Jump to content

Welcome, Guest. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Two pros want to change my grip, and i cant make it work


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 ahopkins13

ahopkins13

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 303 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 191924
  • Joined: 07/13/2012
  • Location:Ellsworth Kansas
  • Ebay ID:hopkinschevelle
GolfWRX Likes : 67

Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

I will first say i by no means think i know more than a golf pro. Now to my story.

I have taken a couple lessons from two different guys. Both want me to make my right hand grip more nuetral. I really tried hard to get used to it, i hit over a 100 balls(maybe closer to 200) almost everyday for several weeks and I just never got the hang of it.

I went to the lesson because i feel like my tempo, posture  and weight shift was off. Neither really addressed it even though it was the first thing i brought up. I felt like i was getting the 1 size fits all lesson.

So the other day i went back to my old grip, concentrated on my tempo and weight shift and was hittng the ball much better.

I find that i have to many swing thoughts but i am working on clearing them out.

My question is will i stunt my long term potential by sticking with my strong right hand grip? my left hand grip i have 2 knuckles showing and my thumb just slightly on the right part of the shaft. Which i was told is just fine. But i have been told i could go with 1 knuckle.

An older guy that i play with at the course said 1 thing wont work for everyone and to do what gets me the best results and that i can repeat consistantly.

Opinions?  Are there any pros that have a strong right hand grip that i could try to watch some video on?


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

#2 MDP1555

MDP1555

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 165719
  • Joined: 02/23/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 32

Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:24 PM

Bad grip leads to other issues in the swing. Not seeing your grip and address posture I will not comment on how it is . Rather I will say this a grip change is not a minor change it takes drill work and time with the drill work to implement it

The hardest thing for an instructor to do is correct something you do not want to correct. Just from what you wrote I get the sense your strong right hand grip is a crutch for other setup issues. It is what needs corrected first. Yes there are allowable variables to the grip. But if the intent is make your swing more efficient it is better to start with sound fundamentals and build on that than work around poor fundamentals.

Beaware any and all changes in what you are doing now requires dedicated work to make the changes instinctual and functional.

Stop and think about it. Two pros have told you that your grip needs to be more neutral. It will be up to you though to make the change. The pros can only instruct. You’re the student you are the one that actually makes it happen. Improving the efficiency of a students swing is an incremental task. It cannot be accomplished in a single session and cannot be accomplished by instruction alone. Practice, drill work patents and more drill work is the only way. And if you object to your instructors recommendations your instructor has no chance of being successful with you.

Your mind should not be cluttered with lots of swing thoughts. You should have a single specific task to work at this time. Then when proficient with that task your instructor will move you on to the next incremental stage. Outside commentary tends to slowdown advancement and plant confusion in your mind. Right now your pro is who should be feeding you info. That is if your are expecting him to help you. Be a student, ask questions take notes. but too many opinions will not likely help.

Edited by MDP1555, 02 November 2012 - 03:44 PM.


#3 MonteScheinblum

MonteScheinblum

    The Mad Bomber

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,307 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94238
  • Joined: 09/12/2009
  • Location:Southern California
GolfWRX Likes : 2619

Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:31 PM

It depends.

There are pros out there who have in mind one way of doing things and that strong right hand doesn't fit their view.

If that strong right hand puts you in a bad place.

I can't tell which of these two situations you are in.
Pulling the handle
I am so so steep
Shankopotomus finds me
.
.
I am Gavrilo Princip

#4 tofur99

tofur99

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 917 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 72700
  • Joined: 01/13/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 67

Posted 02 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

work the change in slowly.  Is your right hand like, separated from the left and way under or something extreme?

Just nestle your right hands lifeline onto your left thumb, wherever that is is fine.  You definitely want the two hands connected and working together, if your accomplishing that with your current grip then don't worry about it too much.

A picture could help us out a lot

#5 caryk

caryk

    Come to the dark side ... we have cookies!!! ;)

  • Charter Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 696 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 4000
  • Joined: 07/31/2005
GolfWRX Likes : 12

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:15 PM

Grip changes are always very hard to implement especially if you've used your current grip for so long.  If two pros independently thought you needed to change your grip then I'd at least try to do what they suggest.  Most golfers aren't aware of just how important a good grip is to their swing.  Get it wrong and you'll have to make compensations in other areas just to get good contact with the ball.  We tend to think it's always the backswing, downswing or impact that is causing the problem when in essence it could be our connection to the club.

I'll be the first to sympathize with you because I went through the same thing as you.  Struggled with my swing and thought it was my posture, swing plane or setup.  I wasted a lot of time trying fixes that only worked once or twice.  I was never consistent.  It was only out of pure athleticism that I was able to play as well as I did.  But once I fixed my grip, everything seemed to fall into place and the swing got soooo much easier.

My suggestion would be to NOT hit balls while you're working on the grip change but rather just take a club and swing it to get comfortable with how the new grip feels without the pressure of seeing ball flight or contact.  My guess is that if you do that, you'll be able to ease into it and start to see some improvements in your swing.  When I worked on my grip change, I made a really short club for myself (about 16" long) just so I could concentrate on the grip and how it felt.

Give the grip change a chance.  You might be pleasantly surprised by the positive effect it has on your swing.  Good luck!!!

Edited by caryk, 03 November 2012 - 07:17 PM.


#6 MadGolfer76

MadGolfer76

    Admiration is the state furthest from understanding.

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 12,628 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89700
  • Joined: 07/26/2009
  • Location:Maine
  • Handicap:4.8
GolfWRX Likes : 3290

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:24 PM

There is "strong/good" and "strong/bad." If you look down at your grip and see a lot of fingers showing, you likely need to work on it, but there is nothing inherently wrong about a stronger grip unless your trailing hand is significantly under the grip and disconnected from your lead hand.

Couples and Duval have strong grips. They also have a lot of rotation and seem to hold off the rotation a bit through impact. Might be worth studying how they make it work.
Mizuno Mp 650 9.5/Whiteboard 73x
Mizuno Mp 650 15/Aldila Vs Proto 80x
Mizuno Mp 650 19, 22/Aldila Vs Proto 95x
Mizuno Mp 53 4-pw/PX 6.5 Satin Prototype
Mizuno Mp T5 52, 58/DG x100 (8i)
Odyssey Tank #7
WITB Link

#7 SunkTheBirdie

SunkTheBirdie

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,538 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 129830
  • Joined: 05/30/2011
  • Location:with my F100 @ the range
GolfWRX Likes : 46

Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:51 PM

Take pictures of the two grips ... let's look at them.

#8 ahopkins13

ahopkins13

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 303 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 191924
  • Joined: 07/13/2012
  • Location:Ellsworth Kansas
  • Ebay ID:hopkinschevelle
GolfWRX Likes : 67

Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:04 AM

sorry meant to post back sooner,

The same day i posted this i went to the range and tried it my way again....... struggled a lot.

So I went back to the proper grip recommended to me by the two pros. Took a few swings but i hit some nice shots. Still hit some duffs but it reinforced what a lot of you are saying. Its going to take time and i know ultimately it will make me a better golfer which is what i want.

Ill try to take some pics of the two grips tomorrow and you guys can weigh in.

I forgot to mention before that my first pro was trying to get me to have a cupped left wrist. He was recommending a pretty cupped wrist. I mellowed it out some and it didnt feel so awkward when i started my down swing. He had me start my back swing and stop at the top, look up at my  hand position then down swing. I generally had good results with this but when i try to do a normal swing its still a struggle. Ill get it . will just take some work

#9 Thrillhouse

Thrillhouse

    EVERYTHING'S COMING UP THRILLHOUSE!

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,380 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 140851
  • Joined: 10/02/2011
  • Location:Canada
GolfWRX Likes : 2047

Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:19 AM

Thrillhouse: I can't stand this new pro! He's always trying to adjust my stance!

Friend: he's just trying to help your game man.

Thrillhouse: but I was using the urinal at the time!

#10 pgagreg1

pgagreg1

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 568 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 123073
  • Joined: 02/26/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 66

Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:33 AM

View Postahopkins13, on 02 November 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

My question is will i stunt my long term potential by sticking with my strong right hand grip? my left hand grip i have 2 knuckles showing and my thumb just slightly on the right part of the shaft. Which i was told is just fine. But i have been told i could go with 1 knuckle.



For your 2 hands to work together your palms should face each other.
The crease between your thumbs and your hands should be parallel to each other.
There should be a crease as your thumb should be touching your hand, not a gap between your thumb and hand. If there is a gap you have the shaft to far into your palm.
If your left thumb is at 12:30 and right thumb is at 3:00 they won't work together the best that they can.

Take this test, grip a club with your hands in a neutral position ( both thumbs 12:00) and left the clubhead straight up and down towards your nose. Notice how far you can bend your wrist.
Now take the test with your grip. Can you get the same amount of wrist bend? This bending action of a golfers wrist is the lever that provides clubhead speed that leads to distance.

You can take the test with a strong grip with both hands. Turn your left hand to match up with your right. While you won't be able to bend your wrist as far straight up and down, during a golf swing you will be able to set your wrist the same as the neutral grip.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

Remove This Advertisement GolfWRX

GolfWRX

    Team Golfwrx

  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  

Viewing GolfWRX as Guest

Hide these ads and more. Join GolfWRX. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.




#11 RBImGuy

RBImGuy

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,028 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 30615
  • Joined: 06/03/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 63

Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:43 AM

View Postahopkins13, on 02 November 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I will first say i by no means think i know more than a golf pro. Now to my story.

I have taken a couple lessons from two different guys. Both want me to make my right hand grip more nuetral. I really tried hard to get used to it, i hit over a 100 balls(maybe closer to 200) almost everyday for several weeks and I just never got the hang of it.

I went to the lesson because i feel like my tempo, posture  and weight shift was off. Neither really addressed it even though it was the first thing i brought up. I felt like i was getting the 1 size fits all lesson.

So the other day i went back to my old grip, concentrated on my tempo and weight shift and was hittng the ball much better.

I find that i have to many swing thoughts but i am working on clearing them out.

My question is will i stunt my long term potential by sticking with my strong right hand grip? my left hand grip i have 2 knuckles showing and my thumb just slightly on the right part of the shaft. Which i was told is just fine. But i have been told i could go with 1 knuckle.

An older guy that i play with at the course said 1 thing wont work for everyone and to do what gets me the best results and that i can repeat consistantly.

Opinions?  Are there any pros that have a strong right hand grip that i could try to watch some video on?

if the Pro hands on dont make you hit better shots, I wouldnt take a lesson from them.
I only hit it straight
Feeling of Greatness
More of the same

#12 Kadin 25

Kadin 25

    BIG K

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 6,120 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132451
  • Joined: 07/06/2011
  • Location:On The Green
GolfWRX Likes : 1810

Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:59 AM

Tiger once said "If it feels wrong then I know I'm doing it right"

Like everyone above said, any change is hard and feels horrible at first. When it comes to a grip change (viewed by some as a minor adjustment) "new, corrected" can feel down right rancid at first.

Stick with it my friend, nothing is ever easy when it comes to changes in your setup or swing, even when its just a "minor" grip adjustment. ;)

            Featured Writer For GolfWRX.com
                Editor Product Reviews
                Product Tester/Review Panel
                Winner TMag Naples Trip 2012
                See ya on the green...Kadin


#13 inmens

inmens

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 798 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 55261
  • Joined: 05/06/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 9

Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:55 AM

View PostKadin 25, on 04 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Tiger once said "If it feels wrong then I know I'm doing it right"

Thats Tiger. If I feel wrong results are disastrous.

#14 Kadin 25

Kadin 25

    BIG K

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 6,120 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132451
  • Joined: 07/06/2011
  • Location:On The Green
GolfWRX Likes : 1810

Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:59 PM

View Postinmens, on 04 November 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

View PostKadin 25, on 04 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Tiger once said "If it feels wrong then I know I'm doing it right"

Thats Tiger. If I feel wrong results are disastrous.
LOL, the point I was making is change no matter how small, always feels wrong or uncomfortable at first.

            Featured Writer For GolfWRX.com
                Editor Product Reviews
                Product Tester/Review Panel
                Winner TMag Naples Trip 2012
                See ya on the green...Kadin


#15 Mike Divot

Mike Divot

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 156 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 181510
  • Joined: 05/17/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 40

Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:27 AM

To the OP: read what Bradley Hughes has to say about the grip.
http://bradleyhughes...com/Page_7.html


#16 V-twin

V-twin

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 621 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117209
  • Joined: 11/08/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 15

Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:46 AM

The grip change I went through was one of the most difficult changes I have ever made.  It is all for the better in the end more consistant shots will come. Like all have said everything falls into place and you start to understand the flow of the golf swing. It starts with how you are connected to the golf club your grip.  Very important, my grip is the same as the late Mr. Nelson taught and used so who am I to doubt it. Its like starting over kind of fun in the end and will build confidence.
Covert 2.0 Tour Diamana B 70-X,
Xhot 3 Deep 14.5 Project X 6.0
Xhot Pro Hybrid 16,18 Project X 6.5
Callaway Razr MB 4-P 6.0 Project X
TaylorMade Ghost Spider S Putter
VR X3X Wedge 56, CG10 50 gap wedge

#17 Daniel Eason

Daniel Eason

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,250 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119644
  • Joined: 12/31/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 98

Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:25 AM

I've gone through grip changes, they aint easy and are probably the biggest muscle rep you change!

I suspect (remember i've not seen a vid) but they want you to neutralise as the grip is a root cause of a bigger problem, i.e. pulling the club inside on the takeaway.

Best thing I found for a grip change was one of these http://www.amazon.co...=&hvptwo==

#18 kellygreen

kellygreen

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,380 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 126874
  • Joined: 04/17/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 1202

Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:10 AM

View Postahopkins13, on 02 November 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I will first say i by no means think i know more than a golf pro. Now to my story.

I have taken a couple lessons from two different guys. Both want me to make my right hand grip more nuetral. I really tried hard to get used to it, i hit over a 100 balls(maybe closer to 200) almost everyday for several weeks and I just never got the hang of it.

I went to the lesson because i feel like my tempo, posture  and weight shift was off. Neither really addressed it even though it was the first thing i brought up. I felt like i was getting the 1 size fits all lesson.

So the other day i went back to my old grip, concentrated on my tempo and weight shift and was hittng the ball much better.

I find that i have to many swing thoughts but i am working on clearing them out.

My question is will i stunt my long term potential by sticking with my strong right hand grip? my left hand grip i have 2 knuckles showing and my thumb just slightly on the right part of the shaft. Which i was told is just fine. But i have been told i could go with 1 knuckle.

An older guy that i play with at the course said 1 thing wont work for everyone and to do what gets me the best results and that i can repeat consistantly.

Opinions?  Are there any pros that have a strong right hand grip that i could try to watch some video on?

If you have a genuine "2-knuckle" grip, then that is NOT a truly "strong" grip.  

Most people would consider that "neutral"...or at least well-within the accepted range of fundamentally sound grips.    A one-knuckle grip is a Hogan-style WEAK grip...and I would NOT adopt that as your grip unless you simply cannot keep from hooking the ball any other way.

As to whether or not to change your grip, let your ballflight be your guide at this point. (IOW, the old guy is telling you right).   As long as the ball is flying reasonably straight (or with a predictable curve)...and your grip is within the range of fundamentally-sound...then there is no reason to change your grip.

It sounds like you ARE getting a "one-size-fits-all" lesson with a pro who is trying to make you look like HIS idea of the perfect swing...rather than working with you and finding the motion and fundamentals that get you your best results.
PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

#19 MDP1555

MDP1555

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 165719
  • Joined: 02/23/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 32

Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:20 PM

In the original post the poster indicated that two pros wanted to weaken his grip I read nothing that indicated either pro was teaching a one grip fits all curriculum.

In the second post the OP indicated one of the pros wanted a cupped wrist on the down swing. I assume a forward cup to create shaft lean as opposed to a reverse cup. This forward cup has little to to with strong or weak grip but rather forward shaft lean. Still nothing that indicates "one grip fits all" curriculum”

My assumption is that the pro is attempting to correct issues in a sequential order starting at the grip as should be done. The trick is having the dedication to stay with the instruction.

#20 HoosierMizuno

HoosierMizuno

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,673 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 87620
  • Joined: 07/06/2009
  • Handicap:4.2
GolfWRX Likes : 238

Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:56 PM

i took lessons from a pro who said the hardest thing about being an instructor is when students don't make a change they recommend because they don't instantly start hitting the ball better. they'd rather be comfortable than get better.

two pros recommended a better/different grip and instead you'd rather take the advice of an older guy at the club. sometimes a swing has to get worse to get better.

i think a lot of guys are ok sticking with what they have and playing average golf rather than spend several weeks playing bad golf in an attempt to eventually break through to the next level.

Adams Fast 12 LS 10.5* W/ Fubuki S
TM Stage 2 Tour 3HL TP w/ Matrix RUL 80
Cobra Amp Cell 2-3 Hybrid 18*
TM Speedblades 4-PW, AW KBS TOUR S
TM ATV 54* and 58*
SeeMore mFGP2 34"

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

Remove This Advertisement GolfWRX

GolfWRX

    Team Golfwrx

  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  

Viewing GolfWRX as Guest

Hide these ads and more. Join GolfWRX. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.




#21 farmer

farmer

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 3,765 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 70095
  • Joined: 12/02/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 459

Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:29 PM

I had to change my grip after an accident with my left hand.  I found it easier to make the change hitting into a net, so that I didn't get so caught up in ball flight.  An old teacher of mine told me that if any pro starts anywhere but with the grip, he's wasting your time.  That was where Jack Grout started with Jack Nicklaus when they had their yearly tune up.

#22 kellygreen

kellygreen

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,380 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 126874
  • Joined: 04/17/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 1202

Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

View Postfarmer, on 05 November 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

I had to change my grip after an accident with my left hand.  I found it easier to make the change hitting into a net, so that I didn't get so caught up in ball flight.  An old teacher of mine told me that if any pro starts anywhere but with the grip, he's wasting your time.  That was where Jack Grout started with Jack Nicklaus when they had their yearly tune up.

If the student has a poor grip....absolutely.   Harvey Penick used to say that if you've got a poor grip you don't want a good swing, and vice-versa.

But there is a wide range of grips that are fundamentally sound, and you don't to foist a grip change on a player with a sound grip simply because it isn't perfectly neutral.    People are built differently, and insisting that everyone play with a neutral grip will leave many people hitting the ball sideways for the rest of their golfing lives.
PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

#23 MDP1555

MDP1555

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 165719
  • Joined: 02/23/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 32

Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

First off it is impossible for any of us to assume we know where the pro or pros are taking the OP. We were not there for the lesson or lessons.

I have never run into a situation where starting at neutral was a bad place to start. Sometimes you can't see all problems until you get the student and position 1. In all my years I have never run into a single player where a strong or weak grip was a requirement to allow them to swing a club efficiently. I have run into dozens that thought it was but really only used an off neutral grip to compensate for something else they do later in the swing which is fine is some cases. I’m not saying everyone must play with a neutral grip. I’m saying neutral is the best starting point to help a new student in almost all cases.

The idea that everyone is different is not quite true the majorly vast majority of humans are made up of the same skeletal and muscle proportions just at different scale factors. There are exception but they are far more rare than what everyone seems to imply.

Lastly for those taking lessons to learn an efficient swing; getting 10 to 90 internet and otherwise solicited opinions while in the lesson process is a really the worst thing you can do, in particularly in the early stages. You can’t have two swing teachers at the same time unless they are exactly on the same page. You will only end up cluttering your thought processes with “well this guy says this and this pro says this”. Soon you find you got nowhere really fast if not lost further than you were to start with. If you take lessons let the pro teach avoid outside opinion be a student of that pro, not a sponge to every outside opinion that passes your way.

Edited by MDP1555, 05 November 2012 - 04:18 PM.


#24 kellygreen

kellygreen

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,380 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 126874
  • Joined: 04/17/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 1202

Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostMDP1555, on 05 November 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

First off it is impossible for any of us to assume we know where the pro or pros are taking the OP. We were not there for the lesson or lessons.

I have never run into a situation where starting at neutral was a bad place to start. Sometimes you can't see all problems until you get the student and position 1. In all my years I have never run into a single player where a strong or weak grip was a requirement to allow them to swing a club efficiently. I have run into dozens that thought it was but really only used an off neutral grip to compensate for something else they do later in the swing which is fine is some cases. I’m not saying everyone must play with a neutral grip. I’m saying neutral is the best starting point to help a new student in almost all cases.

The idea that everyone is different is not quite true the majorly vast majority of humans are made up of the same skeletal and muscle proportions just at different scale factors. There are exception but they are far more rare than what everyone seems to imply.

Lastly for those taking lessons to learn an efficient swing; getting 10 to 90 internet and otherwise solicited opinions while in the lesson process is a really the worst thing you can do, in particularly in the early stages. You can’t have two swing teachers at the same time unless they are exactly on the same page. You will only end up cluttering your thought processes with “well this guy says this and this pro says this”. Soon you find you got nowhere really fast if not lost further than you were to start with. If you take lessons let the pro teach avoid outside opinion be a student of that pro, not a sponge to every outside opinion that passes your way.

There is a difference between a swing that is "efficient"...and one that allows the student to play their BEST golf.

I had an "efficient" swing as a two-plane swinger for years.   The problem was that I couldn't TIME it from day to day, in order to play consistent golf.   So I had to change swing methods in order to play may best.
PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

#25 dogsbe

dogsbe

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 143425
  • Joined: 10/20/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 22

Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:31 PM

Yes, I went through all of this grip change.  I have a strong grip and if I had a lesson and the first thing they told me was to change the grip, I would flat out refuse.  However, if they changes some other bit of my swing and my club head was no longer being delivered squared to the ball, then that is a different matter.  

What have l learned?  Basically, it is important to be able to swing a neutral grip and this takes a good 1000 balls.  Now my pro can make swing changes and I can quickly adjust my grip to deliver the club square to the ball.  So, it gives a whole level of flexibility.

In play, I use a strong grip on my drive because I want to target the right side and draw the ball.  However, I use a neutral grip with my wedges because I want to take dead aim. There are other difference in setup, but the grip changes is important.


#26 MDP1555

MDP1555

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 165719
  • Joined: 02/23/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 32

Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:31 PM

With all good natured intent and respect for your opinion I have to ask;

"Play their best" as opposed to what? I don’t try to turn club players into tour players. Give me a break! Like with all things there are degrees of efficiency.

I kind of took from what you stated that you suggest a pro should teach based on the best a high handicapper can do with the swing they have when they come to you despite the fact they came to me to learn to swing more efficiently. If this is the case you want me  or other pros to concede right out the gate and tell a player that comes to me and books lessons that the best thing I could do for him is to not change anything but yet make him better? Exactly what is that process?

So you had a two plane swing that you thought was efficient yet you could not time it from day to day. Well then I propose to you that it was not efficient at all because an efficient swing is repeatable by trained muscle memory. if you are making a concoius effort to try to time any event in the swing you are wasting energy, or if it  works one day and not the next then it is not efficent.

An efficient swing is one you can repeat with ease because you got into good positions from the get go and one that wastes the least amount of energy in order to create the most amounts of energy transfer and control. The degree of efficiency will vary from player to player. Like I said I’m not talking about trying to turn a high handicapper into a tour pro here. I’m talking about helping them build a fundamental foundation they can grow with.

That said I would think you are intelligent enough to have deduced that prior to your reply So I assume you don’t much like teaching pro teaching good fundamentals or or just don’t like us in general. Either way I am sorry you feel that way I assure you every teaching pros intent is to show a player how to play better.

Edited by MDP1555, 05 November 2012 - 05:51 PM.


#27 MadGolfer76

MadGolfer76

    Admiration is the state furthest from understanding.

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 12,628 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89700
  • Joined: 07/26/2009
  • Location:Maine
  • Handicap:4.8
GolfWRX Likes : 3290

Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

View PostThrillhouse, on 04 November 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

Thrillhouse: I can't stand this new pro! He's always trying to adjust my stance!

Friend: he's just trying to help your game man.

Thrillhouse: but I was using the urinal at the time!

Possible resonses:

1) At least he didn't show you a new grip.

2) At least he didn't adjust your aim for you.

3) Did he show you how to "waggle?"

4)

...I'd better stop.
Mizuno Mp 650 9.5/Whiteboard 73x
Mizuno Mp 650 15/Aldila Vs Proto 80x
Mizuno Mp 650 19, 22/Aldila Vs Proto 95x
Mizuno Mp 53 4-pw/PX 6.5 Satin Prototype
Mizuno Mp T5 52, 58/DG x100 (8i)
Odyssey Tank #7
WITB Link

#28 kellygreen

kellygreen

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,380 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 126874
  • Joined: 04/17/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 1202

Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:13 AM

View PostMDP1555, on 05 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

With all good natured intent and respect for your opinion I have to ask;

"Play their best" as opposed to what? I don’t try to turn club players into tour players. Give me a break! Like with all things there are degrees of efficiency.

I kind of took from what you stated that you suggest a pro should teach based on the best a high handicapper can do with the swing they have when they come to you despite the fact they came to me to learn to swing more efficiently. If this is the case you want me  or other pros to concede right out the gate and tell a player that comes to me and books lessons that the best thing I could do for him is to not change anything but yet make him better? Exactly what is that process?

So you had a two plane swing that you thought was efficient yet you could not time it from day to day. Well then I propose to you that it was not efficient at all because an efficient swing is repeatable by trained muscle memory. if you are making a concoius effort to try to time any event in the swing you are wasting energy, or if it  works one day and not the next then it is not efficent.

An efficient swing is one you can repeat with ease because you got into good positions from the get go and one that wastes the least amount of energy in order to create the most amounts of energy transfer and control. The degree of efficiency will vary from player to player. Like I said I’m not talking about trying to turn a high handicapper into a tour pro here. I’m talking about helping them build a fundamental foundation they can grow with.

That said I would think you are intelligent enough to have deduced that prior to your reply So I assume you don’t much like teaching pro teaching good fundamentals or or just don’t like us in general. Either way I am sorry you feel that way I assure you every teaching pros intent is to show a player how to play better.

With all due respect, it is easy to be correct, when you get to define terms in ways that automatically make one so. I do not accept that there is only ONE way to correctly swing  a golf club or only one set of speficially correct fundamentals.  There is a RANGE of what is fundamentally correct...and certain sets of fundamentals tend to match up to certain ways of swinging the club.

An efficient swing is one that delivers power to the ball in a fashion that maximizes energy transfer.  A swing with a flippy releease, or a chicken-winged left arm is an inefficient motion.   TIMING and repeatability is a manifestation of balance between athletic ability and swing method. You can teach me to swing EXACTLY like Luke Donald...but he will still hit the ball better than I could because he has a degree of natural rhythm, timing and small-muscle coordination that I lack.   JIm Furyk's address and backswing is HIGHLY idiosyncratic...but is one of the most repeatable motions in the game of golf today, because of Furyk's sheer athleticism.  Lee Westwood hits more fairways and greens than Bubba Watson or Phil Mickelson because he uses a swing method that is not as dependant upon the small-muscles to square up the club-face at impact...and therefore is less-timing dependant from day-to-day.

As Jim Hardy paraphrase Jim Hardy, there are different ways to get to repeatability.  One is to not have a great deal of athletic ability (be a "dog"), but have a very fundamentally sound technique that minimizes the need for timing (Lee Westwood).   The other is to simply have a great deal of athletic ability (be a 'cat') and simply master the timing requirements of the swing motion you use.  Like Fred Couples, Jim Furyk,  and Bubba Watson do.

Most devastatingly, is when you get a tremendous athlete (cat) who also develops a very sound technique...but then you are in Tiger Woods and Rory McIlroy territory.


The fact of the matter is that my two swings were EQUALLY efficient.  I can hit the ball JUST as far swinging as two-planer as I can a one-planer.  But the one-plane swing---and the body-release---are a better match to my athletic strengths.   So I am more accurate, and I can play more consistently from day to day playing this way.  Because this method doesn't call for a lot of forearm rotation through the hitting area.   Which I lack the athletic ability to time on a day-in and day-out basis to play to the level that I wish to play.  Even if you got me to cultivate a swing that looked like Tow Watson's.

Bottomline, I am a better ball-striker as a one-plane swinger than I was as a two-planer because that swing method is a better match to the talents that I bring to the game.  Not because my one plane swing is more "efficient" than my two-plane swing was.

My point is that different people come to the game with different talents.  Different strengths...and different weaknesses....and as long as they come with a grip that is within the acceptable RANGE of what is fundamentally sound. (1.5-3 knuckles on the left hand) that any adjustments to their grip should be based upon what it is that they are trying to do with their swing, and what their ballflight is doing.

IOW, it makes no sense to take someone who is a slicer with a 3-knuckle grip on his left hand...and neutralize his grip.   The first thing that you need to do with him is fix swing path problems, and teach him to release the club properly.   Once he can do that...if there is a problem with the ball going to the left...THEN set about altering his grip to correct that problem.

In my case, fortunately, I had a teacher who took the approach of tailoring the swing she was teaching me to those things that I could do well athletically.  (IOW, she leveraged my athletic ability and years of playing baseball at a high level...and turned me from a two planer to a one-planer)  Or as I heard one of her partners say on the range one day to a student (and it brought a huge smile to my face) "There are lots of different ways to swing a golf club well.  My job is to find the right set of fundamentals, right combination of swing keys and swing feels necessary to get you to have a swing that unfolds in a fundamentally sound fashion."

When I heard him say that, all I could do was think to myself, "YESSSS!!!!".

Edited by kellygreen, 06 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors