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My swing and early extension help/fix?


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#1 nickshep7

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

I've been fighting an early extension for quite some time and am committed to fixing the problem through stretching exercises and drills like keeping my rear up against an alignment stick throughout the swing, but anyone whose dealt with this issue knows it's tough and can wreak havoc on your swing.  Some of my shots are perfect and others terrible.  It can throw my path off big time and completely change my spine angle throughout the downswing.

2 questions really:  

1.  does anyone have any reommendations or experience in temporarily addressing early extension (ie. something I can take to the course this weekend to help minimize the issue).

2.  any drills or strectching exercises that have really helped you with this issue?



thanks for your help.

Edited by nickshep7, 09 November 2012 - 09:23 PM.


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#2 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:20 PM

Try this


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#3 poizster

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:15 PM

Like you mentioned Early Extension and maintaing your posture throughout the swing has a lot to do with ankle, calf, and hamstring flexibility. 100% of people that can't perform a full deep squat with their heels remaining on the ground will have early extension and or a loss of posture in their swing. Check out mytpi.com. It's free to sign up and it will give you access to great articles regarding EE and provide stretching exercises to help fix the problem.

#4 chiva

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:11 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Try this



Best video on EE I've ever seen and I've seen about all of them b/c this is my big problem that I'm working hard to eliminate. Thanks Monte! Your videos are the best by far!

#5 nickshep7

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:59 AM

View Postchiva, on 10 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Try this



Best video on EE I've ever seen and I've seen about all of them b/c this is my big problem that I'm working hard to eliminate. Thanks Monte! Your videos are the best by far!

View Postchiva, on 10 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Try this



Best video on EE I've ever seen and I've seen about all of them b/c this is my big problem that I'm working hard to eliminate. Thanks Monte! Your videos are the best by far!

Agreed, very good insight here.  Monte - do you have opinion whether EE can be corrected through feel as you describe in your EE videos or must it be addressed through strerching exercises and increased flexibility over time?

Edited by nickshep7, 10 November 2012 - 08:00 AM.


#6 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:26 AM

View Postnickshep7, on 10 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

View Postchiva, on 10 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Try this



Best video on EE I've ever seen and I've seen about all of them b/c this is my big problem that I'm working hard to eliminate. Thanks Monte! Your videos are the best by far!

View Postchiva, on 10 November 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Try this



Best video on EE I've ever seen and I've seen about all of them b/c this is my big problem that I'm working hard to eliminate. Thanks Monte! Your videos are the best by far!

Agreed, very good insight here.  Monte - do you have opinion whether EE can be corrected through feel as you describe in your EE videos or must it be addressed through strerching exercises and increased flexibility over time?


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#7 JPGolf FL

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:13 AM

Great vid Monte...... Really good visusal of how the hips should move. I would add that EE is really hard to overcome when ones intention is to "hit the ball" rather than swing thru the ball and send it to the target. This was a big one for me. Honestly if "hitting the ball" is the main objective. EE is the most effective way to do that. Then it becomes more like chopping wood. Your INTENTION should be to send the ball to the target.... hitting the ball is simply and unconscious part of that. This is "target focus".Then it becomes a lot easier to overcome the impulse in the right hip to fly towards the ball as monte showed.

Any vids on target focus Monte?

#8 OspreyCI

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM

Just want to comment to Monte that your videos are so easy to understand and apply. I struggle with EE and thanks for this video.
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#9 tommykrebs

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:18 AM

Try this simple drill. It helped me to understand how it feels to maintain the posture. Go to 28:40.



@thesponge

+1

Edited by tommykrebs, 10 November 2012 - 11:19 AM.


#10 caryk

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

Great video Monte.  You have a way of explaining things that's easy to understand.

I suffered from EE as well and tried all the usual things to eliminate it. Each one might work for a few sessions but then it would reappear again.  I honestly felt like I was trying to jury-rig my swing instead of it being feeling natural.  However, what DID work for me was correcting my grip which to my amazement put me in the proper positions to stop EE.  I was astonished how something that I thought was minor could affect my swing in such a major way.  I had been trying to apply band-aid fixes without much success instead of looking for the real root cause of the problem.  Once I got that corrected, ball flight (higher), swing speed (faster), and most importantly, my ability to take a proper divot (forward of the ball) improved dramatically.

So for each of us, you have to figure out the "real" reason for your EE.  Sometimes you have to work the problem further backwards then you might think.  Just make sure you have your fundamentals correct to avoid sticking multiple band-aids on it that eventually will come off.


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#11 russc

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:41 PM

The body always wants to remain in balance
.Early extension AKA humpin the goat is nothing more than your body trying to remain in balance as weight is going into your heels.It is a compensation to try to get the club to attack from the correct angles
The most common reason for EE are  flexibility deficiencies  in your Hamstrings,Gastrocs,Soleus and Achilles and  strength problems in your core muscles.Your core muscles stabilize your spine,so weakness in these muscles will make it very difficult to maintain your posture under the forces present during the downswing.. .Other very common reasons for  EE  are incorrect fore/aft weight distribution at setup and failure to make room in your backswing for your arms to go on the downswing.
i have seen a number of videos on how to fix EE and invariablly most of them focus on the downswing.If you have problems in any of the three areas that i mentioned above  ,trying to correct your problem via different feels going down are largely a waste of time
i have no idea if you have flexibility or strength problems,but I do not love the way that you bend to the ball.Your hands are low at setup.Can you pick up your toes in your golf shoes at setup?If you can not then that means that you are setting up  too much on your toes.
Going down the triad of a pivot stall ,EE and a flip are very common.It certainly is happening with you.If  the first three problems that i mentioned  are not present(making space  for your arms does not appear to be a big problem),then you need to  post a front video to determine whether you are sliding your hips  going down.Too much lateral motion going down will result in the triad that i mentioned

#12 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

Russc, I agree and disagree.

Your explanation was great and everyone who reads it will learn something from it.

However, downswing feels are not useless and here is why (and I have had lots of experience with this):

When you show people what the transition is supposed to feel like, you get responses like.

"it feels like I will pull a hamstring if I do that."

"my weight is too much on my toes to do that."


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#13 JPGolf FL

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 10 November 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Russc, I agree and disagree.

Your explanation was great and everyone who reads it will learn something from it.

However, downswing feels are not useless and here is why (and I have had lots of experience with this):

When you show people what the transition is supposed to feel like, you get responses like.

"it feels like I will pull a hamstring if I do that."

"my weight is too much on my toes to do that."

+1 monte..... Knowing what it should FEEL like while standing in front of a mirror is step 1. Something else that really allowed me to maintain my angles was allowing the right wrist to work correctly. Unhinge the wrist before impact and there is no other choice but to lose your spine angle.

#14 russc

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:34 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 10 November 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Russc, I agree and disagree.

Your explanation was great and everyone who reads it will learn something from it.

However, downswing feels are not useless and here is why (and I have had lots of experience with this):

When you show people what the transition is supposed to feel like, you get responses like.

"it feels like I will pull a hamstring if I do that."

"my weight is too much on my toes to do that."
Monte
Using the correct downswing feels as a diagnostic tool to isolate a golfers problems is an interesting point.

Too many people seem to think that EE is  just a downswing problem(and it is sometimes is ) when often  the true causes happen much earlier in the swing.I would go so far to say that EE is ALWAYS a result and never a problem by itself.

You have the insight to realize this ,but is that the case with most instructors and golfers who try to improve on their own?

Edited by russc, 10 November 2012 - 03:44 PM.


#15 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:57 PM

Russc, we agree on a good many issues.

When I had the issue it was off the ball.

My arms got inside, they disconnected and lifted at the top and forced my right should to drop.  Right shoulder drops, right hip pitches up and out.

Edited by MonteScheinblum, 10 November 2012 - 04:00 PM.

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#16 chiva

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 10 November 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Russc, we agree on a good many issues.

When I had the issue it was off the ball.

My arms got inside, they disconnected and lifted at the top and forced my right should to drop.  Right shoulder drops, right hip pitches up and out.

That's exactly my old move. That really made me laugh. What a common problem. After watching Monte's video on EE and working on getting a full wrist c0ck on the BS, I get the right hip going down instead of up and just naturally without trying am able to hold my leverage without dumping it early. Is like the light just went off and my ball striking has improved in quality and consistency overnight.

#17 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:18 AM

Attached File  nickshep7.early.extension.humping.the.goat.standing.up.jpg   54.37K   5 downloads

Can anyone else see any other problems ?

I thought a major cause of "standing up" / early extension (of the back) / humping the goat was ... flat going back, hands too deep, OTT, steep downswing, stand up to create more room.

Is there a bit of that ?

In the first image, should his right forearm be a bit more parallel to his spine angle ?  Would this mean his hands are too deep ?

I think the 9 to 3 drill would help get away from hitting with the hands vs. just rotating

#18 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostSunkTheBirdie, on 11 November 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Attachment nickshep7.early.extension.humping.the.goat.standing.up.jpg

Can anyone else see any other problems ?

I thought a major cause of "standing up" / early extension (of the back) / humping the goat was ... flat going back, hands too deep, OTT, steep downswing, stand up to create more room.

Is there a bit of that ?

In the first image, should his right forearm be a bit more parallel to his spine angle ?  Would this mean his hands are too deep ?

I think the 9 to 3 drill would help get away from hitting with the hands vs. just rotating

In your backswing I would bet your left arm gets across your chest too quickly and that causes the arms to over run a hair.

All good golfers work slightly into their heels.  Right heel back swing, left heel downswing.

You work into your toes and it doesn't allow your right shoulder, hip and knee to work low enough in downswing
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#19 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:20 PM

Here is an interesting and related question. Assuming that a given golfer is an 'early extender' and that is not going to change (for whatever reason). How would you best cope with this issue?

dave

#20 roll - gybe

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:37 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Try this


Hey Monte - great video!

I discovered the same on my own by trying to figure out why I couldn't finish with my knees together.  I reverse engineered the finish, and I found the same thing about my right side.

I found the hip to be a by-product.  For me, the right ankle and knee action were the variable.  The weight into the ground felt OPPOSITE when I was done!  The hip came along just like you described.  I had long been "putting out cigarettes" with my right foot.

The issue was a sequence issue at it's core.  It was not an issue with my strength or body in any way.  My flip is greatly reduced too as my hands can now move in lower.

...of course, my teacher has been telling me this for years, but I needed my own lightbulb to go off...


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#21 dpc

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:43 PM

The lightbulb for me in conquering EE was the right hip-right elbow connection. For reference look at this video of Hogan and notice his right shoulder, arm, elbow, and hip.  They stay together through the hitting zone!



I worked on a modified Faldo pump drill where I had the club parallel to the ground and just wedded my right elbow to my right hip and upper right arm to my side and just pivoted to hit the ball; never losing the elbow-hip connection; keeping the whole package together: shoulder,arm,elbow, and hip. The only way you can get to the ball is to have your right shoulder move down the plane, and your right hip comes along. Just like in Monte's video above. The only way to hit the ball with this package intact is to maintain primary spine angle and secondary spine tilt. This in turn forces the left hip back and up to create room. No more EE.

Looking at the stills of the OP's swing that Sunkthebirdie posted you can see he's lost the right elbow-hip connection between pics 4 and 5. The only way to get the club head to the ball when everything's thrown out like that is to stand up which he's done.

I just want to add that I've been working on EE now for 2 years and this is what finally clicked for me. I'm just a lost golfer like a lot of us here. Every thing the experts have said here regarding this or pivot driven swings I have a better understanding of now, and I don't think this advice is out of line. If you try this go very slow and don't try to hit the ball hard or you will throw the club out and bury it 8inches behind the ball and it will be painful. When you work up to full swings you won't hit as far at first and you will have a different set of sore muscles around you sides and abs, thighs and lats.
Hope this helps
-dpc

P.S. a mental image which may help is to think of a spinning record (I'm dating myself.) the inner portion (hips, shoulders and hands) are turning at the same rate as the outer portion (the club head) but the outer portion has further to travel so it moves faster. But they do have the same RPMs.

#22 Eagle006

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:26 AM

Here's a great video which really helped me with my EE problems.

My feel is working the left glute hard on the downswing and squatting into position, whilst keeping my right glute in position. Once this is done, the rest is pure momentum.

Hope this helps.

https://www.youtube....h?v=ggLTM9bfD54

Edited by Eagle006, 13 November 2012 - 04:30 AM.


#23 GooseHook

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:49 AM

This is a great discussion, and it seems like this fault is everywhere.  It breeds inconsistency, but you can still play decent golf while early extending.  I've been reading some TPI stuff recently and the biomechanics of it do make sense.

It really seems that with my swing, you have to keep peeling layers off to fix the problem. First, it's spine tilt and the takeaway.  Then, it's realizing that the feel you've ingrained in your transition is totally incorrect because you've had the fault for so long. And even after that, there's the idea that maybe physical limitations could be a factor.

I got an idea that's seemingly helpful from the TPI videos, where they suggest you feel like you're grabbing your trail hip and pulling it backwards.  I randomly did this in a mirror and instead of the right hip going backwards, my hips bumped down the target line, just like they were supposed to.  My hips are so used to spinning out that it felt screwy!

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#24 nickshep7

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:19 PM



I think I get it, but can someone tell me if I'm correct in my interpretation.  When TPI says "focus on trail hip moving backwards and towards the target simultaneously into the downswing"... by backwards, they mean perpendicualr to the target line, like towards your rear-end or back?

View PostGooseHook, on 13 November 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:


Begin drill by taking a normal golf stance and performing a normal backswing in a slow and controlled manner. From the top of the backswing, focus on your trail hip moving backwards and towards the target simultaneously into the downswing. Always perform in a slow and controlled manner. Right handed golfers will be focusing on the trail or right hip, while left handed golfers will be focusing on the trail or left hip.

http://www.mytpi.com...exerciseid=1004


#25 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:16 AM

Is avoiding EE "similar to" Maintaining the Tush line ?


Edited by SunkTheBirdie, 15 November 2012 - 09:20 AM.


#26 dpc

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:04 AM

View PostSunkTheBirdie, on 15 November 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Is avoiding EE "similar to" Maintaining the Tush line ?



Yes.  At least I've considered them synonymous.
-dpc

#27 Hoganstriker

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:06 AM

Your early extension as you call it is just your bodys attempt to balance itself which is automatic and it will always do at all times.
If I push you back you step back without thinking or else you would fall.
If you push something hard you will lean forward.
I think folks have so much problem with this because they are trying to address the effect (early extension) by addressing the hips.
I don't think it has to do with making room nor will butt against chair drill help it.
Early extension is an unavoidable automatic response to the body when force is applied.  The cause for it imo has nothing to do with anything other than your hands.
In transition when you pull the handle down hard or fire the right or both hands hard you create a club motion that creates force going down hard.
The body is automatically responding by pushing the legs up hard.
Its automatic you can't help it.  Its nothing to do with your hips and leg action that action is the bodys automatic balance response which it will always do automatically you cannot stop this.
What you need to do is change the force acting on the body so it will not do that.
ITS TRANSITION DON'T HIT FROM THE TOP!
In transition your hands should move very slowly and deliberately and ALLOW the swing to develop.  You will have faR MORE POWER AND CONTROL IF YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THIS SLOW HEAVY MOVE AS THE CLUB CHANGES DIRECTION THE SWING ACCELERATES ITSELF IN THIS FASHION YOU CANNOT STOP IT FROM DOING SO.
iTS SIMPLE the more you fire down from the top the more you will early extend.  
A lot of people fight this issue imo because they don't understand the cause and they are treating the symptom (hips legs)
Its in the hands and mind.
Slow yourself to a 1 mph crawl as the club makes a baby u turn in transition and work the hands inward towards your center of gravity.
Early extension is caused by lack of understanding of the forces you are making when you swing the club its a reaction not an action.
If you can wrap your mind around this simple concept you will find golf is way way easier than you thought.

You have to understand when you hold a club in your hands it is a powerful weapon and using it irresponsibly can have dire consequences like injury.

In transition imagine someone doing Tai Chi or Ju Jitsu.

Its a very slow heavy yet controlled movement-the club is sooo powerful you will be amazed when you learn not to fire as hard as you can from the top.

Golf swing should be a physical pleasure not a grinding workout.

SLOW DOWN AT THE TOP.

#28 Finbarr Saunders

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 01:44 PM

Could this drill help with EE ?




#29 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:40 PM

Since I have not yet fixed my own EE problems, this is certainly even more of a personal opinion than the norm on a golf discussion board. That said ...

For me the 'right position' at impact (and even more importantly the 12-18 inches after impact) is most uncomfortable. I have started to work on that and have decided that rather than go to MYTPI (or elsewhere) for a series of stretching exercises, I simply get into and hold that position for 30+ seconds multiple times during the day (and during a round of golf when I would otherwise just stand around). We'll see if that helps.

I 'know' impact from a 'somewhat standing up' position. I don't know if from a proper impact position (at least not in a full swing). Learning to be done here.

I struggle a bit with balance when I don't stand up into impact (and my balance has always been quite good). Again this is 'more learning to be done'. There isn't anything unbalanced about holding your spine angle/tush line through impact, other than it is different.

It is fascinating to me that I don't stand up with a 'natural' practice swing (swing but don't hit a ball and don't try to do anything except make a swing motion). But this is hardly the 1st time that I have encountered the fact that my 'natural' practice swing seems to bear no relationship to the swing that I use to hit the ball (and I have spent MUCH time on this issued before deciding that is was a waste of time).

"Chasing good ball contact on the range" is the mortal enemy of progress in your golf swing. It is so easy to drop back to bad habits in order to fix the poor ball contact that is inevitable from a swing change (because you will probably be better at hitting the ball, initially, using the old/bad habits). It is mentally difficult to leave the range after working on something, hitting the ball BADLY, but 'making better moves'. I am reminded of trying to learn to play a difficult piece on piano or guitar. No way would you do anything other than start out REALLY/REALLY slowly. Anything else is impossible. But on the range you just go at it full steam, revert to the old stuff (even though you tell yourself that you are doing the new stuff), and make no progress. The analogy in music is trying to play Flight of the Bumblebee for the 1st time on guitar, and quickly going back to Stairway to Heaven. Then you wonder why you can't play Flight of the Bumblebee (after several hours of playing Stairway to Heaven). Happens on the range all the time (and I am as guilty as anyone).

dave

#30 Redjeep83

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:53 PM

does anyone have any before and after video of when they fixed their EE for good and how they did it , I dont think Ive ever seen such a video


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