27 replies to this topic

[Flatstick77]

If roll groove technology helps you roll your putt w/ forward spin and reduces skidding, why do you not see more pro's using putters with this technology?  I understand that they are great putters, but if the technology potentially can help you, why not use it..

Is it a gimmick?  I know I am putting better since using it, but I have always wondered why more pro's or people aren't using the technology??

[finalist]

It's a fashionable marketing term. The reduced loft on putters with this "tech" is what people may be experiencing as a positive, but not all people require such little loft.

They make great show room putters... Hard, fast store carpet that doesn't settle under a stationary ball like grass.

[WVP]

finalist, on 03 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

It's a fashionable marketing term. The reduced loft on putters with this "tech" is what people may be experiencing as a positive, but not all people require such little loft.

They make great show room putters... Hard, fast store carpet that doesn't settle under a stationary ball like grass.

Seems to work pretty well on the Champions tour, isn't Rife the most used putter out there? Do you attribute all of that success to the 2 degrees? And I think Yes! uses 3 degrees so that's not dramatically different to the most commonly used loft of 4 degrees.

I use a Rife but not necessarily due to the grooved face. I like everything about my particular model and it does put a good roll on the ball when I putt properly. But it's not magic or anything on a lazy, poorly struck putt.

I will say this, I have never purchased a Yes! due to none of the models fitting my eye, but no putter has rolled the ball as consistently as good as Yes! putters when I screw around at the stores. Might just be me but every single putt with various Yes! models has rolled great. And as soon as they offer my preferred style I am buying one.

[MCCA]

I have 2 Yes models  a callie & forged Dawn. I agree with above post the loft has a bigger impact than the grooves. both are going to the basement. Scotty 2.6 back in the bag

[502 to Right]

It's a gimmick.

[PuttingDoctor]

The effect of limited loft can't be denied. How you get to limited loft is the question.  It's all about the effective or dynamic loft at impact.  On a stimp of 10 a 2 degree launch angle is optimum. RIFE have trademarked "Roll Groove Technology" and in fact the upward angle of the grooves do provide a bit of purchase on the surface of the ball.  

More important is the fact that the grooves provide dropouts that translate to limited contact between ball and face.  This limited contact changes sound / feel and for some this is key.

FlatStick, it's actually more about the $$$$ as most of the putters in use on tour come with a check attached.

Edited by PuttingDoctor, 04 November 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[Flatstick77]

Oh yeah, definitely about the $$$$$ as I figured

[CWB]

"reliability of
roll grooved pipe since the 1970’s through their Listing/
Approval of it for use in fire protection systems."
(sorry I'm in the industry) 1" -12" dia pipe

yes the  grooves in putter do things
probably let you have a little less loft & get the ball spinning the right direction
Milling, or holes in putter do the same TYPE of thing based are depth & amount

LOFT of putter AT impact is VERY important

the thing all these milling/grooves do is change the feel of the putter (sound = feel)
deep milling usually softens the feel of putter when it makes contact

[finalist]

And when sales on this trend start to fade the smooth flat face will be all the rage once again.

I'm holding out for nano-tech PVD face coatings that heat the sweet spot for "Hot Balls" tech!! I call dibs on the "Hot Balls Tech" copyright ownership OEMs! Lol.

[J13]

it comes full circle finalist !  I think grooves can offer assitance to a player but I think a proper putting fitting which measures your loft at impact to make adjustments to put a proper roll on the ball accomplishes the same thing.

[mahonie]

I have noticed, particularly on slower greens, that I have to hit my Rife more firmly than other putters. My impression is that this is due to the ball not 'skipping' as much (i.e. because the ball rolls immediately, there is increased friction resulting in a loss in distance). This really affects my distance control.

Also, on occasion I get a really 'dead' contact where I feel that a proportion of the grooves makes contact with the dimple depressions in the ball usually resulting in the ball only travelling about 75% of the intended distance. Having said that, it could just be operator error!!

[finalist]

mahonie, on 08 November 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I have noticed, particularly on slower greens, that I have to hit my Rife more firmly than other putters. My impression is that this is due to the ball not 'skipping' as much (i.e. because the ball rolls immediately, there is increased friction resulting in a loss in distance). This really affects my distance control.

Also, on occasion I get a really 'dead' contact where I feel that a proportion of the grooves makes contact with the dimple depressions in the ball usually resulting in the ball only travelling about 75% of the intended distance. Having said that, it could just be operator error!!

All balls skip until they reach a certain velocity. Even a four footer skips.

The best knowledge in the game... Bruce Rearick info below:

"A putted ball skidding always skids straight."

"You can't reduce skidding. The ball wont roll until it reaches a certain speed. We talked about this in another thread.
What they have reduced is launch angle. They get it skidding sooner. But that wont sell a putter will it?
Skidding sooner for an eventually more accurate roll? This is what they are really saying. Even then it is not true."

[majic]

I feel that there is a lot of bad information on this subject.  This is like many things in golf.  In 1998 i was working on a new putter design which i ultimately patented and in the development I came across a face milling pattern that did improve the performance of the putter with urethane golf balls.  i had the surface tested against a standard milled face by a large golf club company and they agreed with me.  In my years working with PGA Tour players and good am's i had noticed a difference in the ball performance and putter faces with the new urethane ball cover. You can agree or not but I am sure it does improve feel and overall distance control. My latest design of my TM-2 model putter, one of the most popular designs ever, has the face milling i developed. I feel it is an important part of putting.  I feel also a a reference and only a reference 3.5 to 4 degrees is a good starting point for loft.  Tad Moore

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[finalist]

What is improved feel?

Some like it hard some like it soft... and some like to get their groove on! Cue the slow jams! lol.

Edited by finalist, 08 November 2012 - 02:35 PM.

[WVP]

Very interested in this subject. finalist - I really respect your opinion on this topic any maybe it's a trend but there's plenty of manufacturer's doing this - not only Rife and Yes! but Machine, Tad (per above), Bettinardi plus Taylormade/Nike/Odyssey all offer a face designed to roll the ball better.

Would like to see Dave Billings and also the Bettinardi guys chime in.

[majic]

I will try to give some input into the questions.  Regarding feel it is what you actually feel in your hands not what you hear.  Two different things.  Different face milling can make a difference.  I have been making putters since 1963 and playing golf long before then.  I have worked with some of the best players all over the world.  Before they were being paid to use a putter and since they have.  i feel i know putting and how to make a putter fit a player.
Loft, Lie, Weight, Design, Shaft, Grip and may other things influence the players ability to perform at the highest level.  The Tour player gets the best of equipment made available to him but in many cases he cannot use it or is not skilled enough to be able to get everything out of the putter.  Some are just not good putters of the ball.  Eyesight, Feel in their hands and strength in their forearms can be issues to not allow top putting.  Many things.
The good amateur player needs to self evaluate and make a good choice on their putter.  Don't be influenced by who is using a certain putter.  Try to determine what is best for them.  Maybe they cannot get any benefit from face technology?  Maybe this should not be of a concern.  If they think like I do that distance control is one of the key ingredients to good putting I urge them to try it.  Make their own call.  Tad

[KLP1264]

That's a really great post Tad-  with some very important observations- like some Tour players are just not good putters of the ball and Don't be influenced by who is using a certain putter, -  with the most important I think-  "The good amateur player needs to self evaluate and make a good choice on their putter and determine what is best for them"
Putting is the most individual part of our game, if  Roll grooves, Fit face, Deep Milling, Vertical milling, Copper insert, Urethane insert, Method Core or a smooth flat face
gets you to putt better and make more putts it's NO Gimmick- That's what it's all about !!!- It's what makes this game of golf so unique.
Kari.

[Flatstick77]

Properly fit putter has been the best putting aid I have purchased, and I'm a believer in the face milling, just works for me....


Looks like Ping is even offering this technology now.....

Edited by Flatstick77, 16 February 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Bettinardi LTD]

Bettinardi’s patented F.I.T. face (Feel Impact Technology), grooves are milled into the face of the putter to reduce the surface contact area for a softer sensation at impact. A properly fitted putter should help your game.

Jimmy

[Dead Solid Perfect]

finalist, on 03 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

It's a fashionable marketing term. The reduced loft on putters with this "tech" is what people may be experiencing as a positive, but not all people require such little loft.

They make great show room putters... Hard, fast store carpet that doesn't settle under a stationary ball like grass.

There is more than Marketing going on here.  There is enough high speed film on putters with or without grooves showing the advantages.  One of the pics shows a Tad Moore with a milled face.  The point of the milling is it is almost impossible to make a smooth face because, as the metal cools it will cool at different rates creating, for lack of a better term, waves in the smooth surface.  The milling removes those waves out of the surface.  After putter companies started doing this it wasn't long before they started experimenting with actual grooves.  The grooves allowed the lofts to be decreased on the putters.  I don't think we will ever see smooth faced putters again, but I could be wrong.  If I've stated something incorrect The Putting Doctor will correct and I will not disagree with him.

[rich1eleven]

I have had good results with a Yes Callie 12, but I could not discern if the ball gets rolling faster than the other putters I've tried

[finalist]

Dead Solid Perfect, on 16 February 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

finalist, on 03 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

It's a fashionable marketing term. The reduced loft on putters with this "tech" is what people may be experiencing as a positive, but not all people require such little loft.

They make great show room putters... Hard, fast store carpet that doesn't settle under a stationary ball like grass.

There is more than Marketing going on here.  There is enough high speed film on putters with or without grooves showing the advantages.  One of the pics shows a Tad Moore with a milled face.  The point of the milling is it is almost impossible to make a smooth face because, as the metal cools it will cool at different rates creating, for lack of a better term, waves in the smooth surface.  The milling removes those waves out of the surface.  After putter companies started doing this it wasn't long before they started experimenting with actual grooves.  The grooves allowed the lofts to be decreased on the putters.  I don't think we will ever see smooth faced putters again, but I could be wrong.  If I've stated something incorrect The Putting Doctor will correct and I will not disagree with him.

Yeah, I know a little bit about putters too. ...and marketing, and marketing videos.

If a player has a big forward press where do you think two degrees of loft will direct impact? Also, balls have various cover hardness designs, how do you think groove tech works across the various ball designs?

Golf is absolutely unabashedly saturated with marketing, and it's working very well.

BTW milling a face for flatness is common knowledge, but how, why and for who groove tech/two degrees of loft is for is widely misunderstood.

Did you know a standard trendy deep mill is cheaper to produce than a fine milled face?

Edited by finalist, 17 February 2013 - 03:11 AM.

[PuttingDoctor]

Interesting resurrection of this thread.

I'm not sure I agree with the skidding comments above.  It is possible to launch a ball with overspin (top spin) if the dynamics at impact have rise overcome effective loft by 0.7*.  If the ball is launched with back spin or neutral spin then skidding may happen however it is surface FRICTION vs. velocity that creates either skid or forward roll in order.  Depending upon launch angle and velocity you may produce a forward spinning bouncing ball.

With putter speed for a ten foot putt being from 2.5 - 3 mph the effect of face treatments can be overstated.  It is no coincidence that most all of the putters on the market touting better roll have reduced lofts.

One more time I'll state for the record.... It's not about static loft.... but more about your dynamic numbers at impact.

Edited by PuttingDoctor, 17 February 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[supernads]

If you want a ball to roll you need to overcome the mass moment of inertia by applying a force tangential to the ball.   The roll groove technology, and other face patterns have a negligable ability to apply anything other than a radial force to the ball.  

If you hit a billiard ball with a cue stick on a radial path you will impart zero spin to the ball with the cue.... you can change the surface pattern of the cue to any pattern in the world, it isn't going to change.   If you want the cue ball to spin, you need to hit it off-center and impart a tangential force to get it spinning.   You can do that with a typical cue with a typical 12mm tip that is 22% of the diameter of a cue ball.   You can do it even better with a 10mm tip that is only 17% of the size of the cue ball.  

If you put a 28mm cue tip with zero radius on the end of a cue stick, you start to approximate the face of a putter against the face of a golf ball.   Unless you miss the center of the ball, the force imparted on the ball is going to be radial and impart no spin to the ball... it will only start spinning with outside contact with the felt, bumpers and other balls which will introduce tangiential forces.   How many putters miss the center of the ball?

It is contact with the putting surface that applies spin to the ball... and that is going to change with every putting surface.  Just as loft angle of the putter face is going to change with every person's swing, if not every swing of the same person.

You can deloft a putter and introduce an increased level of tangential force from contact with the turf earlier in the roll, but there is a tradeoff.   Work done by the ball contacting the putting surface to begin spin comes only as a result of lost kinetic energy... which means you slowed the ball down to get it rolling.    When you go too far with your attempts to get the ball rolling more quickly, you rapidly lose distance control over a variety of putting surface conditions.  

18 holes at your local course are not carpet at the big box store and never will be.   Leave the marketing where it belongs... at the store.

[Dead Solid Perfect]

finalist, on 17 February 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

Dead Solid Perfect, on 16 February 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

finalist, on 03 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

It's a fashionable marketing term. The reduced loft on putters with this "tech" is what people may be experiencing as a positive, but not all people require such little loft.

They make great show room putters... Hard, fast store carpet that doesn't settle under a stationary ball like grass.

There is more than Marketing going on here.  There is enough high speed film on putters with or without grooves showing the advantages.  One of the pics shows a Tad Moore with a milled face.  The point of the milling is it is almost impossible to make a smooth face because, as the metal cools it will cool at different rates creating, for lack of a better term, waves in the smooth surface.  The milling removes those waves out of the surface.  After putter companies started doing this it wasn't long before they started experimenting with actual grooves.  The grooves allowed the lofts to be decreased on the putters.  I don't think we will ever see smooth faced putters again, but I could be wrong.  If I've stated something incorrect The Putting Doctor will correct and I will not disagree with him.

Yeah, I know a little bit about putters too. ...and marketing, and marketing videos.

If a player has a big forward press where do you think two degrees of loft will direct impact? Also, balls have various cover hardness designs, how do you think groove tech works across the various ball designs?

Golf is absolutely unabashedly saturated with marketing, and it's working very well.

BTW milling a face for flatness is common knowledge, but how, why and for who groove tech/two degrees of loft is for is widely misunderstood.

Did you know a standard trendy deep mill is cheaper to produce than a fine milled face?

I will agree that if you have a large amount of forward press Then the loft of your putter needs to be adjusted.  I putt with a rife and have 3.5 degrees of loft on it because of the way I press the putter to start my stroke.   I'm not disagreeing with you on marketing in golf  just that there seems to be some merit to grooves in the face of a putter.  Ive had this discussion about dynamic loft in previous threads, by your original statement it seemed you where challenging the merit of milling as well as grooves.

[geauxWRX]

supernads, on 17 February 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

If you want a ball to roll you need to overcome the mass moment of inertia by applying a force tangential to the ball.   The roll groove technology, and other face patterns have a negligable ability to apply anything other than a radial force to the ball.  

If you hit a billiard ball with a cue stick on a radial path you will impart zero spin to the ball with the cue.... you can change the surface pattern of the cue to any pattern in the world, it isn't going to change.   If you want the cue ball to spin, you need to hit it off-center and impart a tangential force to get it spinning.   You can do that with a typical cue with a typical 12mm tip that is 22% of the diameter of a cue ball.   You can do it even better with a 10mm tip that is only 17% of the size of the cue ball.  

If you put a 28mm cue tip with zero radius on the end of a cue stick, you start to approximate the face of a putter against the face of a golf ball.   Unless you miss the center of the ball, the force imparted on the ball is going to be radial and impart no spin to the ball... it will only start spinning with outside contact with the felt, bumpers and other balls which will introduce tangiential forces.   How many putters miss the center of the ball?

It is contact with the putting surface that applies spin to the ball... and that is going to change with every putting surface.  Just as loft angle of the putter face is going to change with every person's swing, if not every swing of the same person.

You can deloft a putter and introduce an increased level of tangential force from contact with the turf earlier in the roll, but there is a tradeoff.   Work done by the ball contacting the putting surface to begin spin comes only as a result of lost kinetic energy... which means you slowed the ball down to get it rolling. When you go too far with your attempts to get the ball rolling more quickly, you rapidly lose distance control over a variety of putting surface conditions.  

18 holes at your local course are not carpet at the big box store and never will be.   Leave the marketing where it belongs... at the store.

From a PE in CE, this write up goes over the head of 99% of people

[indyvai]

dplambert1, on 18 February 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

supernads, on 17 February 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

If you want a ball to roll you need to overcome the mass moment of inertia by applying a force tangential to the ball.   The roll groove technology, and other face patterns have a negligable ability to apply anything other than a radial force to the ball.  

If you hit a billiard ball with a cue stick on a radial path you will impart zero spin to the ball with the cue.... you can change the surface pattern of the cue to any pattern in the world, it isn't going to change.   If you want the cue ball to spin, you need to hit it off-center and impart a tangential force to get it spinning.   You can do that with a typical cue with a typical 12mm tip that is 22% of the diameter of a cue ball.   You can do it even better with a 10mm tip that is only 17% of the size of the cue ball.  

If you put a 28mm cue tip with zero radius on the end of a cue stick, you start to approximate the face of a putter against the face of a golf ball.   Unless you miss the center of the ball, the force imparted on the ball is going to be radial and impart no spin to the ball... it will only start spinning with outside contact with the felt, bumpers and other balls which will introduce tangiential forces.   How many putters miss the center of the ball?

It is contact with the putting surface that applies spin to the ball... and that is going to change with every putting surface.  Just as loft angle of the putter face is going to change with every person's swing, if not every swing of the same person.

You can deloft a putter and introduce an increased level of tangential force from contact with the turf earlier in the roll, but there is a tradeoff.   Work done by the ball contacting the putting surface to begin spin comes only as a result of lost kinetic energy... which means you slowed the ball down to get it rolling.    When you go too far with your attempts to get the ball rolling more quickly, you rapidly lose distance control over a variety of putting surface conditions.  

18 holes at your local course are not carpet at the big box store and never will be.   Leave the marketing where it belongs... at the store.

From a PE in CE, this write up goes over the head of 99% of people

Yup... But marketing hits those 99%... Which is why it's so effective.

[the man with no aim]

Sorry for my ignorance when you all call it marketting but were I come from, if it smell like it, sounds like it and looks like it, we call it bullxxxx