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Toe hang vs stroke type


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#1 HackerD

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:02 AM

i know face balanced goes with SBST and toe hang goes with an arc stroke.  But what is actually going on in the stroke that makes this true?  For example I use an arc stroke;  what does a putter w/ toe hang do for me?

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#2 hebron1427

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:16 AM

http://thepowerfade....us-neck-styles/

#3 DNice26

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:34 AM

I tend to make a slight arc stroke but i've found that a face balanced putter just works better for me.
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#4 chickenpotpie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:58 AM

Use what you feel comfortable with.  I can putt equally well with a face balanced putter or a putter with some toe hang.  I think all this focus on toe hang is just to help sell putters.

I actually find that the amount of forward press built into the putter has a stronger effect on my putting, as it takes my right hand out of the equation.
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#5 Badgergolfer2

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:37 AM

View PostHackerD, on 04 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

i know face balanced goes with SBST and toe hang goes with an arc stroke.  But what is actually going on in the stroke that makes this true?  For example I use an arc stroke;  what does a putter w/ toe hang do for me?
IMO, thats one of the biggest myths in golf.  There is no such thing as a true SBST stroke and gravity doesnt effect how the face closes through the stroke, so whether or not a putter is face-balanced or toe hang doesnt matter.
My stroke is an arc and I tend to prefer a center-shafted putter (face balanced), so either Im defing the laws of physics or the philosiphy is wrong.


#6 Scotty1140

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:05 PM

As mentioned, true SBST is very unlikely unless there is some form of unnatural motion with your putting stroke. You stroke will naturally have some kind of arch to it. Some people have more than others. I think the whole toe hang aspect has gone a little overboard. It's one of many important factors in choosing a putter, but I wouldn't let it limit your search to one one style of putter, neck, etc.

I'm sure others smarter than myself will chime in, but I would first look for something than is comfortable to the eye at address that you can aim properly.

Also, just a random thought...I think a lot of people guess at their "stroke type". Because they putt well with say a face-balanced or near face-balanced putter they assume they "use" a SBST stroke. I think many people would find out some interetsing things about their stroke if they sent through a good fitting like a SAM. I know I sure did.

Edited by Scotty1140, 04 November 2012 - 12:15 PM.


#7 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:33 AM

Scotty1140 +1!

If the hands rotate the putter a putter with resistance or aid of rotation might be the trick.  However if the stroke is natural and the effect of hands minimized you should be able to putt with what you aim best with.  

Like Scotty said...get fit! Nothing on the market can give you the detail of impact as can SAM PuttLab.

#8 Fourmyle of Ceres

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

So when these Tour guys say they need Cameron-style "toe flow" are the really saying that they manipulate the putter with their hands and the proper amount of "flow" gives them feedback so they can time the manipulation correctly? That's what it sounds like to me, they're wanting to feel a rhythm or tempo that suits their handsy stroke.

#9 hebron1427

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

View PostFourmyle of Ceres, on 05 November 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

So when these Tour guys say they need Cameron-style "toe flow" are the really saying that they manipulate the putter with their hands and the proper amount of "flow" gives them feedback so they can time the manipulation correctly? That's what it sounds like to me, they're wanting to feel a rhythm or tempo that suits their handsy stroke.

this isn't wrong. Tiger has even talked about how he likes to feel his hands pop right at impact.

#10 Buck Masters

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

It's just like drivers...what do players do if they are rotating too fast and start to hook the ball?  They add weight to the toe which will slow down rotation for a more square face at impact (look at Taylormade moveable weights).  Same thing with putters...if you have a stroke that rotates the face closed, a putter with toe hang will slow it down a bit.  A face balanced putter will want to rotate easier, which for someone who closes the face more during the stroke, will be harder to control and make square at impact.  It really has nothing to do with the path of the putter head, its how much rotation you have in the stroke.

Edited by Buck Masters, 05 November 2012 - 12:14 PM.


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#11 Fourmyle of Ceres

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:32 PM

View PostBuck Masters, on 05 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really has nothing to do with the path of the putter head, its how much rotation you have in the stroke.

Meaning, if I understand correctly, how much rotation of your hands takes place in the the stroke.

Hebron's mention of Tiger's comment confirms what I was guessing. If you want to feel the putterhead closing relative to your hands I can see how getting the right amount of weight out on the toe would be crucial. Too much toe weight and you feel like you're not getting it to "pop" in time, too little and you don't feel it at all.

I was actually imagining Tiger's stroke, along with Phil Mickeson's, when I was making my initial comment. They pretty obviously seem to be rotating their hands in a very precise manner.

#12 hebron1427

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:06 PM

View PostFourmyle of Ceres, on 05 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

View PostBuck Masters, on 05 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really has nothing to do with the path of the putter head, its how much rotation you have in the stroke.

Meaning, if I understand correctly, how much rotation of your hands takes place in the the stroke.

Hebron's mention of Tiger's comment confirms what I was guessing. If you want to feel the putterhead closing relative to your hands I can see how getting the right amount of weight out on the toe would be crucial. Too much toe weight and you feel like you're not getting it to "pop" in time, too little and you don't feel it at all.

I was actually imagining Tiger's stroke, along with Phil Mickeson's, when I was making my initial comment. They pretty obviously seem to be rotating their hands in a very precise manner.

there's still torque on your hands even if you're not using them to rotate the head. what you want to feel is up to you, regardless of the stroke. but someone who does arc with his wrists will need something he can feel and calibrate, as opposed to something that has no feedback (face balaned).

#13 Buck Masters

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:49 AM

The light bulb went off for me when you think of the shaft plane and not the putterhead.  The direction of the shaft during the putting stroke is moving straight back and straight through, but its also rotating. Take a look at youtube - Byron Morgan Putter Rail or PerfectStroke training aide.  You can also set up two chairs 3 to 4 feet apart with a broom stick laying across the seat and hit putts standing between the chairs with your putter shaft running along the rail.  You will instantly see how the putter shaft goes back and through on a straight line, and the putter head rotates and comes inside on the back, square at impact and inside through.

#14 Fourmyle of Ceres

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:55 AM

Yeah, the real question is whether or not you add some rotation (without your hands) to the small amount that's inherent to your shaft's path.

Some people want putting to be all about the path with the hands simply being a relaxed yet motionless way of connecting the putter to your arms. Others want to actually feel their hands rotating.

#15 Pepperturbo

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:09 PM

View PostFourmyle of Ceres, on 05 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

View PostBuck Masters, on 05 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really has nothing to do with the path of the putter head, its how much rotation you have in the stroke.

Meaning, if I understand correctly, how much rotation of your hands takes place in the the stroke.

Hebron's mention of Tiger's comment confirms what I was guessing. If you want to feel the putterhead closing relative to your hands I can see how getting the right amount of weight out on the toe would be crucial. Too much toe weight and you feel like you're not getting it to "pop" in time, too little and you don't feel it at all.

I was actually imagining Tiger's stroke, along with Phil Mickeson's, when I was making my initial comment. They pretty obviously seem to be rotating their hands in a very precise manner.

Correct.  Both like toe hang to roll the ball, which helps considerably when it comes to distance control.  For many on tour and me (IDLT), its about rolling the ball vs. popping it like Brandt Snedeker (which is unusually good with that style)  Popping the ball is not the best style for distance control.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 06 November 2012 - 12:10 PM.

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#16 hebron1427

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 06 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostFourmyle of Ceres, on 05 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

View PostBuck Masters, on 05 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really has nothing to do with the path of the putter head, its how much rotation you have in the stroke.

Meaning, if I understand correctly, how much rotation of your hands takes place in the the stroke.

Hebron's mention of Tiger's comment confirms what I was guessing. If you want to feel the putterhead closing relative to your hands I can see how getting the right amount of weight out on the toe would be crucial. Too much toe weight and you feel like you're not getting it to "pop" in time, too little and you don't feel it at all.

I was actually imagining Tiger's stroke, along with Phil Mickeson's, when I was making my initial comment. They pretty obviously seem to be rotating their hands in a very precise manner.

Correct.  Both like toe hang to roll the ball, which helps considerably when it comes to distance control.  For many on tour and me (IDLT), its about rolling the ball vs. popping it like Brandt Snedeker (which is unusually good with that style)  Popping the ball is not the best style for distance control.

nick watney also comes to mind for that type of stroke. when he's on, he putts lights out.

#17 Buck Masters

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:40 PM

Another good video is http://bannlynchgolf.com/blog/?p=323  This gives a good explanation of the putter shaft path and shows the chair drill.

#18 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:16 PM

Remember guys that even with the rail for SBST On Plane the putter isn't actually rotating about the axis of the plane.  Face angle should be square to path. Face angle should stay constant.  If the hands ADD rotation then there is a certain amount of correction through impact required.  SBST On Plane with face angle square to path is what you should see.

Edited by PuttingDoctor, 06 November 2012 - 06:21 PM.





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