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cheating in junior golf tournaments


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#1 SirHackAlot

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..


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#2 Llortamaisey

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

If they sign for a lower score, bring it to the attention of a rules official before the kid leaves the predetermined scoring area.

#3 theboypinoy

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

I'm surprised they don't have a scorer for the group. Many junior tours do have scorers for the lower age groups.



At least from what I've seen.

Edited by theboypinoy, 13 November 2012 - 04:12 PM.


#4 MadGolfer76

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

You handle it like every other incident of cheating - report it. Seeing as how they are 9 years old, I wouldn't necessarily treat it with the same scorn I would if they had been 16 or 17, although I might have a word with the parents if the scorers don't opt to do so, just to keep a friendly face on the whole thing.

What I wouldn't have done is leave every clue to whom it might have been all over an nationally-read golf forum. Cheating doesn't speak well for the group in question, but branding a 9 year old a "cheater" to hundreds of people isn't exactly appropriate either. It might be accurate in this instance, but that is a too early for a kid to be carrying around that kind of rep over 1 incident.
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#5 Hrocks

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:45 PM

I'm really surprised to learn of that kind of behavior coming from juniors that have a solid background on any of the USKG Tours.  My son has played on their tours for seven years, and we have never seen any attempts at cheating.  There have been few even questionable actions over that time frame that were largely out of ignorance, but again they were so few and far between and at the very youngest of age groups (5 yrs) it hardly bears mention.  The juniors at the USKG events are required to have a caddy up until I believe the age of eight, but most do until about the age of twelve.  Both the player and caddy must sign and agree to abide by the USKG rules and regulations. (they include things like no excessive coaching, agree to play by the USGA rules etc.)  In a threesome, the kids would all just pass their scorecards to the right and keep that player's scores.  Typically in the under 12 yr age groups the caddies and/or a parent would assist in the scoring.
Golf is the only self policing sport, and as I've told my guy since he started playing at 3.5 years old (competitive golf since five) that this is a gentleman's game and you've got to do the right thing, even if nobody is watching.  IMO, breach of conduct which includes cheating must be challenged and reported discretely to the proper official, regardless of the Tour involved.

Edited by Hrocks, 13 November 2012 - 05:47 PM.


#6 SirHackAlot

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 13 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

You handle it like every other incident of cheating - report it. Seeing as how they are 9 years old, I wouldn't necessarily treat it with the same scorn I would if they had been 16 or 17, although I might have a word with the parents if the scorers don't opt to do so, just to keep a friendly face on the whole thing.

What I wouldn't have done is leave every clue to whom it might have been all over an nationally-read golf forum. Cheating doesn't speak well for the group in question, but branding a 9 year old a "cheater" to hundreds of people isn't exactly appropriate either. It might be accurate in this instance, but that is a too early for a kid to be carrying around that kind of rep over 1 incident.

i understand some ppl would rather protect the cheater than protect the field..but not in my case..as a matter of fact the reason i posted on this website is because he plays nationally and this isnt just a local issue

whether they are 9 or 17 doesnt matter to me, these tournaments contain d1/d2/d3 commits, so they are very serious

#7 wobgon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:14 PM

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 13 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

You handle it like every other incident of cheating - report it. Seeing as how they are 9 years old, I wouldn't necessarily treat it with the same scorn I would if they had been 16 or 17, although I might have a word with the parents if the scorers don't opt to do so, just to keep a friendly face on the whole thing.

What I wouldn't have done is leave every clue to whom it might have been all over an nationally-read golf forum. Cheating doesn't speak well for the group in question, but branding a 9 year old a "cheater" to hundreds of people isn't exactly appropriate either. It might be accurate in this instance, but that is a too early for a kid to be carrying around that kind of rep over 1 incident.

i understand some ppl would rather protect the cheater than protect the field..but not in my case..as a matter of fact the reason i posted on this website is because he plays nationally and this isnt just a local issue

whether they are 9 or 17 doesnt matter to me, these tournaments contain d1/d2/d3 commits, so they are very serious
So why did you ask the question?

#8 nitram

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:52 AM

Half the battle when teaching children about right and wrong or doing the right thing is instilling the confidence in them to do something about it. In this case, report it to dad (as he obviously did) and follow through with reporting it to a tournament official. Any other action or lack thereof, is collaboration.
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#9 Noles

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:03 AM

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

If it was a threesome, as you stated above, then didn't your son have one of the other two boys scorecards?  He should immediately question the boy's score that he was keeping and go through the hole shot-by-shot until they agree on the score.

#10 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:22 AM

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

That can't happen in a threesome, your son had one of their cards.


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#11 MadGolfer76

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 13 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

You handle it like every other incident of cheating - report it. Seeing as how they are 9 years old, I wouldn't necessarily treat it with the same scorn I would if they had been 16 or 17, although I might have a word with the parents if the scorers don't opt to do so, just to keep a friendly face on the whole thing.

What I wouldn't have done is leave every clue to whom it might have been all over an nationally-read golf forum. Cheating doesn't speak well for the group in question, but branding a 9 year old a "cheater" to hundreds of people isn't exactly appropriate either. It might be accurate in this instance, but that is a too early for a kid to be carrying around that kind of rep over 1 incident.

i understand some ppl would rather protect the cheater than protect the field..but not in my case..as a matter of fact the reason i posted on this website is because he plays nationally and this isnt just a local issue

whether they are 9 or 17 doesnt matter to me, these tournaments contain d1/d2/d3 commits, so they are very serious

That is just being silly. There is no part of what I said that reads as "protecting a cheater." My very first statement was: "You report it." I have even bolded it for you if you overlooked it.

I am sorry, but what you have done here is tasteless, whether you care to admit it or not. If these tournaments are so very important, you also don't want to create a reputation for YOUR kid as carrying around a "crazy" parent who would rather flame away online about the behavior of two nine year olds than address the situation personally like any other mature adult would. What you have done here indirectly reflects upon your child as well as you, especially if someone were to put two and two together.

You are a parent - set a better example than this.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 14 November 2012 - 11:05 AM.

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#12 jhscott1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

As it is worded it appears this was a foursome

#13 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:17 AM

View Postjhscott1, on 14 November 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

As it is worded it appears this was a foursome

I was going by his first sentence.

Also, when paired with someone, it has been my junior golf tournament experience that the scorer(s) require everyone from that group to be present when turning in their scorecards.

Edited by KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, 14 November 2012 - 11:28 AM.


#14 OptionlessM

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

top in the nation for 9 year olds LOL

#15 Jc0

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:58 PM

View PostKILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 14 November 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

View Postjhscott1, on 14 November 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

View PostSirHackAlot, on 13 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

my son was recently paired with two 9 year old boys, who's parents were quick to point out that his son was the top junior in the nation for his age group...(i was annoyed..i'll admit), this boy's name is all over internet for US Kids Championship, JTNC as having scored well in past tournaments

midway through the round, this top junior hits his second shot in a hazard (par 4) chunks 3 shots in a row to make it to the green, makes a great two putt to save his 7...

on the tee for the next hole, my boy is addressing his ball and overhears the two nine year old's colluding to give each other bogeys (the both visited the hazard on said hole) for the hole...

at the scorer's desk, both nine year olds are lagging behind and report to the scorers table after my son and playing partner have gone...my son had written notes on his card to remind himself to question this incident....

what should be done if anything in a situation like this? we are pretty new to the Junior Tour of Northern California and were wondering how situations like this are handled..

As it is worded it appears this was a foursome

I was going by his first sentence.

Also, when paired with someone, it has been my junior golf tournament experience that the scorer(s) require everyone from that group to be present when turning in their scorecards.

I agree, this seems off.  In every junior event I played all have to present at the scorers table to turn in cards.  You also have to pass your cards so that you are not keeping score for the person who is keeping your score.  You should look into how things are run because someone isn't doing something right somewhere.


#16 generaljhc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:32 PM

Quote

What I wouldn't have done is leave every clue to whom it might have been all over an nationally-read golf forum. Cheating doesn't speak well for the group in question, but branding a 9 year old a "cheater" to hundreds of people isn't exactly appropriate either. It might be accurate in this instance, but that is a too early for a kid to be carrying around that kind of rep over 1 incident.

I agree he is 9 years old and outing him like this is inappropriate. Issue should have been handled on the tee box, "I had you at 7, is that correct" or at the scorers table. But calling the 9 YEAR OLD BOY out on the internet is a little much. If the original poster wants to only draw attention to cheating at a national level, simply mentioning it occurred at a national event would have sufficed. If the OP wants to know how to handle cheating, describe situation and ask. This should have been handled at the tournament. Only general questions should have been asked on this forum.

Edited by generaljhc, 20 November 2012 - 04:36 PM.


#17 jollysammy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:21 PM

the confusing part of this post is that you mention US Kids, but the tournament in question seems to be on the Junior Tour.  We play in Northern California, my son is a 12year old.  US Kids plays threesomes and all scorecards are compared at the scorer's table with all 3 golfers present.  Since you refer to a 4some, that's how I finally determined you were talking about the Junior Tour.  First off, at 9, they're kids, and kids can do some pretty stupid things, sooner or later, a cheater will not be able to justify his score, so in the end they won't benefit when they resort to this.

Your son should get used to scoring everyone on his scorecard during the round.  In all junior tournaments we play, whether I caddy or my son scores where parents aren't allowed to caddy, we keep the score for every golfer in the threesome or foursome, even to the point of clarifying after each hole is done.  Then when you are at the scorer's table, disputes can then be addressed with all golfers present.  That is the time when the notes from your son would be used for clarification before the scores are posted.

As the boys get older, the cheaters will be flushed out, because a game based on cheating will never last long.  You can always tell the golfers with ability on the course or on the range.  I also know that when you interact with some of the parents, some can be very reasonable and good people, some can be real jerks, you get all types.  Confronting a parent whose child may be cheating can be like lighting a match in a gas tank, not much good can come out of it.

I wouldn't worry about college scholarships based on a 9 year olds performance.  Just tell your son to not worry about something he can't control, the behaviour of others, and just concentrate on improving his game.  In the end, the best golfers will be recognized and no amount of cheap made in China hardware won will hide that fact.

#18 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:39 PM

View Postjollysammy, on 28 November 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

the confusing part of this post is that you mention US Kids, but the tournament in question seems to be on the Junior Tour.  We play in Northern California, my son is a 12year old.  US Kids plays threesomes and all scorecards are compared at the scorer's table with all 3 golfers present.  Since you refer to a 4some, that's how I finally determined you were talking about the Junior Tour.  First off, at 9, they're kids, and kids can do some pretty stupid things, sooner or later, a cheater will not be able to justify his score, so in the end they won't benefit when they resort to this.

Your son should get used to scoring everyone on his scorecard during the round.  In all junior tournaments we play, whether I caddy or my son scores where parents aren't allowed to caddy, we keep the score for every golfer in the threesome or foursome, even to the point of clarifying after each hole is done.  Then when you are at the scorer's table, disputes can then be addressed with all golfers present.  That is the time when the notes from your son would be used for clarification before the scores are posted.

As the boys get older, the cheaters will be flushed out, because a game based on cheating will never last long.  You can always tell the golfers with ability on the course or on the range.  I also know that when you interact with some of the parents, some can be very reasonable and good people, some can be real jerks, you get all types.  Confronting a parent whose child may be cheating can be like lighting a match in a gas tank, not much good can come out of it.

I wouldn't worry about college scholarships based on a 9 year olds performance.  Just tell your son to not worry about something he can't control, the behaviour of others, and just concentrate on improving his game.  In the end, the best golfers will be recognized and no amount of cheap made in China hardware won will hide that fact.

A parent has no business at the scorers table discussing scores or rulings. Your scorecard is irrelevant, notes too. Let your son do these things on his own, you can talk with him afterwards if he didn't handle things to your liking. The scorers table is for players and officials only.

#19 jollysammy

jollysammy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:14 PM

View PostKILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 28 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

View Postjollysammy, on 28 November 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

the confusing part of this post is that you mention US Kids, but the tournament in question seems to be on the Junior Tour.  We play in Northern California, my son is a 12year old.  US Kids plays threesomes and all scorecards are compared at the scorer's table with all 3 golfers present.  Since you refer to a 4some, that's how I finally determined you were talking about the Junior Tour.  First off, at 9, they're kids, and kids can do some pretty stupid things, sooner or later, a cheater will not be able to justify his score, so in the end they won't benefit when they resort to this.

Your son should get used to scoring everyone on his scorecard during the round.  In all junior tournaments we play, whether I caddy or my son scores where parents aren't allowed to caddy, we keep the score for every golfer in the threesome or foursome, even to the point of clarifying after each hole is done.  Then when you are at the scorer's table, disputes can then be addressed with all golfers present.  That is the time when the notes from your son would be used for clarification before the scores are posted.

As the boys get older, the cheaters will be flushed out, because a game based on cheating will never last long.  You can always tell the golfers with ability on the course or on the range.  I also know that when you interact with some of the parents, some can be very reasonable and good people, some can be real jerks, you get all types.  Confronting a parent whose child may be cheating can be like lighting a match in a gas tank, not much good can come out of it.

I wouldn't worry about college scholarships based on a 9 year olds performance.  Just tell your son to not worry about something he can't control, the behaviour of others, and just concentrate on improving his game.  In the end, the best golfers will be recognized and no amount of cheap made in China hardware won will hide that fact.

A parent has no business at the scorers table discussing scores or rulings. Your scorecard is irrelevant, notes too. Let your son do these things on his own, you can talk with him afterwards if he didn't handle things to your liking. The scorers table is for players and officials only.

I think you misunderstood me, I as a parent do not get involved at the scorer's table, the kids that are playing do.  But all the kids that play and play frequently keep track of all the scores in their group.  In US Kids, parents are allowed to caddy and help fill out the scorecard, but its the kids that present the card and clarify at the table.  What didn't seem right with the OP comment was that the entire foursome didn't go over the scores at the scoring table, which seemed unusual.




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