49 replies to this topic

[TheTortoise]

Hi guys, I was hoping to get some insight on a problem I've been having.

For reference, I'm not a very tall guy, maybe 5'9.

Recently, (after some swing changes) I've noticed that my balls start down the target line, but seem to just keep going left. The problem gets worse as I move from my driver to my short irons. I'm not losing too much distance, but If the wind is blowing certain directions it makes certain fairways and greens nearly impossible to hit.

After getting stiffer shafts, using a REALLY weak grip, and cupping at the top of the swing I still can't seem to stop the draw/hook, even with a wedge.

Seeing as all this has failed, has anyone heard of flattening lie angles to fight this type of ball-flight?

I don't have a club-fitter (other than Sports Authority) within 2-hours drive, so I was hoping to get an idea of whether or not this would be worth investigating or if anyone had success doing this.




Thanks in advance.

[GoogleMe]

Yes, if your lies are the problem it will solve alot.



My lies are 4* flat to avoid the left side of the golf course.
I was digging the heel of the club into the ground with every shot.
Get on a lie board and see what part of the sole enters the ground first.

1. Masking Tape or Electric Tape.
2. Plastic Board (Home Depot or Wal Mart)

Take a couple of swings and if the marks are towards the heel you need them flatter.


 iron_lie_comp.jpg   42.12K   9 downloads

Edited by GoogleMe, 13 November 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[TheTortoise]

GoogleMe, on 13 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

My lies are 4* flat to avoid the left side of the golf course.
I was digging the heel of the club into the ground with every shot.
Get on a lie board and see what part of the sole enters the ground first.

1. Masking Tape or Electric Tape.
2. Plastic Board (Home Depot or Wal Mart)

Take a couple of swings and if the marks are towards the heel you need them flatter.

Will do, I always feel that the heel is digging into the ground at address. I used to make a move where I lifted up to sole to club correctly and that led to a whole bunch of problems.

Thanks for the reply.

[MDP1555]

In general if your clubs are too upright for your swing they will promote a low hook if too flat a high fade. If your clubs are not fitted to you then yes it worth finding a fitter. Consider checking with some of the country clubs in your area for a clubmaker in your area and get recommendations. Even if you have to make a day tip it will be worth it for you in the long run. When you play with ill fitted clubs you tend to develop make up moves to react to the miss fit that may be bad for you in the long run. By all means get fitted.

[sonofagunn]

Agree with GoogleMe - make a homemade lie board and check the marks. Flatten until they're mostly even. However, if the ball is starting out on your target line, if nothing else changes but flatter lie angles, it will start off to the right of your target line.

[alf05d]

Does anyone know how easy/costly changing the lie angles in ur irons can be?   Is this like a 20 minute trip to my local golf shop or something that needs to be custom ordered?   Expensive?

[GoogleMe]

alf05d, on 13 November 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Does anyone know how easy/costly changing the lie angles in ur irons can be?   Is this like a 20 minute trip to my local golf shop or something that needs to be custom ordered?   Expensive?

Easy fix.
Golf Smith or Club Fitter.

$30 for your whole set.

[TheTortoise]

Thanks for the graphic and the replies. I'm definitely going to make the trip to Walmart later and check them.

[kellygreen]

TheTortoise, on 13 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Hi guys, I was hoping to get some insight on a problem I've been having.

For reference, I'm not a very tall guy, maybe 5'9.

Recently, (after some swing changes) I've noticed that my balls start down the target line, but seem to just keep going left. The problem gets worse as I move from my driver to my short irons. I'm not losing too much distance, but If the wind is blowing certain directions it makes certain fairways and greens nearly impossible to hit.

After getting stiffer shafts, using a REALLY weak grip, and cupping at the top of the swing I still can't seem to stop the draw/hook, even with a wedge.

Seeing as all this has failed, has anyone heard of flattening lie angles to fight this type of ball-flight?

I don't have a club-fitter (other than Sports Authority) within 2-hours drive, so I was hoping to get an idea of whether or not this would be worth investigating or if anyone had success doing this.




Thanks in advance.

Worth investigating.  You also might want to have someone take a look at your ball position.

[alf05d]

Thanks GoogleMe!   I struggle with the same thing as the OP.  I'm only 5'9" and all my clubs are standard L/L/L and my miss is definitely left no matter how much I try to hold the face open for a fade.  I literally have to mishit it on the heel if I want to hit a cut, very frustrating.

[TheTortoise]

alf05d, on 13 November 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Thanks GoogleMe!   I struggle with the same thing as the OP.  I'm only 5'9" and all my clubs are standard L/L/L and my miss is definitely left no matter how much I try to hold the face open for a fade.  I literally have to mishit it on the heel if I want to hit a cut, very frustrating.

My clubs are standard LLL too, and that almost describes what I'm experiencing perfectly (including catching the ball on the heel).

[HitEmTrue]

You can learn a lot by getting various single irons from ebay...do some experimenting.  Easy to find different lies for Ping because of their Dot system.

I'm 6'4" and moving from upright clubs to standard or flatter.

[xabia]

I'm scuffling through left misses with my irons since I switched to CMB's and I always feel like my toe is up and heel is digging into the ground as well.

How do you know what is standard lie angle for industry? for instnace CMB PW is 63.5 and an AP2 is 64*

If I wanted to bend them flat it would be based off of what standard?

[MDP1555]

alf05d, on 13 November 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Does anyone know how easy/costly changing the lie angles in ur irons can be?   Is this like a 20 minute trip to my local golf shop or something that needs to be custom ordered?   Expensive?

To do loft and lie adjustment $30-$45 per set you provide the specs or to standard MFG specs. Maybe higher if in some areas of the country. fitting loft and lie to your swing add $5-$15 per club depending on where you live

less than an hour to make the change on your irons, maybe 2 hours if you go through fitting process

Edited by MDP1555, 13 November 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[driverwedge3putt]

sure the lie angle might help but it's the swing.  I've played standard to up to 5 deg flat - as flat as I could bend them without breaking.  
Its the club path - an improper lie angle might make you miss a bit left maybe 5-8 yards max but those low or even high swooping hooks can't be fixed with lie angle - believe me I tried.

[nbg352]

xabia, on 13 November 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'm scuffling through left misses with my irons since I switched to CMB's and I always feel like my toe is up and heel is digging into the ground as well.

How do you know what is standard lie angle for industry? for instnace CMB PW is 63.5 and an AP2 is 64*

If I wanted to bend them flat it would be based off of what standard?

None. Getting  them fitted to your personal specifications precludes any industry standard (of which there is none)
Get on a lie board and bend the club until it sits level through impact. Whatever the lie starts at really doesn't matter. It's where it ends up that counts.

Edited by nbg352, 13 November 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[nbg352]

driverwedge3putt, on 13 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

sure the lie angle might help but it's the swing.  I've played standard to up to 5 deg flat - as flat as I could bend them without breaking.  
Its the club path - an improper lie angle might make you miss a bit left maybe 5-8 yards max but those low or even high swooping hooks can't be fixed with lie angle - believe me I tried.

An improper lie angle can affect shot direction up to 30 yds off target. Usually the miss is a straight pull or push. Since your lefts have never been corrected via lie angle adjustments, then yes, your issue is a swing problem that can only be corrected by taking lessons. But many golfers benefit greatly, often MUCH more than 8 yards with a simple lie angle adjustment.

[xabia]

nbg352, on 13 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

xabia, on 13 November 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'm scuffling through left misses with my irons since I switched to CMB's and I always feel like my toe is up and heel is digging into the ground as well.

How do you know what is standard lie angle for industry? for instnace CMB PW is 63.5 and an AP2 is 64*

If I wanted to bend them flat it would be based off of what standard?

None. Getting  them fitted to your personal specifications precludes any industry standard (of which there is none)
Get on a lie board and bend the club until it sits level through impact. Whatever the lie starts at really doesn't matter. It's where it ends up that counts.

Outstanding info thank you! I have played many different sets but this is the first time I have gone through this issue. I am a pretty short guy 5'7" and have short arms so I always assumed I would need my clubs flat but have never had it taken care of before.

[nbg352]

Anyone having lie angles changed please make sure that you do not get fitted for one club and have all clubs bent from the results of that one club, using mfg. specs as a guidline.
Do make sure that you are fit for each and every iron in your bag. Very often, the lie needs to be adjusted differently for long, mid and short irons. Bending off the results of hitting the 6 iron say, can mean a bad fit in the 3, 4 iron and 8 thru all wedges.Proper lie fitting and adjustment should take about 1 to 1 1/2 hour, beginning to end.

[fjk]

Sounds like a swing path issue.

May have lie angle issues but they don't seem to be fully or even mostly responsible for OP's problems.

[driverwedge3putt]

fjk, on 13 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Sounds like a swing path issue.

May have lie angle issues but they don't seem to be fully or even mostly responsible for OP's problems.

YEP I said that as well.
Another example - Im hitting my clubs towards the toe because they are a bit to flat to help combate the terrible hook spin.

[nbg352]

driverwedge3putt, on 13 November 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

fjk, on 13 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Sounds like a swing path issue.

May have lie angle issues but they don't seem to be fully or even mostly responsible for OP's problems.

YEP I said that as well.
Another example - Im hitting my clubs towards the toe because they are a bit to flat to help combate the terrible hook spin.

And that is a viable work around. I have set clubs a bit too flat to help minimize  a pull hook and I've done the opposite to try and eliminate the right side of the fairway for someone.
Main thing is, it's an individual need and Adjusting the lie can and does help, even if the bend needs to be overcooked to achieve the desired goal.

[TheTortoise]

After all of the responses I went and did some more research.

The set I had before my current J40 cbs were some used Mizuno mp-14s. I hit these distinctly straighter then my current clubs even though they were blades but still a slight draw.

The specs for the MP-14 6 iron are 32 LOFT, 60 LIE, 37.25 LENGTH compared to the j40 31 LOFT 62.5 LIE, 37.25 LENGTH

Apparently my old clubs were already 2.5 degrees flatter than these if I'm not mistaken.  

(bridgestone specs off their website and mp-14 specs off equip2golf.com)

[mukster]

My iron play turned around when I went from regular lie to 3* flat. FTR, my driver's license says I am 174cm.  I have always been a solid ball striker, but the lefts were my problem. As I was already fighting a hook, it was awful. Fixed the hook, irons still left.  Now I am happier than happy.  Loft and length standard.

[HateTheHighDraw]

I've always been fitted for more upright clubs but I recently went to 2.5* flat with my sand wedge.  Wow what a difference.  I was constantly hitting fat with the upright clubs, now my ball striking is 100x better with the flat clubs.  I don't necessarily agree with a lie board fitting, I think shorter flatter clubs are better and promote a proper inside path.  It sounds dumb, but fitting my swing to flatter shorter clubs is better for me than promoting my tendency to have an upright steep action. 6'1" btw.

[scunny]

lie board fitting can be very inconclusive as many people believe that heel/toe impacts force the club to close/open. The reality is that it's goemetry(face plane tilt) that makes the club face aim left if too upright  and right if too flat even if the leading edge is aiming at the target and that the more lot(wedges) the greater the effect(roughly 3 times greater effect in a 9 iron to a 3 iron)
Hence the reason so many players prefer flatter in wedges plus the reduced shaft bowing to be allowed for and why having your lies adjusted should always be done outside seeing the ball flight as the flight will always override the tape marks
Unless the player strikes the ball and board at the exact same time they probably won't match in the same way that divot patterns don't always match ball flight

[nbg352]

With the technology available today (Trackman, Flightscope) there really is no need to to do a lie fitting outdoors. With a lie board, which WAS the norm in the days before technology, and the help of Flightscope which shows true ball flight, direction, spin  and axis at impact are clearly shown in a number of graphics.
For those who have difficulty with believing what Flightscope tells them, I fit indoor and ask the golfer to play a couple of rounds with his newly bent clubs. If he is not happy, bring the offending club(s) back and I will re-do the adjustment. That very rarely happens.

[MizzyMan]

Like others have said, the ball starting straight and going left from there indicates more of a path/face issue than a lie issue. But the lie is probably not helping the matter. Modern clubs have gotten way more upright to help alleviate a slice and allow for high hands at impact from a steep downswing and/or early extension. Mizuno irons are known for being flatter than most OEM's. Once I worked out my swing from some bad habits that had crept in, I had to flatten my irons at least 2 degrees all the way.

[hoganfan924]

Definitely a lie issue.  The Bridgestones are surprisingly upright for Japanese made clubs (I've hit them a few times so had looked up the specs).  You don't have to use a lie board.  Some guys prefer using a vertical sharpie line on the ball and hitting off the grass to get a better look at the lie angles.  Easy to do, but you have to be certain that the line is perfectly vertical when you set it down on the ground.  The sharpie line will transfer to the clubface and then you can see if it's perpendicular to the grooves.  If the the sharpie line tilts toward the toe, the lie is too upright.

BTW, I'm 5'6" and my 6 iron lie is 58 deg. which is 4.5 deg flatter than the Bridgestone.  When I demoed them (since they weren't bent flat) it felt like I had to address the ball with the blade about 5 deg. open just to hit a reasonably straight shot.  Short irons will tend to be more of a pull hook than the longer irons when the lie is too upright.

Edited by hoganfan924, 13 November 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[nitram]

Pretty simple for you to have 'em flattened to see if it'll help. Spending a little now will save you a lot of frustration & besides, you'll never know until you give it a try.