40 replies to this topic

[sunnyus]

Currently I'm playing the TM superdeep tour issue 10.5 loft.
I don't know its real loft, but should be 10.x or 11.x since it's the tour issue.

I'm planing to buy a Cally RAZR FIT TA.
Since it's an retail product, real loft will be 1-2 degree higher than marked. right ?
How far is the retail driver off from the real loft ?
If it is way far, I'd like to pick 9.5. If it's close, 10.5 will be fine.
Any opinion ?
Thanks

[sblack5]

Usually a 1 degree tolerance up or down

[NRJyzr]

sblack5, on 13 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Usually a 1 degree tolerance up or down

That's the theory, but for years, the practical application of that tolerance has been -0/+3.  If not more.  OEMs have been selling drivers this way for years, because the average golf public won't buy what they really need.

Which kind of sucks for those of us who will buy what we need.

I'm not sure how prevalent this practice still is, but common sense tells me it's still going on to some degree....

[Kadin 25]

I have had some as much as 3*. Always best to have em checked, most pro shops will check it for you if you ask nicely.  

[sunnyus]

Kadin 25, on 13 November 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I have had some as much as 3*. Always best to have em checked, most pro shops will check it for you if you ask nicely.  

Does Golfsmith do that ?

[sunnyus]

sblack5, on 13 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Usually a 1 degree tolerance up or down

Hm... I don't think so. 1 degree is tour issue model tolerance. It should be more than that.

[Howard Jones]

sunnyus, on 14 November 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

sblack5, on 13 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Usually a 1 degree tolerance up or down

Hm... I don't think so. 1 degree is tour issue model tolerance. It should be more than that.

You are right....The very best foundries can make it within +/- 1* but that does NOT represent the hole business.
If you really want it right, go custom brand like Wishon, and have them to hand pick a head with the loft, face and lie angle thats right for you, otherwise you would never know what you get.

I also deal with Krank & Swing Science, but only hand picked heads, and its not unusual to see more than 1* off on Krank.
The "worse" was a 10.5 * head with only 8.75 true loft, but as long as i know, its not an issue in my shop, but off the rack or standard OEM order is a shot in the dark or pure lotto if you will.

Its NOT usual for a shop to have a loft gauge for woods, so the option to have it measured is not common after the head left the distributor.

[Cwebb]

For what I've measured on my spec gauge, the bigger companies average 1-2* more for actual loft, than what is stated on their heads

[wilavic]

If you google- driver real loft real face angle specs you will see a golf to impress article about this very thing.Some of them are off by quit a bit.-

[Pepperturbo]

The 9.5* Ping G20 I just bought is actually 12*.  Its not going in the bag until I find the right shaft for it... if that's possible.

If we take into count, OEM companies believe average Joe golfer needs more, not less loft, it shouldn't be a surprise when 9.5 turns out to be 3* more.  My G15 9* was actually 9* when I bought it, figure that, and its still in the bag.

[Kadin 25]

sunnyus, on 14 November 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Kadin 25, on 13 November 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I have had some as much as 3*. Always best to have em checked, most pro shops will check it for you if you ask nicely.  

Does Golfsmith do that ?

I'm not sure, I don't have one near me.

[ERdiesel]

I believe that you can custom order clubs from Ping with a specific loft that's been digitally measure..........for a fee.  I don't believe any other OEMs allow you an option to guarantee a specific loft.

[Facetious]

After reading this I went into my shop this morning and spec'd out a few heads and got some interesting results.

Razr fit 8.5 in square position. 9.2 loft 1 degree open.

Anser 9.5 in square position. 13.5 loft .5 degree closed.

Titleist 913d2 12 degree in square position. 12 loft .5 open.

First off I was more surprised that the 913 was right on spec than I was that the Anser was that far off. I know results will vary not only within manufacturers from head to head, but from vendor to vendor as well, so if you can get the head you are buying measured that would probably be the best option you have.

On a side note I have not measured a Ping head ever in the 15 years of building clubs that has been within 1 degree of what was printed on the head.

[MattTitleist]

Depends on the OEM, ping for the most part are a few degrees higher than stated on average unless you get them digitally lofted and even then if you order a Ping driver digitally lofted to 10.5* the actual one you get may say 8* on it

Taylormade from what I've seen is all over the map
Adams tend to be a little higher than stated
Callaway tend to be slightly higher than stated but not much
Titleist 910 seem to be very close to spec with a little edge to higher from what I've seen

Hard to say who is the best in the industry, if you remember the old Ping Tec driver had the effective trajectory loft on the driver they tended to be 1.5* higher than the stated.

This is one reason people find a club works during a fitting but its not the same when they get their ordered one. The other is the shaft.....wait that's the whole club.  Go figure.

Going to go measure my 913 will report back

[MattTitleist]

Ok so the 3 recent Titleist drivers I have had are as follows:

910D3 8.5 Retail Head Actual Loft: between 9-9.25

910D3 7.5 Tour Serial Number and COR Tested Actual Loft: 7.5

913D3 7.5 Retail Head Actual Loft: between 7.5-7.75

This is the best reading I can get with the jig and manual measurement device I have at home. Although I have used proper measuring devices in the past for other measurement without spending a few hundred$$ there is no need to have this for personal use.

[enduro]

The few times I've even bothered measuring driver lofts the Callaway were close to stated loft,  Pings were among the worst -  usually understated  at least 1.5 degree. I just bought a 9 degree  Ping G15 that  I'm sure has more loft than my  Callaway DET 10.5 driver.  But, I hit the Ping great, so it makes no difference to me what the actual loft is .

It might be worth it to get the TM SD head measured and try to get a similar measured loft in the Fit. Any other way will just be a crapshoot.

[Sean2]

I think it depends on the manufacturer. Geek golf is pretty much spot on.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Enduro sums it up, does the club WORK 4 YOU.

My Super Tri 9.5 is hi but i like it. Just paid for a 910 D3 9.5, Regular Kai'Li
so will see how it goes after spine align etc.
Golf WRX has taught me so much since last xmas;s Callaway Diablo Octane tour,
a 10.5 that was 11.7 and the PX 5.0 was a bit soft and hi.
Cheers.

[Mikepaul]

My Nike VR Tour 9.5 was 11.1 (measured)

My current 910D3 9.5 is 9.4 (measured)

[nova6868]

They are way off, and hopefully the new heads like Nike Covert will solve this issue forever. You can dial it in to whatever loft you desire at the time, no need to switch heads. I just hope they have similar performance when compared to glued heads. I guess we will see.

I've had PING drivers all over the place, a G15 9 that was actually 10.5. And a G15 10.5 that was like 12.5.

And an i20 10.5 that is surprisingly only 11.

[NRJyzr]

Sean2, on 15 November 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

I think it depends on the manufacturer. Geek golf is pretty much spot on.

Loft inflation was primarily an OEM thing; the component companies generally stayed within the ±1° tolerance.

[NRJyzr]

Facetious, on 14 November 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

After reading this I went into my shop this morning and spec'd out a few heads and got some interesting results.

Razr fit 8.5 in square position. 9.2 loft 1 degree open.

Quite ironic.  Callaway were the pioneers in "loft inflation."

[riot1013]

I just measure 5 drivers (3 Nikes and 2 Adams) from the set up position.  All were within .5* of their marked loft with the exception of the oldest driver (9015D) in the test which was about 1.5* below its marked loft.  I have some other older drivers that I may check just to see if that is an older trend that hopefully is subsiding.

[enduro]

NRJyzr, on 15 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Sean2, on 15 November 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

I think it depends on the manufacturer. Geek golf is pretty much spot on.

Loft inflation was primarily an OEM thing; the component companies generally stayed within the ±1° tolerance.

The worst drivers  I've ever tried ,  tolerance wise,  have been components.  The only difference is some component makers like Wishon or Geek might pick out a head in a specific  loft if asked.

[TomWishon]

sunnyus, on 13 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Currently I'm playing the TM superdeep tour issue 10.5 loft.
I don't know its real loft, but should be 10.x or 11.x since it's the tour issue.

I'm planing to buy a Cally RAZR FIT TA.
Since it's an retail product, real loft will be 1-2 degree higher than marked. right ?
How far is the retail driver off from the real loft ?
If it is way far, I'd like to pick 9.5. If it's close, 10.5 will be fine.
Any opinion ?
Thanks

Sorry to tell you this, but this is one area in golf club sales that is really, I mean REALLY getting to be messed up.   As Pepperturbo said, there are some companies who are INTENTIONALLY making the loft of some of their models to be higher than what is printed on the head.  There is no way to know what companies do this, and on which of their head models they do this, unless you get someone who is competent at woodhead loft measurement using a proper clubhead specs measurement gauge to measure the loft.

In addition, every company's heads are subject to a normal +/-1 deg tolerance for loft in the production of their heads.

And even with a head specs measurement gauge, it is darn hard to get accurate loft measurements on driver heads these days and takes someone who has been properly trained on how to fixture the head in the specs gauge to do it right.   Most of today's driver heads are designed so the sole has a little bit of radius from face to back.  Old days all woodheads only had radius from toe to heel while face to back was dead flat.  Those heads were easy to fixture in a gauge for accurate loft reading.

But now with all these drivers having some amount of face to back radius, it is darn difficult to know precisely how to set up the head in the specs gauge to get a correct loft reading.  This is also one of several reasons why I stick with the same head production factories to manufacture my woodhead designs - so they are totally in synch with me on how I define the fixturing of a woodhead in the specs gauge to get the right loft reading.   Were I to have to switch head making factories for my production, job one is always to teach them how I measure woodhead loft on woodheads with a face to back sole radius so we are all on the same page.

This is yet another good reason to be working with an experienced clubmaker to get your sticks rather than to buy in a golf store off the rack.  

TOM

[Pepperturbo]

TomWishon, on 16 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

sunnyus, on 13 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Currently I'm playing the TM superdeep tour issue 10.5 loft.
I don't know its real loft, but should be 10.x or 11.x since it's the tour issue.

I'm planing to buy a Cally RAZR FIT TA.
Since it's an retail product, real loft will be 1-2 degree higher than marked. right ?
How far is the retail driver off from the real loft ?
If it is way far, I'd like to pick 9.5. If it's close, 10.5 will be fine.
Any opinion ?
Thanks

Sorry to tell you this, but this is one area in golf club sales that is really, I mean REALLY getting to be messed up.   As Pepperturbo said, there are some companies who are INTENTIONALLY making the loft of some of their models to be higher than what is printed on the head.  There is no way to know what companies do this, and on which of their head models they do this, unless you get someone who is competent at woodhead loft measurement using a proper clubhead specs measurement gauge to measure the loft.

In addition, every company's heads are subject to a normal +/-1 deg tolerance for loft in the production of their heads.

And even with a head specs measurement gauge, it is darn hard to get accurate loft measurements on driver heads these days and takes someone who has been properly trained on how to fixture the head in the specs gauge to do it right.   Most of today's driver heads are designed so the sole has a little bit of radius from face to back.  Old days all woodheads only had radius from toe to heel while face to back was dead flat.  Those heads were easy to fixture in a gauge for accurate loft reading.

But now with all these drivers having some amount of face to back radius, it is darn difficult to know precisely how to set up the head in the specs gauge to get a correct loft reading.  This is also one of several reasons why I stick with the same head production factories to manufacture my woodhead designs - so they are totally in synch with me on how I define the fixturing of a woodhead in the specs gauge to get the right loft reading.   Were I to have to switch head making factories for my production, job one is always to teach them how I measure woodhead loft on woodheads with a face to back sole radius so we are all on the same page.

This is yet another good reason to be working with an experienced clubmaker to get your sticks rather than to buy in a golf store off the rack.  

TOM

I liked the way you explained that Tom... +1

[Sean2]

If you get properly fit, does it really matter what it says on the head?

For example, depending on the shoe manufacturer I wear anything from an 11 to a 12.5. I don't care what the size says, as long as the shoe fits.

[wetdogsmell]

But if you find a pair of shoes that you like in size 11 you should be able to be confident that you can go online and get another pair just like it and have the same fit.

Unless you buy the exact club that you demo it sounds like you are kind of screwed. This is pushing me towards buying/selling random used drivers instead of spending time/money on a fitting. But i'm just a weekend joker!

[Pepperturbo]

wetdogsmell, on 16 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

But if you find a pair of shoes that you like in size 11 you should be able to be confident that you can go online and get another pair just like it and have the same fit.

Unless you buy the exact club that you demo it sounds like you are kind of screwed. This is pushing me towards buying/selling random used drivers instead of spending time/money on a fitting. But i'm just a weekend joker!

I disagree.  Its always a crap shoot, especially so online.  Assuming it shouldn't be suggests a standard that doesn't exist... and probably shouldn't exist, least IMO.

There was a time when I thought equipment standards should exist.  But then I realized I wanted that out of selfishness and time constraints.  I didn't want to have to conduct due diligence before purchasing and didn't want to gamble.  Turns out, capitalism / supply & demand is in my blood.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 16 November 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[Sean2]

wetdogsmell, on 16 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

But if you find a pair of shoes that you like in size 11 you should be able to be confident that you can go online and get another pair just like it and have the same fit.

Unless you buy the exact club that you demo it sounds like you are kind of screwed. This is pushing me towards buying/selling random used drivers instead of spending time/money on a fitting. But i'm just a weekend joker!

That's a fair point.