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Maintain impact's right wrist angle ... throughout the swing ? [slicefixer and sean foley]

right wrist angle compression angle sean foley slicefixer 9 to 3 drill

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#1 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:13 PM

I was watching the Sean Foley DVD and reading the slicefixer 9 to 3 thread ....  both talk about the benefits of maintaining the right wrist angle.

I am worried about a few things:

- potential loss of power (that being said I am a fairly long (inaccurate) hitter already 275+ yards with driver).  (Although the Enc. Texarkana says it might just mean one more club).  
- is this valid method for swinging all clubs ?  or mostly just short irons ?
- in a more traditional golf swing ... is this move the same as "holding on" ?

What I think I like:

- My actual swing might be the opposite of this type of swing as I am "super handsy". (and I'm tired of the direction control issues that come with it).  I love how this swing makes me use my body more.
- This idea seems to sacrifice power for better direction and I think I can live with that.
- even if I practice this and don't use it for every shot, I think this could be good for knockdown shot situations.

I guess the idea of not releasing the right wrist angle is alot like chipping but this is just chipping for the whole swing.

Has anyone worked this "maintain the right wrist angle into their own golf swing ?  How so ?

/Just learning :)

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Edited by SunkTheBirdie, 04 November 2012 - 03:43 PM.


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#2 russc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

The 9-3 drill is a TRAINING drill,whose purpose is to train yourself to  maintain the angle of the right wrist as you pivot through.This will  train you to make the release subservient to the pivot.and not the other way around.After you learn to do this correctly,there is no need to hold the angle of the right wrist all the  way to 3:00 ,just somewhat past impact.The hand/.forearms will release fully ,but the complete release will happen after that seen in other swing methods..Because most golfers have to fight a handsy release,many golfers will find that it is difficult to hold the angle  of the  right wrist all the way to 3:00.If you are among this group it is important to slow down your swing,by swinging easier and shorter (8-4 if necessary)so that you can succeed in holding this right wrists angle to 3:00.Then you can build up to longer and faster swings. Slicefixer has suggested using the "chip driver" or a 9-3  swing with a driver in lieu of a full 3  wood,because he has found it to be more accurate and about as long.
There is nothing to suggest that you will hit it shorter with full shorts  using this swing. ,In fact,because you are more likely to compress the ball using this swing and can really go at it by  rotating aggessively ,you probably will hit the ball farther.

#3 J13

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

agree with Russ.  I'm working with Iteach right now on this very thing.  I had to strengthen my grip and really hold that angle and I'm beginning to really compress the crap out of the ball.  My distance has changed but only in controlling it better and adding a 4-5 yards.  Def haven't lost yardage as the big muscle take over rather then my hands and arms
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#4 hoganfan924

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:07 PM

Having the right wrist in dorsi-flexion at impact is the only proper way to achieve shaft lean in a normal golf shot.  This is the most important key to solid ballstriking anytime that the ball is on the ground.  Some TGM trained guys even carry this right wrist set all the way to the finish and some TGM instructors teach it that way.

As far as clubhead speed, I've played around with this on trackman and haven't seen any significant effect on my CH speed.  However, when you do this, you will usually hit your irons a little longer because you're hitting them more solidly and you're delofting the club by a few degrees.  If you don't do this, it's almost impossible to hit the ball purely out of the sweet spot with an iron.  It's almost always going to be "a groove thin or a groove fat."

There have been some recent musings that the right wrist should be released through impact for more power and while that might be viable when the ball is teed up, I think it's very poor advice for when the ball is on the ground.

Edited by hoganfan924, 04 November 2012 - 02:14 PM.


#5 kevcarter

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

 hoganfan924, on 04 November 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Having the right wrist in dorsi-flexion at impact is the only proper way to achieve shaft lean in a normal golf shot.  This is the most important key to solid ballstriking anytime that the ball is on the ground.  Some TGM trained guys even carry this right wrist set all the way to the finish and some TGM instructors teach it that way.

As far as clubhead speed, I've played around with this on trackman and haven't seen any significant effect on my CH speed.  However, when you do this, you will usually hit your irons a little longer because you're hitting them more solidly and you're delofting the club by a few degrees.  If you don't do this, it's almost impossible to hit the ball purely out of the sweet spot with an iron.  It's almost always going to be "a groove thin or a groove fat."

There have been some recent musings that the right wrist should be released through impact for more power and while that might be viable when the ball is teed up, I think it's very poor advice for when the ball is on the ground.

Where is the "like" button? :-)

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#6 TeeAce

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

 hoganfan924, on 04 November 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Having the right wrist in dorsi-flexion at impact is the only proper way to achieve shaft lean in a normal golf shot.  This is the most important key to solid ballstriking anytime that the ball is on the ground.  Some TGM trained guys even carry this right wrist set all the way to the finish and some TGM instructors teach it that way.

As far as clubhead speed, I've played around with this on trackman and haven't seen any significant effect on my CH speed.  However, when you do this, you will usually hit your irons a little longer because you're hitting them more solidly and you're delofting the club by a few degrees.  If you don't do this, it's almost impossible to hit the ball purely out of the sweet spot with an iron.  It's almost always going to be "a groove thin or a groove fat."

There have been some recent musings that the right wrist should be released through impact for more power and while that might be viable when the ball is teed up, I think it's very poor advice for when the ball is on the ground.

Not much to add, but after getting better pivot and hand speed up with that, there is no lack of distance when maintaining that angle. Rather opposite. Speed up the handle, not the club head is the key I use a lot.

#7 kevcarter

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:33 PM

 TeeAce, on 04 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Not much to add, but after getting better pivot and hand speed up with that, there is no lack of distance when maintaining that angle. Rather opposite. Speed up the handle, not the club head is the key I use a lot.

Tee, nice to see not all scientists have come to the same conclusion. Cheers!
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#8 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:45 PM

Does anyone have any good full swing videos of a golfer holding the wrist angle ?
All help appreciated.

#9 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.
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#10 Jim Waldron

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:39 PM

Monte has it right, as usual. Although as a training exercise, as russc has explained, the mental intention - through Feel - of keeping the right wrist angle is very effective. The key is to use your Feel sense awareness, focusing on the muscles in the right wrist and forearm. What that exericise is actually accomplishing is the INHIBITION of the throw away or flip impulse in the right wrist. The actual evefntual goal is to DO NOTHING with the wrists - don't hold and don't flip it away. The root cause can be either or both: squaring the face with the wrists, or trying to add power mistakenly. And not just the right wrist hinge angle but the c0ck angles in both wrists as well. Upper arm disconnection and right elbow bend casting also play a role in this loss of right wrist hinge angle. So does Pivot Stall, although indirectly. It is a chicken/egg situation since if you Stall, you will naturally sense a power outage and try to make up for it with wrist throwaway. But you can still flip it away with an accelerating Pivot Thrust.

In my teaching, with high handicaps who are at least pivot thrusting to some small degree, I start with the inhibition of the wrist muscles first, and then add Pivot training later. This is because these players are sometimes actively, ie consciously trying to add "speed" by flipping the wrists a ton. With the mid to low handicaps, usually we try to fix the Pivot Stall first or the upper arm disconnection, since these players usually have only a little bit of flip at the bottom of the swing, and sometimes getting body to Pivot faster and with connected upper arms fixes that issue.

I seldom  see much if any loss of distance when changing the better player from a micro-flip Release pattern, a "sweeper" like a Watson or Ogilivie, to a moderate degree of right wrist hinge angle. Always a lower ball flight and more solid strike, and sometimes more distance even. with the change.


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#11 Slugsy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:18 PM

I can only further concur with Monte's view.

The 9 to 3 drill, holding the right wrist through impact was a killer for me.  I did this for 3 years under the tutelage of some well known instructors and my distances went way down as I did what Jim above intimated - I went too far and started to hold the wrist and not release properly.

These sort of drills are great for specific purposes in specific circumstances but there isn't a 'one fits all'.



#12 russc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:41 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.
Let me clarify the term hold or maintaining the right wrist  angle.During the 9-3 training exercise most golfers need to make a CONSCIOUS effort to hold the right wrist angle because unfortunately they  have ingrained exactly the opposite habit .Training  at a slow swing speed makes it much easier to develop the proper habit ,while training at full swing speeds make it almost impossible  to  change negative habits .After a golfer  learns to do this drill correctly there will be NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY  hold this right wrist angle  even just past impact ,because  the pivot and  upper arm connection will promote this result.

Edited by russc, 04 November 2012 - 05:43 PM.


#13 kevcarter

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:51 PM

 russc, on 04 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Let me clarify the term hold or maintaining the right wrist  angle.During the 9-3 training exercise most golfers need to make a CONSCIOUS effort to hold the right wrist angle because    unfortunately they  have ingrained exactly the opposite habit .Training  at a slow swing speed makes it much easier to develop the proper habit ,while training at full swing speeds make it almost impossible  to  change negative habits    .After a golfer  learns to do this drill correctly there will be NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY  hold this right wrist angle  even just past impact ,because  the pivot and  upper arm connection will promote this result.

Liked again...
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#14 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:31 PM

 russc, on 04 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.
Let me clarify the term hold or maintaining the right wrist  angle.During the 9-3 training exercise most golfers need to make a CONSCIOUS effort to hold the right wrist angle because    unfortunately they  have ingrained exactly the opposite habit .Training  at a slow swing speed makes it much easier to develop the proper habit ,while training at full swing speeds make it almost impossible  to  change negative habits    .After a golfer  learns to do this drill correctly there will be NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY  hold this right wrist angle  even just past impact ,because  the pivot and  upper arm connection will promote this result.

Nice
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#15 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.

Is that true in chipping as well ?
You don't purposely prevent the wrist angle from breaking ?


#16 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

 SunkTheBirdie, on 04 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.

Is that true in chipping as well ?
You don't purposely prevent the wrist angle from breaking ?

I don't recommend it, but for advanced players there are a few specialty shots where holding the wrist angle can produce some positive results.

But as a rule, it applies to chipping too.
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#17 kevcarter

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

 SunkTheBirdie, on 04 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.

Is that true in chipping as well ?
You don't purposely prevent the wrist angle from breaking ?

It depends upon the type of shot you want to play. Unfortunately, from personal experience, I found out that freezing the right wrist can be a huge help when afflicted with the chip yips. It limits what you can do ball flight wise, but you can get pretty proficient with low spinners...
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#18 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

 kevcarter, on 04 November 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

 SunkTheBirdie, on 04 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.

Is that true in chipping as well ?
You don't purposely prevent the wrist angle from breaking ?

It depends upon the type of shot you want to play. Unfortunately, from personal experience, I found out that freezing the right wrist can be a huge help when afflicted with the chip yips. It limits what you can do ball flight wise, but you can get pretty proficient with low spinners...

Try having the right arm chase past the body...or more specifically, the right elbow chasing the belly button.
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#19 kevcarter

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

 kevcarter, on 04 November 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

 SunkTheBirdie, on 04 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.

Is that true in chipping as well ?
You don't purposely prevent the wrist angle from breaking ?

It depends upon the type of shot you want to play. Unfortunately, from personal experience, I found out that freezing the right wrist can be a huge help when afflicted with the chip yips. It limits what you can do ball flight wise, but you can get pretty proficient with low spinners...

Try having the right arm chase past the body...or more specifically, the right elbow chasing the belly button.

Thanks Monte. I really enjoy your work here!
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#20 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

 kevcarter, on 04 November 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Liked again...

Attached File  IPB.like.is.rep.up.jpg   8.26K   11 downloads

Well, my wrists are super active through the ball.  I don't make very good ball first contact ... I seem to smush my club just behind the ball .... but because I swing for the fences ... the ball still goes quite a ways (but my divot is enormous).  

I think this drill / mental thought is going to be very helpful for me, and I'm going to use it as a knockdown shot when I need one.

Thanks everyone for the great advice & insight.

Slicefixer might use some of the content of this thread for the upcoming book  :)


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#21 kevcarter

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:31 PM

 SunkTheBirdie, on 04 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

 kevcarter, on 04 November 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Liked again...

Attached File  IPB.like.is.rep.up.jpg   8.26K   11 downloads

Well, my wrists are super active through the ball.  I don't make very good ball first contact ... I seem to smush my club just behind the ball .... but because I swing for the fences ... the ball still goes quite a ways (but my divot is enormous).  

I think this drill / mental thought is going to be very helpful for me, and I'm going to use it as a knockdown shot when I need one.

Thanks everyone for the great advice & insight.

Slicefixer might use some of the content of this thread for the upcoming book  :)

I think so too. There is a big difference between not holding the right wrist bend, and actively throwing it away. My opinion is actively throwing it away early is by far the worst of the two evils.
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#22 verderraul

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:03 PM

 russc, on 04 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.
Let me clarify the term hold or maintaining the right wrist  angle.During the 9-3 training exercise most golfers need to make a CONSCIOUS effort to hold the right wrist angle because    unfortunately they  have ingrained exactly the opposite habit .Training  at a slow swing speed makes it much easier to develop the proper habit ,while training at full swing speeds make it almost impossible  to  change negative habits    .After a golfer  learns to do this drill correctly there will be NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY  hold this right wrist angle  even just past impact ,because  the pivot and  upper arm connection will promote this result.

Extremely important that all slicefixer followers get this !!!

#23 russc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:58 PM

 verderraul, on 04 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

 russc, on 04 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.
Let me clarify the term hold or maintaining the right wrist  angle.During the 9-3 training exercise most golfers need to make a CONSCIOUS effort to hold the right wrist angle because unfortunately they  have ingrained exactly the opposite habit .Training  at a slow swing speed makes it much easier to develop the proper habit ,while training at full swing speeds make it almost impossible  to  change negative habits .After a golfer  learns to do this drill correctly there will be NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY  hold this right wrist angle  even just past impact ,because  the pivot and  upper arm connection will promote this result.

Extremely important that all slicefixer followers get this !!!
Raul
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#24 verderraul

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:23 PM

 russc, on 04 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

 verderraul, on 04 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

 russc, on 04 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.
Let me clarify the term hold or maintaining the right wrist  angle.During the 9-3 training exercise most golfers need to make a CONSCIOUS effort to hold the right wrist angle because    unfortunately they  have ingrained exactly the opposite habit .Training  at a slow swing speed makes it much easier to develop the proper habit ,while training at full swing speeds make it almost impossible  to  change negative habits    .After a golfer  learns to do this drill correctly there will be NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY  hold this right wrist angle  even just past impact ,because  the pivot and  upper arm connection will promote this result.

Extremely important that all slicefixer followers get this !!!
Raul
Hope that you have power both on the golf course and in your home.Just got mine back after 5 1/2 days

Hey Russ,

I Am in brazil right now. There is a lot of power here....and I don't mean just electric ;)

#25 lsh

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:00 AM

 russc, on 04 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.
Let me clarify the term hold or maintaining the right wrist  angle.During the 9-3 training exercise most golfers need to make a CONSCIOUS effort to hold the right wrist angle because unfortunately they  have ingrained exactly the opposite habit .Training  at a slow swing speed makes it much easier to develop the proper habit ,while training at full swing speeds make it almost impossible  to  change negative habits .After a golfer  learns to do this drill correctly there will be NO NEED TO CONSCIOUSLY  hold this right wrist angle  even just past impact ,because  the pivot and  upper arm connection will promote this result.

  Would the use of a training device called Greg Normans secret be helpfull during the slow speed training period?  Or would a device that helps hold the angle be detrimental to the learning process?


#26 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:37 AM

Yes - the Secret works, although there is a much better version of it that I had a little bit of input in designing called the Key, Gary Wiren has it at Golf Around the World. It is much longer and thus has better leverage, and the part that connects your fingers is also more effective than the original Secret, which connected just the right index finger. And you can hit balls with either aid, certainly not limited to slow mo training.

#27 hoganfan924

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:00 AM

"The Secret" can be effective, IMO but I prefer a homemade one that doesn't force the right index finger to be pulled back so far.  The secret is a passive training aid in that it forces your right wist into a dorsi-flexed position which requires no effort on the part of the golfer.  If you have something like the secret, but without the strap on the index finger and then concentrate on bending the wrist so that the back of the hand will touch the brace, that's doing something active which is a more effective training approach.  What most golfers don't realize is that if you have a sound grip, you can bend the right wrist as far back as possible in the backswing.  A lot of flippers never come close to having sufficient bend in the right wrist at any point in the swing and are doomed to a lifetime of poor impact alignments simply due to a lack of understanding.  This is why TGM places so much emphasis on the basic and acquired motion drills and Slicefixer on his version of  9 to 3.  They're fundamental to building a golf stroke.

#28 aimleft

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:17 AM

In the stack and tilt dvd Plumber and Bennett talk about holding the right wrist angle with respect to low point. They state that holding the wrist and helps to get the low point in front of the ball (assuming the weight is also forward). The also demonstrate that the longer you hold the wrist angle, the more in to our you swing path becomes. Thus the S&T pattern (with wrist angles at impact) is likely to produce a push draw.

Is a draw also the common ball flight with a properly executed SF 9-3 swing?

#29 TMBob

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:34 AM

 MonteScheinblum, on 04 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

They key point in all of this...and almost all golf instruction.

You don't maintain the right wrist angle actively.  It gets maintained through proper tilt, path and body rotation.

Trying to purposely maintain that angle pretty much kills the three things I listed.

Is it not true that one can "set" both wrist into a position that will be their strongest position together (yelding the least resistance) and this would make the "holding" of the wrist much easier then when people are just trying to "set" their wrist and end up being in to weak of a position to actually maintain them and thus why people struggle with it so much?

The lack of knowing their "strength and weakness" of their bodies and how their bones work seem to play into this equation, yes or no?

#30 hoganfan924

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:36 AM

 aimleft, on 05 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

In the stack and tilt dvd Plumber and Bennett talk about holding the right wrist angle with respect to low point. They state that holding the wrist and helps to get the low point in front of the ball (assuming the weight is also forward). The also demonstrate that the longer you hold the wrist angle, the more in to our you swing path becomes. Thus the S&T pattern (with wrist angles at impact) is likely to produce a push draw.

Is a draw also the common ball flight with a properly executed SF 9-3 swing?

Straight or slight draw but it's a small shot to be done mostly with wedges so not a lot of curve should be expected.  S&T pattern advocates much more targetward lateral motion of the pelvis which pomotes an even greater in to out path.


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