77 replies to this topic

[tommykrebs]

Redjeep83, on 18 November 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

does anyone have any before and after video of when they fixed their EE for good and how they did it , I dont think Ive ever seen such a video

Yes, I have.

Sep. 2009 - First video after a almost 30 years hiatus.


Oct. 2010 - still OTT and EE

Edited by tommykrebs, 18 November 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[tommykrebs]

Mar. 2012 - I thought if I swing on a flatter plane I will come from the inside. Yes, but now I'm stuck. Still EE.


Nov. 2012 - I revealed my real issue. A hit impuls from the top. Now I'm working on a weight shift, hip bump, and drop of the club. The hit impuls is so ingrained that I have to practice with a small pause at the top. Due to the small place, the camera angle is too close and left. The rest of EE is reduced to a minimum or an optical illusion.


HoganStriker is right.

Edited by tommykrebs, 18 November 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[inmens]

I heard an advice that may help you, Tommy: do not accelerate from the top of the backswing, but rather, let's say, from the 10 hour position on the downswing. So, you use the first 1/4 of the arc to position the club into the right plane and then, accelerate. Of course you cannot do that without a proper body pivot.
I follow your struggle with interest, though sometimes i'm afraid you're over thinking. Well, a little bit...

[chiva]

Wow Tommy, that last video looks like a big improvement. I'm working on the exact same thing. A slight pause to force myself to slow down and not hit from the top. Eventually I won't pause, hopefully it wil just be a smooth transition.

[tommykrebs]

I always knew that the key is in the transition. Countless times I heard shift your hip towards the target, squash a bug under the left heel and drop the club into the slot. But if you hit the ball from the top you have no chance to execute a transition. It's impossible. So, I worked a couple years on the effects (EE, OTT, steep plane, hip stall, armsy swing, disconnection, being stuck, bad pivot, left wrist break down etc.) and not the cause (hit impuls).

[chiva]

tommykrebs, on 18 November 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

I always knew that the key is in the transition. Countless times I heard shift your hip towards the target, squash a bug under the left heel and drop the club into the slot. But if you hit the ball from the top you have no chance to execute a transition. It's impossible. So, I worked a couple years on the effects (EE, OTT, steep plane, hip stall, armsy swing, disconnection, being stuck, bad pivot, left wrist break down etc.) and not the cause (hit impuls).

I've been on a similar journey. It really isn't that difficult is it? Lol.

[tommykrebs]

chiva, on 18 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've been on a similar journey. It really isn't that difficult is it? Lol.

No it feels like a walk in a park.

Ok, I have to admit: In this time I want to quit Golf 312 times, seriously 33 times, sell my stuff on ebay 7 times, burn my bag with gas 3 times. And in the afternoon I was always back on the range. No kidding!

[Redjeep83]

tommykrebs, on 18 November 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

chiva, on 18 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've been on a similar journey. It really isn't that difficult is it? Lol.

No it feels like a walk in a park.

Ok, I have to admit: In this time I want to quit Golf 312 times, seriously 33 times, sell my stuff on ebay 7 times, burn my bag with gas 3 times. And in the afternoon I was always back on the range. No kidding!

Thanks for posting the videos, would be better if you were hitting the ball at normal speed though. Looked like you paused at the top for a few seconds, then dropped the club really slow and then swung at about 50 mph into the ball, lol. I can make really slow swings and not early extend as well. You do have some good points though and if you can ingrain those feelings and perform them in a fast swing it should work

[chiva]

tommykrebs, on 18 November 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

chiva, on 18 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've been on a similar journey. It really isn't that difficult is it? Lol.

No it feels like a walk in a park.

Ok, I have to admit: In this time I want to quit Golf 312 times, seriously 33 times, sell my stuff on ebay 7 times, burn my bag with gas 3 times. And in the afternoon I was always back on the range. No kidding!

I had a very similar attitude. What a frustrating game!

[Slugsy]

DaveLeeNC, on 18 November 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Since I have not yet fixed my own EE problems, this is certainly even more of a personal opinion than the norm on a golf discussion board. That said ...

For me the 'right position' at impact (and even more importantly the 12-18 inches after impact) is most uncomfortable. I have started to work on that and have decided that rather than go to MYTPI (or elsewhere) for a series of stretching exercises, I simply get into and hold that position for 30+ seconds multiple times during the day (and during a round of golf when I would otherwise just stand around). We'll see if that helps.

I 'know' impact from a 'somewhat standing up' position. I don't know if from a proper impact position (at least not in a full swing). Learning to be done here.

I struggle a bit with balance when I don't stand up into impact (and my balance has always been quite good). Again this is 'more learning to be done'. There isn't anything unbalanced about holding your spine angle/tush line through impact, other than it is different.

It is fascinating to me that I don't stand up with a 'natural' practice swing (swing but don't hit a ball and don't try to do anything except make a swing motion). But this is hardly the 1st time that I have encountered the fact that my 'natural' practice swing seems to bear no relationship to the swing that I use to hit the ball (and I have spent MUCH time on this issued before deciding that is was a waste of time).

"Chasing good ball contact on the range" is the mortal enemy of progress in your golf swing. It is so easy to drop back to bad habits in order to fix the poor ball contact that is inevitable from a swing change (because you will probably be better at hitting the ball, initially, using the old/bad habits). It is mentally difficult to leave the range after working on something, hitting the ball BADLY, but 'making better moves'. I am reminded of trying to learn to play a difficult piece on piano or guitar. No way would you do anything other than start out REALLY/REALLY slowly. Anything else is impossible. But on the range you just go at it full steam, revert to the old stuff (even though you tell yourself that you are doing the new stuff), and make no progress. The analogy in music is trying to play Flight of the Bumblebee for the 1st time on guitar, and quickly going back to Stairway to Heaven. Then you wonder why you can't play Flight of the Bumblebee (after several hours of playing Stairway to Heaven). Happens on the range all the time (and I am as guilty as anyone).

dave

What you have just said struck a real chord with me (pardon the pun).

I was at the range today working on EE and a bunch of college players came up for a session and I got so embarrassed hitting it poorly and slow mo, I ended up going to back to lookong to make good contact and no doubt not changing a damn thing and wasting the session!  Aaaargh!

[One Gray GLI]

good read, I'm glad I'm not alone on this journey. The hit impulse really hits home for me..I'm a hockey guy, and I have a tendency to cast at my transition, and "hit" instead of swinging.  

tips to stop the hit impulse though? It's driving me nuts lately.

[chiva]

One Gray GLI, on 18 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

good read, I'm glad I'm not alone on this journey. The hit impulse really hits home for me..I'm a hockey guy, and I have a tendency to cast at my transition, and "hit" instead of swinging.  

tips to stop the hit impulse though? It's driving me nuts lately.

I played hockey too. I think thats where I got my hit impulse from also. Maybe Valium and beta blockers would do the trick. Lol.

[Hoganstriker]

Thank you to Tommy Krebs for your vindication.  I recognize your true intentions to better your swing.
Guys its simple as the club nears the top you think of nothing but your hands SLOWING DOWN AND MOVING DIRECTLY TOWARDS YOUR OWN CENTER OF GRAVITY thats if you have this ee problem.
EE is an unconscious unavoidable response by your body to forces placed upon it.  UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE FORCE TO YOUR BODYS BALANCE YOU STILL SUFFER.
Change the force lose your ee real simple stuff but takes some thought.
Transition is a baby uturn not a stop sign.

Edited by Hoganstriker, 18 November 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[Redjeep83]

Hoganstriker, on 18 November 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Thank you to Tommy Krebs for your vindication.  I recognize your true intentions to better your swing.
Guys its simple as the club nears the top you think of nothing but your hands SLOWING DOWN AND MOVING DIRECTLY TOWARDS YOUR OWN CENTER OF GRAVITY thats if you have this ee problem.
EE is an unconscious unavoidable response by your body to forces placed upon it.  UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE FORCE TO YOUR BODYS BALANCE YOU STILL SUFFER.
Change the force lose your ee real simple stuff but takes some thought.
Transition is a baby uturn not a stop sign.

so where exactly is "our" center of gravity?

Edited by Redjeep83, 18 November 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[tommykrebs]

Hoganstriker, on 18 November 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Transition is a baby uturn not a stop sign.

Where is the "I like" button?

[dolleris]

Hoganstriker, on 18 November 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Thank you to Tommy Krebs for your vindication.  I recognize your true intentions to better your swing.
Guys its simple as the club nears the top you think of nothing but your hands SLOWING DOWN AND MOVING DIRECTLY TOWARDS YOUR OWN CENTER OF GRAVITY thats if you have this ee problem.
EE is an unconscious unavoidable response by your body to forces placed upon it.  UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE FORCE TO YOUR BODYS BALANCE YOU STILL SUFFER.
Change the force lose your ee real simple stuff but takes some thought.
Transition is a baby uturn not a stop sign.

Hoganstriker, thanks for Your insights - I've been fighting this war with myself and trying hard to find the key to not EE - which You seem to have adressed - can You explain further? ...how do we understand '...towards Your own center of gravity..'?

I KNOW this is simple...but lost and curing the symptoms instaed of the cause
Thanks in advance,
Soeren

Edited by dolleris, 19 November 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[DaveLeeNC]

Hoganstriker, on 18 November 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Thank you to Tommy Krebs for your vindication.  I recognize your true intentions to better your swing.
Guys its simple as the club nears the top you think of nothing but your hands SLOWING DOWN AND MOVING DIRECTLY TOWARDS YOUR OWN CENTER OF GRAVITY thats if you have this ee problem.
EE is an unconscious unavoidable response by your body to forces placed upon it.  UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE FORCE TO YOUR BODYS BALANCE YOU STILL SUFFER.
Change the force lose your ee real simple stuff but takes some thought.
Transition is a baby uturn not a stop sign.

I would certainly not disagree with the above. But (IMHO) it dramatically understates the role of physical limitations, very ingrained habits, and set-up 'errors' in various EE cases.

dave

Edited by DaveLeeNC, 19 November 2012 - 08:02 AM.

[JPeacockGolf]

DaveLeeNC, on 18 November 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

It is fascinating to me that I don't stand up with a 'natural' practice swing (swing but don't hit a ball and don't try to do anything except make a swing motion). But this is hardly the 1st time that I have encountered the fact that my 'natural' practice swing seems to bear no relationship to the swing that I use to hit the ball (and I have spent MUCH time on this issued before deciding that is was a waste of time)

dave

This is because you are not swinging AT a ball on your practice swing. If your intention is to "hit the ball" the best way to do that is to stand up out of your posture and hack at the ball. If your intention is to swing through the ball and send it to the target standing up out of your posture is unnatural. Check your intention when you step to the ball. Are you trying to hit a ball with a club or trying to hit a target with a ball?

[DaveLeeNC]

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

DaveLeeNC, on 18 November 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

It is fascinating to me that I don't stand up with a 'natural' practice swing (swing but don't hit a ball and don't try to do anything except make a swing motion). But this is hardly the 1st time that I have encountered the fact that my 'natural' practice swing seems to bear no relationship to the swing that I use to hit the ball (and I have spent MUCH time on this issued before deciding that is was a waste of time)

dave

This is because you are not swinging AT a ball on your practice swing. If your intention is to "hit the ball" the best way to do that is to stand up out of your posture and hack at the ball. If your intention is to swing through the ball and send it to the target standing up out of your posture is unnatural. Check your intention when you step to the ball. Are you trying to hit a ball with a club or trying to hit a target with a ball?

I would not say that your response is wrong.

But I would say that it might as well have been written in Swahili as I have no idea how to assess whether or not your statement (WRT my 'intention') is correct or not. I don't know the difference between hitting at the ball vs. through the ball (at least in a full swing).

dave

[nickshep7]

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

DaveLeeNC, on 18 November 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

It is fascinating to me that I don't stand up with a 'natural' practice swing (swing but don't hit a ball and don't try to do anything except make a swing motion). But this is hardly the 1st time that I have encountered the fact that my 'natural' practice swing seems to bear no relationship to the swing that I use to hit the ball (and I have spent MUCH time on this issued before deciding that is was a waste of time)

dave

This is because you are not swinging AT a ball on your practice swing. If your intention is to "hit the ball" the best way to do that is to stand up out of your posture and hack at the ball. If your intention is to swing through the ball and send it to the target standing up out of your posture is unnatural. Check your intention when you step to the ball. Are you trying to hit a ball with a club or trying to hit a target with a ball?

If one is to hit through the ball, wouldn't this call for a very forward ball position.  If doesn't seem ideal to swing through the ball especially with short irons and wedges when the goal is to strike th eball with a descending blow.... any thoughts?

[JPeacockGolf]

It does t have anything to do with ball position. Hitting through the ball basically means the ball is simply getting in the way of your swing.  When your practice swing feels good and then you short circuit when the ball is present, you hitting at the ball rather than swinging.  When you hit at the ball all of the acceloration happens before the ball. When you swing thru the ball you are accelorating thru the ball.

The "hit instinct" is very common and some people cant understand that we shouldn't be trying to hit a ball. We are trying to send the ball to the target. There is a huge difference subconsciously.  It's like driving a nail.  The object isn't to hit the head of the nail, the object is to DRIVE the nail. There IS a big difference. Now this may sound ridiculous but it's true.

I'm trying to piece together a better explanation. I'll work on it and re post.

[DaveLeeNC]

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

It does t have anything to do with ball position. Hitting through the ball basically means the ball is simply getting in the way of your swing.  When your practice swing feels good and then you short circuit when the ball is present, you hitting at the ball rather than swinging.  When you hit at the ball all of the acceloration happens before the ball. When you swing thru the ball you are accelorating thru the ball.

The "hit instinct" is very common and some people cant understand that we shouldn't be trying to hit a ball. We are trying to send the ball to the target. There is a huge difference subconsciously.  It's like driving a nail.  The object isn't to hit the head of the nail, the object is to DRIVE the nail. There IS a big difference. Now this may sound ridiculous but it's true.

I'm trying to piece together a better explanation. I'll work on it and re post.

If you repost it would be helpful if the repost included what you are responding to. And please keep in mind the differences that 'are subconscious' are not different to conscious people.

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

DaveLeeNC, on 11 November 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Here is an interesting and related question. Assuming that a given golfer is an 'early extender' and that is not going to change (for whatever reason). How would you best cope with this issue?

dave

Since no one responded to this post, here is an interesting perspective (that seems VERY reasonable to me). Assuming that EE is an inevitable result of your golfswing (for whatever reason), it would seem to me to be very reasonable that your address position mimic your EE impact position (as in being extremely upright WRT anything that is typically taught).

Just a thought.

dave

ps. And given how common this problem is maybe accommodating this issue would be helpful to many golfers.

[JPeacockGolf]

DaveLeeNC, on 19 November 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

It does t have anything to do with ball position. Hitting through the ball basically means the ball is simply getting in the way of your swing.  When your practice swing feels good and then you short circuit when the ball is present, you hitting at the ball rather than swinging.  When you hit at the ball all of the acceloration happens before the ball. When you swing thru the ball you are accelorating thru the ball.

The "hit instinct" is very common and some people cant understand that we shouldn't be trying to hit a ball. We are trying to send the ball to the target. There is a huge difference subconsciously.  It's like driving a nail.  The object isn't to hit the head of the nail, the object is to DRIVE the nail. There IS a big difference. Now this may sound ridiculous but it's true.

I'm trying to piece together a better explanation. I'll work on it and re post.

If you repost it would be helpful if the repost included what you are responding to. And please keep in mind the differences that 'are subconscious' are not different to conscious people.

dave

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about conscious people.....
What I mean by there being a difference subconsciously is that your central nervous system will cause your body to do certain things automatically depending on what your intention is. As I said, when ones intention is to hit at the ball it is very common to subconsciously release early and stand up out of posture to accommodate.  If the intention is to send the ball to the target the subconscious will more easily delay the release and allow the momentum to be released in front of the ball as it should be.

[DaveLeeNC]

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about conscious people.....
What I mean by there being a difference subconsciously is that your central nervous system will cause your body to do certain things automatically depending on what your intention is. As I said, when ones intention is to hit at the ball it is very common to subconsciously release early and stand up out of posture to accommodate.  If the intention is to send the ball to the target the subconscious will more easily delay the release and allow the momentum to be released in front of the ball as it should be.

While there might be a difference between intending to hit the ball and sending the ball to the target, it isn't one that I recognize or a difference that I find useful (at least in a full swing). IMHO, there are golfers out there who sense a difference here. I am one of those for shots involving a 1/2 swing or less. But somewhere above  that the awareness gets lost (for me, anyway).

dave

[HappyGolf]

Interesting posts here... I like Monty's video but I don't necessarily believe it's the way to correct EE on the basis that the player trying to drop their right hip stops them from getting good extension (RAISING OF THE HIPS) through impact.... amongst other things.

I believe the video below is by far the best (yet a bit of a ramble) way to understand and fix EE. To realise that the cocyx (lower pelvis) stays back whilst the right SHOULDER turns down to the ball....




Whilst Monty points out that you'll see the right hip 'high' in sufferers of EE you'll also see that their shoulders are dead level at impact (ie the right shoulder is too high). If you look at someone like David Toms or Hunter Mahan both of which DON'T early extend you'll see that they get their right shoulder out in front of them... turning down towards the ball, whereas someone like Ernie Els doesn't... and 'humps the goat'.

Another video along similar lines (but doesn't cover the pelvis staying back) is this one...

Edited by HappyGolf, 19 November 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[JPeacockGolf]

DaveLeeNC, on 19 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about conscious people.....
What I mean by there being a difference subconsciously is that your central nervous system will cause your body to do certain things automatically depending on what your intention is. As I said, when ones intention is to hit at the ball it is very common to subconsciously release early and stand up out of posture to accommodate.  If the intention is to send the ball to the target the subconscious will more easily delay the release and allow the momentum to be released in front of the ball as it should be.

While there might be a difference between intending to hit the ball and sending the ball to the target, it isn't one that I recognize or a difference that I find useful (at least in a full swing). IMHO, there are golfers out there who sense a difference here. I am one of those for shots involving a 1/2 swing or less. But somewhere above  that the awareness gets lost (for me, anyway).

dave

So you don't find the difference useful or don't see a difference?

[JPeacockGolf]

HappyGolf, on 19 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

whereas someone like Ernie Els doesn't... and 'humps the

Ernie is far from goat humping. Pretty sure you can't win a major and goat hump.

[DaveLeeNC]

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

DaveLeeNC, on 19 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

thesponge, on 19 November 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about conscious people.....
What I mean by there being a difference subconsciously is that your central nervous system will cause your body to do certain things automatically depending on what your intention is. As I said, when ones intention is to hit at the ball it is very common to subconsciously release early and stand up out of posture to accommodate.  If the intention is to send the ball to the target the subconscious will more easily delay the release and allow the momentum to be released in front of the ball as it should be.

While there might be a difference between intending to hit the ball and sending the ball to the target, it isn't one that I recognize or a difference that I find useful (at least in a full swing). IMHO, there are golfers out there who sense a difference here. I am one of those for shots involving a 1/2 swing or less. But somewhere above  that the awareness gets lost (for me, anyway).

dave

So you don't find the difference useful or don't see a difference?

For full shots the answer is no (for me). When hitting a LW 35 yards (for example) the answer is different (I think - can't say that I am absolutely sure).

dave

[JPeacockGolf]

I meant you don't see a difference OR don't find it useful? One or the other.