287 replies to this topic

[Bottlenosedolphin]

I dont support the ban, however i think that when getting a club length to make a drop you shouldn't be allowed to use your 60" broomstick.

[Jamboy72]

Um...who is using a 60" putter??? ....

[Zunes]

tembolo1284, on 02 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

don't ban the club, ban the technique. Even Yao Ming likes golf...you can't expect the poor chap to play with a 35 inch putter.

Agree. Ban it.
It is never too late to do the right thing.
Anchoring allows you to remove part of the challenge of swinging a club. It lessens or removes the need to control club rotation. Might as well use a golf ball firing gun then all you need to decide is distance and direction.

[leadfoot_mf]

should be a third choice for not caring one way or other.  i guess that would be a no then.

[dpark]

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 01 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I believe that anchoring a club against in body in a location other than your hands is in conflict with the intent and spirit of the rules of Golf.

+1

[Jamboy72]

dpark, on 10 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 01 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I believe that anchoring a club against in body in a location other than your hands is in conflict with the intent and spirit of the rules of Golf.

+1

I'm very interested to know how anyone alive today can know what the intent and spirt of the game is.  I did get a text from Old Tom Morris saying something about how awful it is to see people hitting the ball so high in the air...always felt the game was supposed to be played along the ground...

[Bottlenosedolphin]

topekareal, on 10 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

dpark, on 10 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 01 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I believe that anchoring a club against in body in a location other than your hands is in conflict with the intent and spirit of the rules of Golf.

+1

I'm very interested to know how anyone alive today can know what the intent and spirt of the game is.  I did get a text from Old Tom Morris saying something about how awful it is to see people hitting the ball so high in the air...always felt the game was supposed to be played along the ground...

To reiterate...the original intent of the game did not include women, people of color, and poor people.  If we went by your logic we should also ban those previously stated.

[dlam]

Zunes, on 09 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

tembolo1284, on 02 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

don't ban the club, ban the technique. Even Yao Ming likes golf...you can't expect the poor chap to play with a 35 inch putter.

Agree. Ban it.
It is never too late to do the right thing.
Anchoring allows you to remove part of the challenge of swinging a club. It lessens or removes the need to control club rotation. Might as well use a golf ball firing gun then all you need to decide is distance and direction.

Exactly,
Fat people can use a 35 standard putter like a belly putter
Midgets can use a 35 " putter like a sternum putter too.

[threetoehoek]

Answer:   No

Reasoning:  I can't putt with them and I can putt with a literal broomstick so they must not be THAT helpful.

[ej002]

dlam, on 01 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

R&A and USGA get ready for class action from guys on the tour that use long putters for their livihood

On what grounds?  The R&A and USGA's job is to determine the rules of the game.  The can say what they please regarding anchoring.  This is very different than the Casey Martin thing - he had federal protection under the Americans with Disabilities Act and even that case was a stretch and very limited in its decision.

[nbg352]

Bottlenosedolphin, on 10 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

topekareal, on 10 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

dpark, on 10 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 01 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I believe that anchoring a club against in body in a location other than your hands is in conflict with the intent and spirit of the rules of Golf.

+1

I'm very interested to know how anyone alive today can know what the intent and spirt of the game is.  I did get a text from Old Tom Morris saying something about how awful it is to see people hitting the ball so high in the air...always felt the game was supposed to be played along the ground...

To reiterate...the original intent of the game did not include women, people of color, and poor people.  If we went by your logic we should also ban those previously stated.

What an interesting definition of what the spirit was. Using discrimination, rather than how the game is played and with what tools, to validate yourself.  Ummmm...BIG fail!

[Pepperturbo]

Bottlenosedolphin, on 10 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

topekareal, on 10 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

dpark, on 10 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 01 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I believe that anchoring a club against in body in a location other than your hands is in conflict with the intent and spirit of the rules of Golf.

+1

I'm very interested to know how anyone alive today can know what the intent and spirt of the game is.  I did get a text from Old Tom Morris saying something about how awful it is to see people hitting the ball so high in the air...always felt the game was supposed to be played along the ground...

To reiterate...the original intent of the game did not include women, people of color, and poor people.  If we went by your logic we should also ban those previously stated.

You're so historically wrong I struggle comprehending the historical extent.  There was no period intentions associated with your assumption.

[kellygreen]

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

[CheckJV]

I voted NO.

Show me the numbers!  If any ruling body of golf wants to limit anchored putting then they need to show that it provides a statistically significant advantage.

Any other reason for a ban is just someone's "feelings" which is not justification for a rule change.

[Pepperturbo]

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

For the most part, you're assumptions are wrong.  I wish there was more to argue, but, for some reason, stating "why" misses you.

[nbg352]

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

For the most part, you're assumptions are wrong.  I wish there was more to argue, but, for some reason, stating "why" misses you.

I think his "assumptions" are quite valid. Perhaps being in denial makes it difficult for you to see that, though.....

[kellygreen]

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

For the most part, you're assumptions are wrong.  I wish there was more to argue, but, for some reason, stating "why" misses you.

...and for the most part I disagree with your OPINIONS.

That is why "stating why"...."misses" me.

I don't accept your beliefs and opinions as facts.

..and no one who is in favor of banning these putters has presented a single...GENUINE...objective fact in support of their assertions.

Edited by kellygreen, 13 November 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Jamboy72]

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

For the most part, you're assumptions are wrong.  I wish there was more to argue, but, for some reason, stating "why" misses you.

Which assumptions?  Seems pretty spot on to me....I'd love to hear some specific and detailed responses Pepper, rather than esoteric rhetoric...

[BDoubleG]

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 01 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I believe that anchoring a club against in body in a location other than your hands is in conflict with the intent and spirit of the rules of Golf.

I know I'm chiming in a bit late on this comment, but I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyway.

First of all, I can't stand it when people refer to "the spirit of the game". If you can go back 500 years and speak with the Scottish folk about how they envisioned it, great....if not, this is absolutely a moot point (more on this later).

My other issue is that, while I'm relatively young, and have not been around long enough to experience these constant waves of golf luddites, I have read time and time again about them. I do remember when drivers started getting larger in size (my friends and I used to refer to my TaylorMade 360Ti as "the dinner plate") used to garner criticism from people who thought it was "against the spirit of the game", and swore that they would never give in to that fad...now look at us.

I'm not saying that everyone will switch to a long putter, nor should they. I play a 34" putter, and I probably always will. However, I don't think it goes against the game in any way.

I don't mean anything personal by singling you out here, Rock Chalk, but since you did make this statement, let's take a look at your gear. Three things really stick out to me, as things that would take away from the "spirit of the game" as a long putter would:

Taylormade Rocketballz 15 deg, Matrix Ozik s - This club not only has a graphite shaft in it, which is far-removed from the hickory or even steel days of old, but it has a special slot in it, which allows it to be hit further than your average fairway wood. Yes, there are COR rules in place to prevent this from getting out of hand, but I think a true "purist" would see this as a cheap trick to gein yards you didn't earn, and wouldn't be caught dead with one. That's their decision, but, since the option is available, you chose to take it...the trade off is similar to that of a long putter: you gain forgiveness and yardage, but you'll likely lose some distance control, and with the added length, your misses will be worse misses.


Ping S56 - 2, 5-PW, x100 - When the golfers from the days of olde played, they used what were essentially the blades of today. While the S-56 is more blade-like then, say, my mp-53s, they still offer some help. While I may be a little off on my product features, as I recall, there is progressive weighting in the S-56 in order to get the ball in the air on the long irons (As I say, I'll happily correct myself if I'm wrong here). Again, there's a trade-off: this extra help gives you a wee bit more forgiveness, while probably taking away some workability. What do you think our golfing forefathers would say about this type of "help"? I can just hear it now: "ye'll no' be seen' me needen' help from me ir'ns, thank yeh' verrry much!"...definitely against the spirit of the game (note, for my mp-53s and anything more of the game-improvement variety, this applies x10)

Pro V1x - This is the one that REALLY irks me. Look at my sig...I play urethane balls as well; can't blame you, but we've come a LONG way from the feather-filled, leather-wrapped balls from the days of yore. If anything has taken away from the "spirit of the game", it's these suckers. You can stop short shots on a dime, but can still keep spin low when crushing it down the fairway. When the groove rule came into play, I just shook my head, as I thought a ball rule would make much more sense. However, it would no longer allow OEMs to sell urethane balls at $50/dozen, and the groove rule basically led to a whole slew of golfers rushing out to buy new, conforming equipment...it was basically a win-win for the industry. But, alas, there's no rule against playing these beauts, and I'll take any advantage I can get, so I'll tee them up, same as you.

Finally, I can't stress enough how I agree with the article posted here a little while ago about the contradiction of efforts like "play it forward" to grow the approachability of the game, while simultaneously thinking about banning a piece of equipment used by a lot of players at every level. Sure, you can just ban them in the pro divisions, but it will still have an immense affect on the game at large; there's a reason pro endorsements often impact sales...the public wants to play what the pros play.

At the end of it all, I just think it's silly to want to ban something because it's against some hallowed "spirit of the game", which is something anyone has really yet to define. This isn't the ERC driver we're talking about...this is something that a huge number of players are comfortable with, and changing this rule could be a detriment to their outlook of the game. In my opinion, just leave it alone and let everyone interpret their golf "spirit" as they see fit.

Edited by BDoubleG, 13 November 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[Pepperturbo]

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

For the most part, you're assumptions are wrong.  I wish there was more to argue, but, for some reason, stating "why" misses you.

...and for the most part I disagree with your OPINIONS.

That is why "stating why"...."misses" me.

I don't accept your beliefs and opinions as facts.

..and no one who is in favor of banning these putters has presented a single...GENUINE...objective fact in support of their assertions.

Fine - we agree to disagree without insulting each others intelligence.  PS - you and others haven't presented anything to speak of that warrants not banning them... so its even.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 13 November 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[nbg352]

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

For the most part, you're assumptions are wrong.  I wish there was more to argue, but, for some reason, stating "why" misses you.

...and for the most part I disagree with your OPINIONS.

That is why "stating why"...."misses" me.

I don't accept your beliefs and opinions as facts.

..and no one who is in favor of banning these putters has presented a single...GENUINE...objective fact in support of their assertions.

Fine - we agree to disagree without insulting each others intelligence.  PS - you and others haven't presented anything to speak of that warrants not banning them... so its even.

You see, there's the rub. The folks against a ban have been saying all along that there is no proof / evidence on either side of this issue. Believe me, the belly putter users are doing their absolute best to prove your case for you by trying to obliterate putting stats as we know them, but to date they have not. And we know that those pro- banners have been scrambling to try to find the evidence that will support their position. Neither side has succeeded here. Putting stats are pretty normal and there is still no recorded evidence that would support a ban.
Which brings us right back to square one. Why are they being banned? Because some  people in a position of power do not like them and want them gone. Unfortunately it's what this whole issue centers around. Not liking something and making it disappear.And not having the guts to admit that's the only reason they are doing it.

[Jamboy72]

I guess the fact they've been around for ages and have no quantifiable proof of any advantage aren't viable positions?  Not to mention that every player can use one if they want to....


Agreed NBG...if they would just admit it has nothing to do with anything other than not liking something and wanting to change it simply because they can, it would be easier to understand...but this entire conversation has never been about honesty or rational thinking...

[Zunes]

I am curious what the "stats" are that you guys are referring to?  Long putter users vs short putter users? If so, that is useless. The only stat that would be meaniful is how the same golfer puts with long vs short putter?

[BDoubleG]

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 13 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am against banning them because:

1. They offer no advantage over any of half-dozen other techniques that are used to "quiet" the hands in a putting stroke.   There is no objective basis to single out just one of these techniques as being "unfair" while permitting other techniques that achieve the same result.

2. What advantage they do offer----greater stability over short putts---is offset by less feel and less stability over medium and long putts.

Let's get real here.

There is only one HONEST reason why people are so hot-and-bothered to ban these putter: they don't like how they look, and they don't like who is using them to win tournaments.   When long putters were just limited to being used by yippy middle-aged touring pros looking to hold onto their games, and there was a stigma attached to using one....everyone was willing to let these "poor souls" keep their crutch.

But now that younger players no longer see any stigma in their use, and just see them as another equipment OPTION to be considered and used...and they are winning BIG tournaments with them....ALL OF A SUDDEN these same putters have become an "intolerable" problem.

Please.

If this were really about "principle" these things would have been banned years ago...and famous yippers like Berhard Langer and Vijay Singh would have had to find other means of employment.

For the most part, you're assumptions are wrong.  I wish there was more to argue, but, for some reason, stating "why" misses you.

...and for the most part I disagree with your OPINIONS.

That is why "stating why"...."misses" me.

I don't accept your beliefs and opinions as facts.

..and no one who is in favor of banning these putters has presented a single...GENUINE...objective fact in support of their assertions.

Fine - we agree to disagree without insulting each others intelligence.  PS - you and others haven't presented anything to speak of that warrants not banning them... so its even.

See, even isn't enough. As would be the case with any legislation passed in the real world, the onus is on those moving to pass the new law/rule to show why it is necessary. If all the anti-long putter crowd has is "even", then there's clearly not enough evidence for the rules to be changed.

Edited by BDoubleG, 14 November 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[kellygreen]

Pepperturbo, on 13 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

Fine - we agree to disagree without insulting each others intelligence.  PS - you and others haven't presented anything to speak of that warrants not banning them... so its even.

In your opinion....and you are misplacing the burden of proof.

Right now the long putters are legal.  The onus is not upon those of us who support this status quo to prove that long putters are NOT harmful to the game (as if one could ever prove a negative).

The onus/burden of proof is on those who wish to alter this status quo---and ban these putters---to show WHY it is necessary to do so in a concrete fashion.

...and simply asserting that "They are against the spirit of the game" is not sufficient.

They didn't suddenly become so, after decades of being legal.

...and I can assert that about ANYTHING I don't like.  H*ll, I can insist that powered lawnmowers are not in the "Spirit of the game" and insist that we all go back to using SHEEP to maintain golf courses.

Edited by kellygreen, 14 November 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[mikpga]

You grip the club in the hands.

[NoobOutTheSand]

IMAGOLFER, on 01 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to try and ban them. I remember 5 years ago when all the belly putters we had in the shop just sat there collecting dust. We couldn't give them away. No one had a problem with them then. All of a sudden a couple guys win with them and we should ban them?

+1

[Johnny]

clubs should only touch your hands... not your forearms, stomach, chin.. what have you.

[kellygreen]

Zunes, on 09 November 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Agree. Ban it.
It is never too late to do the right thing.
Anchoring allows you to remove part of the challenge of swinging a club. It lessens or removes the need to control club rotation. Might as well use a golf ball firing gun then all you need to decide is distance and direction.

So does putting with the sort of body-controlled pendulum stroke that I use with a standard-length putter.  By creating a firm connection between my upper arms and my trunk.

So are we going to ban MY putting technique next?

[wings65]

it is stated in the rules of golf any anchoring of any club is forbidden therefore it is illegal and it should be banned.