .And please s do not post that video that i recently sent you that looked like a flip that would duck hook the ball but really ended up as a hosel rocket.

If you played for the hosel rocket, I don't see a problem...

#28 crapula

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

View Postkevcarter, on 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...

Lag pressure and lag are two different things. You can still have lag pressure and not have lag (holding the angle). Lag pressure is felt in the hands (and arms/ shoulders), it does not require holding lag.

Edited by crapula, 16 November 2012 - 02:47 PM.

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#29 russc

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

View Postgolfsavvy, on 16 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

View Postrussc, on 16 November 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 16 November 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...

No wonder I see so many threads and get so many emails from people with the shanks and snap hooks...LOL.

J/K
Monte
i do not appreciate it when you refer to my emails in public .And please s do not post that video that i recently sent you that looked like a flip that would duck hook the ball but really ended up as a hosel rocket.

If you played for the hosel rocket, I don't see a problem...
i always suggest that golfer develop  a one way miss.A two way miss is very frustrating.If i play for the snap hook and aim into the right woods ,i might end up backswards to the right if i hit my hosel rocket.If i aim into the left woods  for my hosel rocket and hit my snap hook,i might end backwards to the left.I guess with either shot I do not have to worry about losing it in the wind

#30 kevcarter

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

View Postcrapula, on 16 November 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 16 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Lag pressure is still a very viable concept for many teachers and players...

Lag pressure and lag are two different things. You can still have lag pressure and not have lag (holding the angle). Lag pressure is felt in the hands (and arms/ shoulders), it does not require holding lag.

Thank you for the lesson.

I could be wrong.
I have been before.
I will be again.
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GEOMETRICALLY ORIENTED LINEAR FORCE
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