49 replies to this topic

[tofur99]

yeah lie angle makes a huge difference.  If you want to see how big have 3 pw's, 7 irons, and 5 irons with you at the range.  One bent 2 degrees upright, another 2 flat, and another 6 flat.  I can hit all of them but the carnage the 2 degree upright clubs inflict on my swing is shocking.  I start hitting the ball all over the place, although all the years of playing upright clubs has left me able to hit them pretty well every once in awhile.  The 6 flat ones go straightest but are a little too flat (I'm 6'3), the 2 flat guys tend to pull draw on me.  I much prefer a weak fade as a miss for obvious reasons.

Edited by tofur99, 14 November 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

xabia, on 13 November 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'm scuffling through left misses with my irons since I switched to CMB's and I always feel like my toe is up and heel is digging into the ground as well.

How do you know what is standard lie angle for industry? for instnace CMB PW is 63.5 and an AP2 is 64*

If I wanted to bend them flat it would be based off of what standard?

Ironically, there isn't a 'standard'. Most OEM's are trending toward more upright lie angles to counteract the typicall mis- banana slice. Base the lie off the impact position on the sole with lie tape on your club. I think it's 1* flattened for every 1/8" toward the heel away from the center line of the sole, and vice versa.

[golfsavvy]

Lie is one possible reason the ball is going left.  Yes, a good player can manipulate any club to hit it relatively straight, but why would he/she want to?  Just proves he/she can manipulate.

Competent lie adjustments can be made both indoors and outdoors, and if electronics are used, I would still check them outdoors.  Manufacturer progression of the lies through a set may not match up with a player's methods, so each club should be tested individually -- not only to check the progression but to check the manufacturer.

Lies are one major spec that should be set 'neutral' so with the stock swing the club is neutralized at impact.  Otherwise, based on player movements, practically any other spec on the club can influence the ball to the left or right.  Lies are just one of at least 8 specs that influence direction.

[BogeyLJA]

All other things being equal, how much does 1* affect direction, with lets say the average 8 iron....?

[crapula]

Wouldn't raising the hands about a half an inch indirectly change the lie angle a couple of degrees?

Low hands, toe up. High hands, toe down. Experiment with that and you will know for sure if the "big fat lie" angle is the issue. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I've gone from 4* flat to 4* upright and I still hit any type of shot, it never made a difference, just gimme the damn club and lets play golf.


If you change your lie angle, you will never be able to hit a draw again.

Edited by crapula, 15 November 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[nbg352]

crapula, on 15 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wouldn't raising the hands about a half an inch indirectly change the lie angle a couple of degrees?

Low hands, toe up. High hands, toe down. Experiment with that and you will know for sure if the "big fat lie" angle is the issue. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I've gone from 4* flat to 4* upright and I still hit any type of shot, it never made a difference, just gimme the damn club and lets play golf.


If you change your lie angle, you will never be able to hit a draw again.

Every iron in my bag is 58*. I hit nothing but draws. But I no longer pull it. What doesn't seem to work for you actually works for most of the golfers who have a fitting which shows an adjustment is necessary.
While raising or lowering your hands at address takes care of the club position at address, it does nothing for the club head when it returns to it's natural position at impact. A person with  a toe up position at address may actually return the clubhead to the ball in a toe down position and vice versa. What you see at address is often mimicked at impact, but not always.

[crapula]

nbg352, on 15 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

crapula, on 15 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wouldn't raising the hands about a half an inch indirectly change the lie angle a couple of degrees?

Low hands, toe up. High hands, toe down. Experiment with that and you will know for sure if the "big fat lie" angle is the issue. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I've gone from 4* flat to 4* upright and I still hit any type of shot, it never made a difference, just gimme the damn club and lets play golf.


If you change your lie angle, you will never be able to hit a draw again.

Every iron in my bag is 58*. I hit nothing but draws. But I no longer pull it. What doesn't seem to work for you actually works for most of the golfers who have a fitting which shows an adjustment is necessary.
While raising or lowering your hands at address takes care of the club position at address, it does nothing for the club head when it returns to it's natural position at impact. A person with  a toe up position at address may actually return the clubhead to the ball in a toe down position and vice versa. What you see at address is often mimicked at impact, but not always.

If every iron in your bag is 58*, then lie angle doesn't matter for you either, but I don't think that's what you mean, right? That's insanely confusing, you are varying degrees of flat throughout your clubs which goes against everything we are told about lie angles.

Also, natural position at impact? What? Change your setup and change impact, change anything and change impact. The club head has no natural position at impact, it only does what you make it do and if changing hand position at address causes you to make contact differently that will tell you something about lie angle. But mostly, it will tell you that lie angle can be beaten by the golfer.

Wait, I have a lie with the ball below my feet 5 degrees, better get the wrench and change my lie angle right quick. Crap, may have opened up another can of worms. If the ball below your feet "promotes a fade" then why does a lie angle with the heel hitting first promote a draw? And if the answer is swing path... that's just the damn answer to everything.

Edited by crapula, 15 November 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[nbg352]

crapula, on 15 November 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

nbg352, on 15 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

crapula, on 15 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wouldn't raising the hands about a half an inch indirectly change the lie angle a couple of degrees?

Low hands, toe up. High hands, toe down. Experiment with that and you will know for sure if the "big fat lie" angle is the issue. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I've gone from 4* flat to 4* upright and I still hit any type of shot, it never made a difference, just gimme the damn club and lets play golf.


If you change your lie angle, you will never be able to hit a draw again.

Every iron in my bag is 58*. I hit nothing but draws. But I no longer pull it. What doesn't seem to work for you actually works for most of the golfers who have a fitting which shows an adjustment is necessary.
While raising or lowering your hands at address takes care of the club position at address, it does nothing for the club head when it returns to it's natural position at impact. A person with  a toe up position at address may actually return the clubhead to the ball in a toe down position and vice versa. What you see at address is often mimicked at impact, but not always.

If every iron in your bag is 58*, then lie angle doesn't matter for you either, but I don't think that's what you mean, right? That's insanely confusing, you are varying degrees of flat throughout your clubs which goes against everything we are told about lie angles.

Not at all. Most people get their lies done 1 or 2* across the board. Yet most toe up people would probably benefit more from having their clubs bent less in the long irons because they are already the flattest iron in the bag  and considerably more in the short irons, which are the most upright and will demonstrate the incrrect lie more at impact.
My clubs are 2* flat in the 3iron and 6* flat in my wedges. And I assure you, lie angle matters very much to me, which is why my irons are set as they are.. At 58* (driver and Fairway woods are also 58*, but not bent.) Every club in my bag feels the same to me at set up.I'd say that is a good thing.
When I check lie angles for someone, I check each club and set each club seperately. I do not bend all clubs from  a one club setup. You'd be amazed at the results, sometimes.

[nbg352]

I should add something you may find interesting. I have a set of Hogan Apex irons that I was fitted for in the '80's.
The fitter bent each club the amount the lie board suggested. I did not know the lie angle, I only knew that whatever he did worked and worked well.
The last set of clubs I bought, Callaway Razr X's, I fit and bent myself. I was pretty surprised to see that I was bending everything to 58* and thought I'd done something wrong 'cause it didn't seem at all right.
So, I decided to check the lies on my Hogan's and just adjust the Razr's to the same lie.
Turns out, I did not have to make a single adjustment. Every Hogan Iron from the 1 to the sand iron was and is 58*
Yep, lie angle is everything......

[crapula]

nbg352, on 15 November 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I should add something you may find interesting. I have a set of Hogan Apex irons that I was fitted for in the '80's.
The fitter bent each club the amount the lie board suggested. I did not know the lie angle, I only knew that whatever he did worked and worked well.
The last set of clubs I bought, Callaway Razr X's, I fit and bent myself. I was pretty surprised to see that I was bending everything to 58* and thought I'd done something wrong 'cause it didn't seem at all right.
So, I decided to check the lies on my Hogan's and just adjust the Razr's to the same lie.
Turns out, I did not have to make a single adjustment. Every Hogan Iron from the 1 to the sand iron was and is 58*
Yep, lie angle is everything......

Interesting, never heard of anyone using the same angle on every club.

[golfsavvy]

BogeyLJA, on 15 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

All other things being equal, how much does 1* affect direction, with lets say the average 8 iron....?

An 8 iron struck with a 1 degree variance will be a minimum of 5.75 feet off line at 140 yards.  Varied spin rates affect the remainder of the directional loss.

[Cwebb]

nbg352, on 15 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

crapula, on 15 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wouldn't raising the hands about a half an inch indirectly change the lie angle a couple of degrees?

Low hands, toe up. High hands, toe down. Experiment with that and you will know for sure if the "big fat lie" angle is the issue. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I've gone from 4* flat to 4* upright and I still hit any type of shot, it never made a difference, just gimme the damn club and lets play golf.


If you change your lie angle, you will never be able to hit a draw again.

Every iron in my bag is 58*. I hit nothing but draws. But I no longer pull it. What doesn't seem to work for you actually works for most of the golfers who have a fitting which shows an adjustment is necessary.
While raising or lowering your hands at address takes care of the club position at address, it does nothing for the club head when it returns to it's natural position at impact. A person with  a toe up position at address may actually return the clubhead to the ball in a toe down position and vice versa. What you see at address is often mimicked at impact, but not always.

Are you using a single length set of clubs, where every club is the same exact length?  That's the only way this would make any sense

[nbg352]

Cwebb, on 16 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

nbg352, on 15 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

crapula, on 15 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wouldn't raising the hands about a half an inch indirectly change the lie angle a couple of degrees?

Low hands, toe up. High hands, toe down. Experiment with that and you will know for sure if the "big fat lie" angle is the issue. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I've gone from 4* flat to 4* upright and I still hit any type of shot, it never made a difference, just gimme the damn club and lets play golf.


If you change your lie angle, you will never be able to hit a draw again.

Every iron in my bag is 58*. I hit nothing but draws. But I no longer pull it. What doesn't seem to work for you actually works for most of the golfers who have a fitting which shows an adjustment is necessary.
While raising or lowering your hands at address takes care of the club position at address, it does nothing for the club head when it returns to it's natural position at impact. A person with  a toe up position at address may actually return the clubhead to the ball in a toe down position and vice versa. What you see at address is often mimicked at impact, but not always.

Are you using a single length set of clubs, where every club is the same exact length?  That's the only way this would make any sense

Nope, they're all standard length. Sorry if it doesn't make sense to you. May I ask you why it doesn't make sense to you? It works well for me.

Edited by nbg352, 16 November 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[MizzyMan]

If your clubs are standard length, say from 35" for your PW and 39.5" for your 1-iron, and they all have the same lie, you are either really manipulating your swing for each club or something is way off. It's simple geometry. Your hands are coming in really low on your wedge and really high on your 1-iron for you to be able to hit reasonably straight shots with these. Whatever works!

[nbg352]

Man, what is it with you guys, anyway?
There is no science here at all. I do not manipulate anything to compensate for the lie of my clubs. I simply swing and hit. Do you not think I would notice something funny in a set of Hogan Apex irons if the lies were wrong for me?
I fit a lot of guys for lie. I fit them one club at a time. Rarely are they ever the same lie change through the set. Rather there is quite often a difference, iron to iron. Especially between long and short irons.
In my example, my clubs range from 2* flat in the long irons to 6* flat in the wedges. It is extreme, but it is also progressive.
I don't get what you think is so strange....

[MizzyMan]

nbg352, on 16 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Man, what is it with you guys, anyway?
There is no science here at all. I do not manipulate anything to compensate for the lie of my clubs. I simply swing and hit. Do you not think I would notice something funny in a set of Hogan Apex irons if the lies were wrong for me?
I fit a lot of guys for lie. I fit them one club at a time. Rarely are they ever the same lie change through the set. Rather there is quite often a difference, iron to iron. Especially between long and short irons.
In my example, my clubs range from 2* flat in the long irons to 6* flat in the wedges. It is extreme, but it is also progressive.
I don't get what you think is so strange....

What's so strange is that you're the only one I've ever heard of that does this. So it's strange by definition. But, hey, if it works, whatever. Hit 'em straight!

[Bobalu]

I am lucky enough to have my own Mitchell loft/lie machine. I use an impact board and bend each iron for my personal optimal lie angle. A dynamic lie adjustment. The actual lie numbers don't matter. The longer the shaft, the more the shaft will flex down and result in toe droop at impact. My wedges are a little flatter, and the lesser lofted- longer irons a little more upright. I check divot quality and check ball flight, then forget about it. Works for me.

[nbg352]

Bobalu, on 16 November 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I am lucky enough to have my own Mitchell loft/lie machine. I use an impact board and bend each iron for my personal optimal lie angle. A dynamic lie adjustment. The actual lie numbers don't matter. The longer the shaft, the more the shaft will flex down and result in toe droop at impact. My wedges are a little flatter, and the lesser lofted- longer irons a little more upright. I check divot quality and check ball flight, then forget about it. Works for me.

That's the right way to do it. Ever checked the resulting lie angles to see what they are? I use Mitchell as well......I was trained by Mitchell.

[PuttingDoctor]

I'm surprise that so far nobody has addressed the OP's topic from a fundamental standpoint.

A look from down the line via a photo might reveal a setup with some flaws that contribute to the left direction.

Too often it's a mechanical issue in the swing as was mentioned by one poster regarding path.

At 5'9" if your sleeve length is a bit longer simply shortening the shaft will flatten the lie angle. And if you've got excess spine angle and hands tucked in tight this can also contribute to a toe up lie.

As stated the ball flight is straight to left we can likely eliminate a hanging toe / shut club face but I'd like to see the 9 o'clock position on the back swing too.

It's not always the clubs' fault when direction is the issue.

[golfsavvy]

No, it's not always the club's fault when direction is an issue, but making sure it's not the club's fault through fitting is important.  I don't find ngb's lie fit to be all that unusual.  Every club's lie should be checked and fit and re-checked dynamically to what the player does.  Bottom line is we weren't there during his testing and bending process, and we don't know either his 'standard' starting point or what his 'swing progression' is.  Some players begin changing their set-up around the 8-iron, some with wedges, some with lower irons.  The progression set by the manufacturer is a static 'suggestion'.  Not everyone 'fits' what the manufacturer suggests.