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How far is the retail driver off from the real loft ?


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#31 MadGolfer76

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:11 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 16 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

View Postsunnyus, on 13 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Currently I'm playing the TM superdeep tour issue 10.5 loft.
I don't know its real loft, but should be 10.x or 11.x since it's the tour issue.

I'm planing to buy a Cally RAZR FIT TA.
Since it's an retail product, real loft will be 1-2 degree higher than marked. right ?
How far is the retail driver off from the real loft ?
If it is way far, I'd like to pick 9.5. If it's close, 10.5 will be fine.
Any opinion ?
Thanks

Sorry to tell you this, but this is one area in golf club sales that is really, I mean REALLY getting to be messed up.   As Pepperturbo said, there are some companies who are INTENTIONALLY making the loft of some of their models to be higher than what is printed on the head.  There is no way to know what companies do this, and on which of their head models they do this, unless you get someone who is competent at woodhead loft measurement using a proper clubhead specs measurement gauge to measure the loft.

In addition, every company's heads are subject to a normal +/-1 deg tolerance for loft in the production of their heads.

And even with a head specs measurement gauge, it is darn hard to get accurate loft measurements on driver heads these days and takes someone who has been properly trained on how to fixture the head in the specs gauge to do it right.   Most of today's driver heads are designed so the sole has a little bit of radius from face to back.  Old days all woodheads only had radius from toe to heel while face to back was dead flat.  Those heads were easy to fixture in a gauge for accurate loft reading.

But now with all these drivers having some amount of face to back radius, it is darn difficult to know precisely how to set up the head in the specs gauge to get a correct loft reading.  This is also one of several reasons why I stick with the same head production factories to manufacture my woodhead designs - so they are totally in synch with me on how I define the fixturing of a woodhead in the specs gauge to get the right loft reading.   Were I to have to switch head making factories for my production, job one is always to teach them how I measure woodhead loft on woodheads with a face to back sole radius so we are all on the same page.

This is yet another good reason to be working with an experienced clubmaker to get your sticks rather than to buy in a golf store off the rack.  

TOM

So then, are all "Tour Issue" heads properly measured for COR as well? Just curious, I have never felt compelled to buy one, but is that what really sets them apart, or that they are closer to stated loft, etc.?

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#32 TomWishon

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 16 November 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:


So then, are all "Tour Issue" heads properly measured for COR as well? Just curious, I have never felt compelled to buy one, but is that what really sets them apart, or that they are closer to stated loft, etc.?

I really can't tell you what any of the OEM companies do when they sell something that they call a "Tour Issue" head.  I've never been involved in stuff like this with any of the OEM companies so I can't really tell you what all that they may or may not do when they sell a club and say it is a tour issue.

The only areas related to this about which I do have personal knowledge is to tell you that some of these companies will make a special version of a mass marketed model specifically for this or that tour player.  Sometimes a tour player doesn't like one or more aspects of the head that the OEM has made for mass market sales in pro shops or golf stores.  Might be a shape difference, might be a CG position difference and how that relates to a launch angle and spin result.  Bottom line is if the tour player has enough clout with the company (meaning if they are paying him more than a usual fee), then the tour player can demand they make something special for his personal requirements.

Of course the OEM company wants whatever special model they make to look like what they are selling off the rack, so they typically will try their best to do what the tour player wants, but then do the artwork/names/colors the same as they do on the stock model so that when people at tournaments see the player using this club, they think it is the same as the stock head.   From that, since so few heads would be made from the tooling they had to create to make this or that player's special club, they might choose to make a few more and then offer them as a "tour issue".  

Outside of that in which I have had experience, I can't tell you anything more specific about what any of these companies' current tour issue offerings might entail.

TOM

#33 Pepperturbo

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 16 November 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

View PostTomWishon, on 16 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

View Postsunnyus, on 13 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Currently I'm playing the TM superdeep tour issue 10.5 loft.
I don't know its real loft, but should be 10.x or 11.x since it's the tour issue.

I'm planing to buy a Cally RAZR FIT TA.
Since it's an retail product, real loft will be 1-2 degree higher than marked. right ?
How far is the retail driver off from the real loft ?
If it is way far, I'd like to pick 9.5. If it's close, 10.5 will be fine.
Any opinion ?
Thanks

Sorry to tell you this, but this is one area in golf club sales that is really, I mean REALLY getting to be messed up.   As Pepperturbo said, there are some companies who are INTENTIONALLY making the loft of some of their models to be higher than what is printed on the head.  There is no way to know what companies do this, and on which of their head models they do this, unless you get someone who is competent at woodhead loft measurement using a proper clubhead specs measurement gauge to measure the loft.

In addition, every company's heads are subject to a normal +/-1 deg tolerance for loft in the production of their heads.

And even with a head specs measurement gauge, it is darn hard to get accurate loft measurements on driver heads these days and takes someone who has been properly trained on how to fixture the head in the specs gauge to do it right.   Most of today's driver heads are designed so the sole has a little bit of radius from face to back.  Old days all woodheads only had radius from toe to heel while face to back was dead flat.  Those heads were easy to fixture in a gauge for accurate loft reading.

But now with all these drivers having some amount of face to back radius, it is darn difficult to know precisely how to set up the head in the specs gauge to get a correct loft reading.  This is also one of several reasons why I stick with the same head production factories to manufacture my woodhead designs - so they are totally in synch with me on how I define the fixturing of a woodhead in the specs gauge to get the right loft reading.   Were I to have to switch head making factories for my production, job one is always to teach them how I measure woodhead loft on woodheads with a face to back sole radius so we are all on the same page.

This is yet another good reason to be working with an experienced clubmaker to get your sticks rather than to buy in a golf store off the rack.  

TOM

So then, are all "Tour Issue" heads properly measured for COR as well? Just curious, I have never felt compelled to buy one, but is that what really sets them apart, or that they are closer to stated loft, etc.?

I happen to have some tour issue and prototype pieces, including early stage prototype shafts.  I would not suggest an average golfer spend money on prototype equipment, nor would I suggest buying "tour issue" heads, unless you know the seller, and the pieces are guaranteed to meet USGA requirements; which is difficult to insure when buying from any unknown source.  Some tour issue pieces might be early stage prototype and not meet USGA specs, while other pieces meet USGA specs, but never make production, due to less then optimum design, not to mention difficult to handle even for a seasoned tour player.

For example, I have one 430cc driver head that meets USGA COG limit, however, it's closer and higher then center on the face, not forgiving to speak of, and it's 9.5* loft is spot on; talk about a low ball flight, but a grooved swing is needed, otherwise it's a hook or slice machine that goes no where.  Also some early stage prototype shafts I have are heavier, lower torque, and higher bend profiles vs the comparable shafts that made it to market.

Additionally, I was told by tour player friends that their "tour Issue" heads (Titleist) specs are pre-measured to insure each spec adheres to USGA requirements, because the USGA conducts random spec tests at certain events.
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#34 MadGolfer76

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:35 AM

View PostPepperturbo, on 21 November 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 16 November 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

View PostTomWishon, on 16 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

View Postsunnyus, on 13 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Currently I'm playing the TM superdeep tour issue 10.5 loft.
I don't know its real loft, but should be 10.x or 11.x since it's the tour issue.

I'm planing to buy a Cally RAZR FIT TA.
Since it's an retail product, real loft will be 1-2 degree higher than marked. right ?
How far is the retail driver off from the real loft ?
If it is way far, I'd like to pick 9.5. If it's close, 10.5 will be fine.
Any opinion ?
Thanks

Sorry to tell you this, but this is one area in golf club sales that is really, I mean REALLY getting to be messed up.   As Pepperturbo said, there are some companies who are INTENTIONALLY making the loft of some of their models to be higher than what is printed on the head.  There is no way to know what companies do this, and on which of their head models they do this, unless you get someone who is competent at woodhead loft measurement using a proper clubhead specs measurement gauge to measure the loft.

In addition, every company's heads are subject to a normal +/-1 deg tolerance for loft in the production of their heads.

And even with a head specs measurement gauge, it is darn hard to get accurate loft measurements on driver heads these days and takes someone who has been properly trained on how to fixture the head in the specs gauge to do it right.   Most of today's driver heads are designed so the sole has a little bit of radius from face to back.  Old days all woodheads only had radius from toe to heel while face to back was dead flat.  Those heads were easy to fixture in a gauge for accurate loft reading.

But now with all these drivers having some amount of face to back radius, it is darn difficult to know precisely how to set up the head in the specs gauge to get a correct loft reading.  This is also one of several reasons why I stick with the same head production factories to manufacture my woodhead designs - so they are totally in synch with me on how I define the fixturing of a woodhead in the specs gauge to get the right loft reading.   Were I to have to switch head making factories for my production, job one is always to teach them how I measure woodhead loft on woodheads with a face to back sole radius so we are all on the same page.

This is yet another good reason to be working with an experienced clubmaker to get your sticks rather than to buy in a golf store off the rack.  

TOM

So then, are all "Tour Issue" heads properly measured for COR as well? Just curious, I have never felt compelled to buy one, but is that what really sets them apart, or that they are closer to stated loft, etc.?

I happen to have some tour issue and prototype pieces, including early stage prototype shafts.  I would not suggest an average golfer spend money on prototype equipment, nor would I suggest buying "tour issue" heads, unless you know the seller, and the pieces are guaranteed to meet USGA requirements; which is difficult to insure when buying from any unknown source.  Some tour issue pieces might be early stage prototype and not meet USGA specs, while other pieces meet USGA specs, but never make production, due to less then optimum design, not to mention difficult to handle even for a seasoned tour player.

For example, I have one 430cc driver head that meets USGA COG limit, however, it's closer and higher then center on the face, not forgiving to speak of, and it's 9.5* loft is spot on; talk about a low ball flight, but a grooved swing is needed, otherwise it's a hook or slice machine that goes no where.  Also some early stage prototype shafts I have are heavier, lower torque, and higher bend profiles vs the comparable shafts that made it to market.

Additionally, I was told by tour player friends that their "tour Issue" heads (Titleist) specs are pre-measured to insure each spec adheres to USGA requirements, because the USGA conducts random spec tests at certain events.

Yeah, I always just wondered what it was about any "TI" club that made people want to spend approximately the same for a driver as they would for a whole set of irons. Got to wondering if I was missing something, but apparently not. Two or three extra yards (if any) isn't worth an extra couple hundred bucks, to me anyway.
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#35 enduro

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:20 PM

Never understood the appeal of buying tour heads myself either.  Given the inconsistency  of measuring driver lofts  and the .830  COR limitations, what exactly is gained by paying a premium for a tour head?

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#36 tobybear

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:11 AM

I use a digital lie loft machine where I work for both irons and another one for woods,  

Some drivers like the new Titleist 913's come in very good when measured but almost all pings are higher in loft by no less than a degree.

The one thing I do is to measure the actual loft with the face angle at true 0.

This has worked great when fitting people and comparing heads that are used in demo vs. what is available in stock
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#37 Prog8r

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:48 AM

WOW, this really has me thinking about this stuff now.  How do they get out of the shops that far off?

#38 Prog8r

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

Do you guys know if the irons are off in retail as well?

Edited by Prog8r, 16 December 2012 - 05:08 PM.


#39 tobybear

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

It is always worth it to get the lies and lofts check when you purchase a set of irons regardless of if they were ordered custom or bought off the rack

Edited by tobybear, 16 December 2012 - 07:28 PM.

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#40 Prog8r

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

Thanks.  I usually get them adjusted about every 7 months anyway, but I have never bought a set and had them set.


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#41 Golfer_LD

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:32 PM

I have found that the driver heads I have gotten from quality component companies have been much closer to the correct loft (within the +/- 1) while with some OEM heads I have seen some as far off as 3 degrees.  Buddy of mine was convinced he needed a 8.5* because he was hitting his 9.5* Burner high.  Turns out the Burner was actually 11.5* and he is now happily playing a true 10.5* that I built him.

FYI, the driver I built had the same shaft (Aldila NV 65), playing length (44.75) and SW

Edited by Golfer_LD, 17 December 2012 - 02:24 PM.





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