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Release question


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#1 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:49 AM

I am aware of two different and seemingly competing ideas about the release. One is that a pivot-driven swing will lead to the right wrist remaining hinged until after impact. The other is "hit it hard with your right hand" - and people like Nick Bradley.

But even Hogan, a pivot-kind-of-guy, if I understand correctly, wishes he had 2 right hands.  

Are these different releases for different swings, or all part of a single release approach?  I have had successes and failures with both ideas, but am really trying to get a core idea about impact and this seems to matter. I am beginning to return my arms back to the inside, and that seems to make me want to not hit it with the right hand, but I am still experimenting.  If you have ideas about these two ideas, I would like to hear them.  Thanks.

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#2 genis

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:36 AM

I always thought the pivot-driven swing was a "no hands" approach, but then, if I pivot hard, my club gets left behind/stuck. Recently I'm trying to keep the club synced up to my pivot and I definitely have to use my right to keep the club synced up. It feels like pressure building up in my right hand kind of.

#3 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:15 AM

View Postgenis, on 08 November 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

I always thought the pivot-driven swing was a "no hands" approach, but then, if I pivot hard, my club gets left behind/stuck. Recently I'm trying to keep the club synced up to my pivot and I definitely have to use my right to keep the club synced up. It feels like pressure building up in my right hand kind of.

I have to reply to someone from Windhoek, Namibia!! That is even more esoteric than Kolkata, India, where I am right now for several weeks on business (I live in Los Angeles).  

I know what you mean about the torso vs arms.  I have come to the belief that the two kind of move in sync, but a little independently - eg., I also swing my arms though, and I also turn my pivot through. For me, I kind of don't feel one leading the other.  The best way I can describe it is, I turn my pivot going back and create torque in legs, back, etc., but my arms swing up a bit and feel very free from all this torque-building.  But I sure as hell am not someone to be saying, "do it this way."  

Where do you play golf in Namibia? What's it like playing golf there?
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#4 genis

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:32 AM

I play mostly at the Windhoek Country Club, it was the only golf club around Windhoek for years. We have another golf course in the making a few kilometers away, only nine holes so far, but the second nine should be done early next year. We can play the whole year, summer is hot with occasional thunderstorms and our winter is mild and dry.

#5 juststeve

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:23 AM

I think there are two broad schools of thought about the release.  Neither are determined by whether you think it is the body or the hands/arms that power the swing.  There are those who think the release is automatic if the club is swing properly.  It just happens and doesn’t need to be taught, only allowed to happen.

At the opposite extreme are those who believe the player should actively and consciously release the club through impact.

I am personally between those two extremes.  I think a beginning player must learn to square the club to the ball with  an intentional active release.  I also think that having learned that skill the release should be, at least for ordinary shots, largely automatic.

I personally know of no accomplished player who does not consciously alter their release when the work the ball as opposed to hitting the standard shot.  That however is a special case.

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#6 MDP1555

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:44 AM

If the arms drive the swing then the motion will always pull you outside the line. if the arms and hands are mostly quiet for the majority of the transition and down swing the angle of the club to forearm is maintained which produces the lag needed for the acceleration of the club head in the last quarter of the down swing. If the arms are the motor the lag is lost and the club head is casted out early.

In the classic golf swing the shoulders, arms, hands and club head are the last things to rotate. Providing the connection of the triad is maintained the centrifugal force will cause the release of the club head in a natural non- manipulated manner.

Now there are shots where you may want to hold the release. But for the standard stock shot It really should not be manipulated to make happen but rather be allowed to happen.

A few good  sweeping hook players like to feel that they finish the release strongly but even they don’t really manipulate the hands into the ball but rather extend through the release to delay somewhat the move back to inside to add more side spin.

#7 juststeve

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:27 AM

MDP:

What you have written about the arm driven swing is wrong on a number of levels.

First "If the arms drive the swing then the motion will always pull you outside the line"  Is flat out wrong.  If you swing the club forward from the top of the swing (which is inside the line) in the direction of the target the club will always approach impact from inside the line.  The only way that won't happen is if the body interferes and throws the club over the top.

Second, the arms need not be "quiet" as you put it to maintain lag.  So long as the arms continue to accelerate the club in the forward swing lag will be maintained until the club slows down.  This is why my instructor teaches that the club is swung forward, with the arms, IN ONE CONTINUOUS MOTION.  If you do that lag is retained.  The club is squared not by manipulation but when it swings on its arc back to the inside.

Steve

#8 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:58 AM

Great thoughts as usual juststeve.

I will add this.  I am finding more and more that pursuing a swing where the arms and hands are completely passive leads to be out of sync.  As each individual finds their own swing, they need to throw some active and passive elements from different body parts to line things up.

That being said, release can be a deceptive term.  If you take it literally, that might be a good starting point.  

To me, release means one thing.  Connecting the rotation of the club to the rotation of the body.

People who cast, flip and even worse, those like me who have been taught to hold the lag by pulling the handle, need to ingrain some active feels forr a period of time in order to get that face rotation to match the body rotation.
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#9 Poser

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:06 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 08 November 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

MDP:

What you have written about the arm driven swing is wrong on a number of levels.

First "If the arms drive the swing then the motion will always pull you outside the line"  Is flat out wrong.  If you swing the club forward from the top of the swing (which is inside the line) in the direction of the target the club will always approach impact from inside the line.  The only way that won't happen is if the body interferes and throws the club over the top.

Second, the arms need not be "quiet" as you put it to maintain lag.  So long as the arms continue to accelerate the club in the forward swing lag will be maintained until the club slows down.  This is why my instructor teaches that the club is swung forward, with the arms, IN ONE CONTINUOUS MOTION.  If you do that lag is retained.  The club is squared not by manipulation but when it swings on its arc back to the inside.

Steve

Glad someone said it.  Pampling uses the right sided swing which is totally arm driven and I don't see him casting the club or anyone really that swings that way.

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#10 MDP1555

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:02 PM

The question was what is the motor that starts the downswing. IMO the answer is left glut, lower left oblique and lower abdominal. I’m not saying that the arms have no role. I’m saying they are not the motor that drives the swing. When a higher handicap asks what motors the downswing if you tell them the arms they will pull hard with the left bicep and triceps early, typically flatten the shoulders and loose wrist set almost instantly which throws the club head outside the line. If you allow the uncoil to happen in the lower body with the shoulders, arms and wrist set remaining quite at the start of the transition the club will fall into the slot, lag will be easily maintained deep into the downswing and then the arms come into play without unloading early.

If you find that to be incorrect well that is your opinion and free to have it

Edited by MDP1555, 08 November 2012 - 02:04 PM.


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#11 HitEmTrue

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:06 PM

MDP, juststeve has never said that ALL swings are powered by the arms.  He (and other folks too) swings the arms and allows the body to respond.

#12 golfsavvy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:21 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 November 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Great thoughts as usual juststeve.

I will add this.  I am finding more and more that pursuing a swing where the arms and hands are completely passive leads to be out of sync.  As each individual finds their own swing, they need to throw some active and passive elements from different body parts to line things up.

That being said, release can be a deceptive term.  If you take it literally, that might be a good starting point.  

To me, release means one thing.  Connecting the rotation of the club to the rotation of the body.

People who cast, flip and even worse, those like me who have been taught to hold the lag by pulling the handle, need to ingrain some active feels forr a period of time in order to get that face rotation to match the body rotation.

Active / passive elements...I agree.  I'd describe that feeling as actions and reactions supporting each other.  The body rotates, the arms support and react, and the wrists support and react.  There is some 'active' nature to the arms and wrists as they support and react.  There are different degrees of action/reaction, as evidenced by Payne Stewart &Colin Montgomery, Rory McIlroy, Steve Stricker, Justin Leonard -- all different.  If the arms and wrists are completely passive they may generally be out of sync.  I believe that the 'release' can be active or passive, creating different effects on ball flight, but that all releases have differing degrees of activity/passivity.

#13 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:46 PM

I think to some extent, the degree to which anything is active or passive depends on how ingrained it is already. Nothing in the swing is natural, and damn near everything was a conscious effort at some point.  

I am pretty comfortable with the arm vs pivot for myself. It is "all of the above."

What I am trying to sort out is I historically lose the connection to the pivot, arms swing out and I flip the club. Now I have more-or-less figured out how to get the arms to return inside.  I have a sense of what retaining the right wrist hinge at impact feels like (palm sort of facing downward).  Is that hinge retained or released through impact is what I am wondering about? I guess the answer is, try both and see, but I am in India without the ability to play or practice for a while, so I was wondering what others thought about this.
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#14 MDP1555

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:45 AM

I am not sure I follow!

If you have anywhere near neutral grip the right palm should be facing the target line at impact, Now after impact as the right hand and forearm begains to over take the left hand and forearm, the right palm will end up facing the ground for a while in the finish, but if the right palm is facing down at impact the club face is also facing the ground.

#15 wmblake2000

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:29 AM

View PostMDP1555, on 09 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

I am not sure I follow!

If you have anywhere near neutral grip the right palm should be facing the target line at impact, Now after impact as the right hand and forearm begains to over take the left hand and forearm, the right palm will end up facing the ground for a while in the finish, but if the right palm is facing down at impact the club face is also facing the ground.
now i will have to think and make sure i am not just writting jibberish. What i mean is compared to how.i have always released the club (flip it) keeping the rigbt wrist hinged feels pointing down to me when in fact it isn't. This creates a new level of solid contact but i stilll have to figure out how to do it without pulling the ball.

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#16 MDP1555

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:51 AM

All I was saying is that for a right hand golfer with anywhere near neutral grip the palm of the right hand somewhat reflects a plane that is parallel to the leading edge of the club face. If the right palm is facing the ground  at impact then the face of the club head is also facing the ground at impact and the back of the left hand would also be facing the ground.

Thake a golf stance, put your hands togather in a golf grip, get into impact position. Now take your right hand and rotate the wrist so that the right palm faces towards the ground. Where would the face of the club be? Forward of the hands and pointing to the ground.

Edited by MDP1555, 09 November 2012 - 10:52 AM.


#17 sonofagunn

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

MDP & wmblake, y'all are talking about 2 different things. There is more than 1 way to make the palm face the ground. Wmblake is referring to bending the wrist back, so that it is still facing down the target line, but also down at the ground. MDP - you are talking about counter-clockwise rotation until the palm is facing down.

#18 MDP1555

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:34 AM

View Postsonofagunn, on 09 November 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

MDP & wmblake, y'all are talking about 2 different things. There is more than 1 way to make the palm face the ground. Wmblake is referring to bending the wrist back, so that it is still facing down the target line, but also down at the ground. MDP - you are talking about counter-clockwise rotation until the palm is facing down.

Got ya! Forward press!




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