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A question about belly putting technique


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#1 fore

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 04:02 PM

So, with all this controversy about "anchored pivot point" putting I got to thinking. If it's ruled to be fully acceptable by the golf powers that be, perhaps I'll have to try it. It's certainly has the potential to be an easier method. I'm just not sure if it will work for me. I've always been a pendulum type putter. Putter goes back on the intended line and forward on the intended line, with no opening and closing of the club face. With an anchored pivot point is this even physically possible?


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#2 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:21 PM

If you change to a belly putter you will pretty much be forced into a 'gated stroke' (face opens going back and closes going forward). This is different than a SBST/pendulum stroke, but is hardly unnatural or unusual.

dave

Edited by DaveLeeNC, 03 November 2012 - 07:21 PM.


#3 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

View Postthatsone, on 03 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

So, with all this controversy about "anchored pivot point" putting I got to thinking. If it's ruled to be fully acceptable by the golf powers that be, perhaps I'll have to try it. It's certainly has the potential to be an easier method. I'm just not sure if it will work for me. I've always been a pendulum type putter. Putter goes back on the intended line and forward on the intended line, with no opening and closing of the club face. With an anchored pivot point is this even physically possible?
Unless you have perpendicular shaft it is unlikely that your stroke goes SBST.  The goal of the putting stroke working at the highest efficiency is to have face angle square to path through out the stroke.  There is still lots of room for manipulation in the belly putter stroke, trust me I've seen lots of variations.  It still depends upon the way the putter is moved as to the way it behaves.  The anchored putter can be moved by hands alone or by the complete upper torso... the changes in path and face angle are wide.

#4 fore

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 08:36 PM

Thank you for both responses. They both reflect my doubts of the usefulness of the belly putter for me.

A gated type stroke isn't for me, and I don't think a perpendicular shafted putter is even legal. I would need more belly to use a perpendicular shafted putter even if it were legal.

Don't  know why anyone would want a gated stroke.

#5 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

thatsone, perpendicular shaft was in reference to your SBST "on the line" thoughts.  The only true way to get a SBST ie. with face looking at the target throughout is to manipulate the putter while in motion. If this is your method there has to be a fair amount of close and open of face angle you're unaware of.

The idea of "gated stroke" has been in my opinion misinterpreted for many years.  Many who have read Stan Utley mistake his reference to this style of stroke.  In his presentations to PGA audiences he quickly tells each group, "I teach SBST on plane."

The plane of the SBST stroke is dictated by the inclined angle of the putter shaft.  It arcs naturally in to in while traveling SBST.  

As to a perpendicular shaft you can hold a shaft in this manner, though unless you're using Face On (side saddle) methodology and a zero loft putter I wouldn't recommend it. The rules give us a maximum shaft angle but as of yet no usage restrictions minus straddling the line.


#6 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:12 AM

View PostPuttingDoctor, on 04 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

thatsone, perpendicular shaft was in reference to your SBST "on the line" thoughts.  The only true way to get a SBST ie. with face looking at the target throughout is to manipulate the putter while in motion. If this is your method there has to be a fair amount of close and open of face angle you're unaware of.

The idea of "gated stroke" has been in my opinion misinterpreted for many years.  Many who have read Stan Utley mistake his reference to this style of stroke.  In his presentations to PGA audiences he quickly tells each group, "I teach SBST on plane."

The plane of the SBST stroke is dictated by the inclined angle of the putter shaft.  It arcs naturally in to in while traveling SBST.  

As to a perpendicular shaft you can hold a shaft in this manner, though unless you're using Face On (side saddle) methodology and a zero loft putter I wouldn't recommend it. The rules give us a maximum shaft angle but as of yet no usage restrictions minus straddling the line.

Achieving 'true' SBST has nothing to do with the putter shaft angle. It is strictly a function of how accurately you can rock your shoulders up/down (assuming that your arms/wrists do NOT move relative to your shoulders).

It isn't a particularly natural thing to do and could fairly be characterized as 'off plane' (and obviously will NEVER be perfect). But it has nothing to do with the shaft angle or manipulation with the hands.

dave

#7 fore

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:58 AM

View PostPuttingDoctor, on 04 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

thatsone, perpendicular shaft was in reference to your SBST "on the line" thoughts.  The only true way to get a SBST ie. with face looking at the target throughout is to manipulate the putter while in motion. If this is your method there has to be a fair amount of close and open of face angle you're unaware of.

The idea of "gated stroke" has been in my opinion misinterpreted for many years.  Many who have read Stan Utley mistake his reference to this style of stroke.  In his presentations to PGA audiences he quickly tells each group, "I teach SBST on plane."

The plane of the SBST stroke is dictated by the inclined angle of the putter shaft.  It arcs naturally in to in while traveling SBST.  

As to a perpendicular shaft you can hold a shaft in this manner, though unless you're using Face On (side saddle) methodology and a zero loft putter I wouldn't recommend it. The rules give us a maximum shaft angle but as of yet no usage restrictions minus straddling the line.

I was kinda elaborating on the perpendicular shaft. I once wanted to a perpendicular shafted putter and discovered it wasn't legal. I use a putter that's close to center shafted and very upright (but legal).

On short to medium length putts on reasonably fast greens I can keep the face square and on the line. There is some subtle hand manipulation involved but over the years it's come to feel natural.  Long putts I mentally approach almost like a chip using the putter, so there is a little opening and closing of the face for long putts.

Seems odd to me that an anchored pivot point has been acceptable yet there is a lie angle limit preventing a perpendicular shaft set up.

I can't wrap my head around -" It arcs naturally in to in while traveling SBST".

#8 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

View Postthatsone, on 04 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:


I can't wrap my head around -" It arcs naturally in to in while traveling SBST".

See if this works... note the putter at the back of the back stroke has moved inside.  The view from above will be a very slight in to in arc.  I've posted screen shots of this on the SAM PuttLab before.
This is SBST on plane.



Edited by PuttingDoctor, 04 November 2012 - 11:04 AM.


#9 fore

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:03 PM

View PostPuttingDoctor, on 04 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

View Postthatsone, on 04 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

I can't wrap my head around -" It arcs naturally in to in while traveling SBST".

See if this works... note the putter at the back of the back stroke has moved inside.  The view from above will be a very slight in to in arc.  I've posted screen shots of this on the SAM PuttLab before.
This is SBST on plane.



I see what you mean. Sort of varying degrees of SBST. Given no manipulation of the hands there's some minimal arc to the stroke.

#10 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

thatsone, glad to help.  As Stan Utley would offer the SBST on plane stroke is what this and other rail type devices will give you.  Look at Swinkey or now as it's called The Golfer's Toolbox for similar training.  When you practice on both sides of the rail you eliminate one sided training.


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#11 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:17 AM

View PostDaveLeeNC, on 04 November 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

View PostPuttingDoctor, on 04 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

thatsone, perpendicular shaft was in reference to your SBST "on the line" thoughts.  The only true way to get a SBST ie. with face looking at the target throughout is to manipulate the putter while in motion. If this is your method there has to be a fair amount of close and open of face angle you're unaware of.

The idea of "gated stroke" has been in my opinion misinterpreted for many years.  Many who have read Stan Utley mistake his reference to this style of stroke.  In his presentations to PGA audiences he quickly tells each group, "I teach SBST on plane."

The plane of the SBST stroke is dictated by the inclined angle of the putter shaft.  It arcs naturally in to in while traveling SBST.  

As to a perpendicular shaft you can hold a shaft in this manner, though unless you're using Face On (side saddle) methodology and a zero loft putter I wouldn't recommend it. The rules give us a maximum shaft angle but as of yet no usage restrictions minus straddling the line.

Achieving 'true' SBST has nothing to do with the putter shaft angle. It is strictly a function of how accurately you can rock your shoulders up/down (assuming that your arms/wrists do NOT move relative to your shoulders).

It isn't a particularly natural thing to do and could fairly be characterized as 'off plane' (and obviously will NEVER be perfect). But it has nothing to do with the shaft angle or manipulation with the hands.

dave
Dave, to achieve what you are calling a "True SBST stroke" one would have to have shoulders (the pivot point) directly above the ball / target line to achieve motion restricted to the target line.  This would have the head/eyes out beyond the ball.  In the modern putting stroke we see eyes over or inside the ball.  This puts the pivot point inside the target line.  In this regard the putter must move away from the pivot point down the line and then back to impact or address and then be pushed out down the line following impact. The most misinterpreted point of those who attempt to putt SBST is keeping the face square to the target line.  As stated this takes more manipulation via the hands.  The majority of players I've tested via SAM PuttLab who are SBST have a fanning motion, open-square-closed on the line.  Tiger did this for many years with high regularity.  Others who try find it difficult to square long enough or exactly at impact... leads one into the political... "You're no Tiger Woods." :)

#12 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:01 PM

View PostPuttingDoctor, on 05 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Dave, to achieve what you are calling a "True SBST stroke" one would have to have shoulders (the pivot point) directly above the ball / target line to achieve motion restricted to the target line.

This would have the head/eyes out beyond the ball.  In the modern putting stroke we see eyes over or inside the ball.  This puts the pivot point inside the target line.  In this regard the putter must move away from the pivot point down the line and then back to impact or address and then be pushed out down the line following impact. The most misinterpreted point of those who attempt to putt SBST is keeping the face square to the target line.  As stated this takes more manipulation via the hands.  The majority of players I've tested via SAM PuttLab who are SBST have a fanning motion, open-square-closed on the line.  Tiger did this for many years with high regularity.  Others who try find it difficult to square long enough or exactly at impact... leads one into the political... "You're no Tiger Woods." :)

I slightly edited your post into two paragraphs (no wording changes). And I did this because paragraph #1 (above) is just not correct.

When you have a pure (as in nobody on this planet will ever do anything this pure) SBST stroke, there is a LINE of rotation, not a point of rotation. This LINE is parallel to the ground and vertical to your sternum/chest. And there is (roughly) a point at which your sternum and this line intersect. But where this point is relative to the ball has NOTHING to do with anything (other than where your eyes are and the lie angle of your putter).

Imagine a door rotated 90* so that the hinges are now on the top (parallel to the ground). Now draw a putter (in the putting position) on this door at whatever lie angle you wish. Heck - make the door 100 feet long and draw the putter so that the grip end is at the top left and the putter face is at the bottom right (as in100+' away). Now swing the door. The 'putter face' that you just drew stays square to the target line.

Now stand so that your sternum intersects the 'hinge line' of the door and your hands grip the putter grip that you drew on the door. Now rock your shoulders vertically with the door. This 100' lng (plus a tad) putter with a lie angle of like almost zero has a truly pure SBST motion and your eyes are 100' from the ball (and no hand manipulation is required).

If folks are doing hand manipulation with a SBST stroke, then (IMHO) they are WAY too focused on perfection of the SBST motion. Nobody will every have a pure vertical shoulder motion and (IMHO) nobody should ever worry about that. The whole purpose of the SBST motion is to keep the putter face square to the target more than does a 'gated' stroke (at the cost of a motion that is less natural). Perfection is a waste of time (again IMHO).

dave

Edited by DaveLeeNC, 05 November 2012 - 04:03 PM.


#13 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:52 AM

Dave, thanks for the edit.... Win 8 is a bit of a weird one right now and the window for text on WRX will not accept a carriage return (enter) so I'm one longwinded paragraph.  We can go on but at least we agree that the attempt to keep face square to target is overdone by most who attempt SBST.   Now as to the center of pivot I think if you look at it you'll find it more forward than you represent.  The unequal reach of the arms, cant of the shoulder due to left hand higher than right will move the center forward to the left pectoral area.  The real test for golfers that I go through almost daily is to have them stand in fundamentally correct posture and make a repeating stroke with eyes closed.  They are able to take direction to modify length of stroke to a proper balance of length back and forward and when asked to open their eyes to watch the motion of the putter are often surprised to see what is natural for them, the length of putter and their setup.  It is rarely SBST.... and even the ARC putters find a diminished rotation and SBST  ON PLANE....




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