287 replies to this topic

[ultra45]

for those who are trying to find any statistical advantage... how many times has freddy missed a short putt that mattered on sunday while left hand low with a belly putter???

honestly... when he's in contention... i like his chances from 30 feet more than 3

[the.landshark]

In my opinion, the only connection between a golfer and their golf club should be their hands.

I don't buy the "I have back issues" (if you can swing a wedge, you can swing a putter), or the "I have the yips" (sucks to be you, come back when you figure things out) arguments either. Putting is a skill, and if you've lost that skill... I'm sorry.

(plus it looks dorky )

[flip flappy]

brew4eagle, on 01 November 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

I just plain don't like watching people putt with them-  ban 'em.

I want to barf every time I see Adam Scott putt with his SC broomstick! I think he needs his man card revoked for using it!

Banning them will be tough though. We have a generation that has been putting with them since they started to play golf...USGA legal I might add. It will be tough on them, that's for sure!
On the other hand, banning them just for the professionals sounds like a good idea, but really isn't. If an amateur starts out legally putting with an anchored putter then has to switch over if he turns pro feasible?
It is damned if you do and damned if you don't!

[leec4571]

Who gives a SH*T as long as your having fun, its just a game.

Edited by leec4571, 22 November 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Al.J]

I can't stand everyone getting all wound up over how someone putts! If they ban anchoring then why not go all in and issue a one size fits all set of 14 clubs with a standardized ball. Same equipment for everyone. Then there's no advantage to anyone. The spirit of the game is not compromised by someone anchoring a putter in there belly or against their chest. If it helps someone enjoy the GAME a little more or be able to compete a bit better then so be it! We all have different swings and issues when it comes to getting that little ball in the hole, and we all try different things to do it. So why are we trying to say you can only make one type of putting stroke? Next stop is we all have to swing the club like a machine so nobody has an advantage in length or accuracy. What a boring golf tour it would be if they all played the exact same way!

[Zunes]

Am I wrong with the following observation?
If some posted here that they want a driver that will fix their slice, the overwhelming reply would be "spend your money on lessons, not a new driver".  But apparently if some were to post that they want a putter to fix their push, the answer would be "buy a anchor putter"?

[zonadub]

When you talk about looking "dorky", the claw grip looks dorky - will that be banned too? If you are arguing that anchored putters are not in the spirit of the game, how can the claw be in the spirit of a game that was played on ground 'mowed' by grazing sheep? The claw would have never worked under the original conditions of those who invented the game - and it looks stupid!

Those who think that a belly or broomstick prevents the yips must not have tried them, at least under stressful conditions. They are extremely easy to yip, push off line, pull, or whatever other putting ailments you may be predisposed to under competitive conditions. If you think a belly putter stays on line better because it is heavier, do you want to ban the 'Heavy Putter' brand too?

I Will vote 'no' in this poll. I have tried a belly putter, but found I could not keep putts on line. My personal preference is a standard length putter, but that is my choice.

[Al.J]

Zunes, on 24 November 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Am I wrong with the following observation?
If some posted here that they want a driver that will fix their slice, the overwhelming reply would be "spend your money on lessons, not a new driver".  But apparently if some were to post that they want a putter to fix their push, the answer would be "buy a anchor putter"?

Question your logic most people do buy drivers that help them hit the ball straighter. Different lofts, shaft flexes head styles all in the name of getting the ball in the hole in less strokes. Should be able to do the same with putters just saying

[kellygreen]

Zunes, on 24 November 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Am I wrong with the following observation?
If some posted here that they want a driver that will fix their slice, the overwhelming reply would be "spend your money on lessons, not a new driver".  But apparently if some were to post that they want a putter to fix their push, the answer would be "buy a anchor putter"?

...and if someone posted here that they were consistently pushing their iron shots to the right, people would tell them to have their lie angles checked before insisting that they alter their swing.

The reason why belly putter invokes such passion is simple.  The club is designed in a way that encourages a player to employ a big-muscle, quiet-wristed, pendulum stroke.  IOW, it encourages you to use PROPER technique.

THAT is why (so often) people get better at putting when they begin to use one.   Not that it confers any sort of (imaginary) "unfair advantage".   Because, I can assure you, to people who already have this kind of putting stroke...

Not only is the belly putter NOT an advantage, it is actually a DISADVANTAGE compared to a standard length putter.   Because the additional length and resting it against the body make it harder to remain steady over the ball.

[scomac2002]

kellygreen, on 26 November 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

The reason why belly putter invokes such passion is simple.  The club is designed in a way that encourages a player to employ a big-muscle, quiet-wristed, pendulum stroke.  IOW, it encourages you to use PROPER technique.

THAT is why (so often) people get better at putting when they begin to use one.   Not that it confers any sort of (imaginary) "unfair advantage".  

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  I've been using a belly putter on and off for the entire season.  I've had some good putting days with it and some poor putting days with it.  One thing I did notice is that when I switched back to a standard length putter after using a belly for a few rounds was that the first round with the standard length putter was exceptional in terms of my putting.  It's almost as though the belly putter is like a practice tool that ingrains an improved stroke much like a Medicus or a Tour Striker.

As you might expect, I voted no as I believe the entire issue is a red herring.  You still have to execute the shot and there is no statistical evidence that putting stats are better for the anchored putter user.  As others have said, there are far more pressing issues in the game.

[kellygreen]

scomac2002, on 26 November 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

kellygreen, on 26 November 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

The reason why belly putter invokes such passion is simple.  The club is designed in a way that encourages a player to employ a big-muscle, quiet-wristed, pendulum stroke.  IOW, it encourages you to use PROPER technique.

THAT is why (so often) people get better at putting when they begin to use one.   Not that it confers any sort of (imaginary) "unfair advantage".  

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  I've been using a belly putter on and off for the entire season.  I've had some good putting days with it and some poor putting days with it.  One thing I did notice is that when I switched back to a standard length putter after using a belly for a few rounds was that the first round with the standard length putter was exceptional in terms of my putting.  It's almost as though the belly putter is like a practice tool that ingrains an improved stroke much like a Medicus or a Tour Striker.

As you might expect, I voted no as I believe the entire issue is a red herring.  You still have to execute the shot and there is no statistical evidence that putting stats are better for the anchored putter user.  As others have said, there are far more pressing issues in the game.

It is a red-herring.  Because all of the many "alternative grips" (left-hand low, claw, shaft against the arm, etc...) are techniques that calculated to do the same thing as the belly putter.   To quie the hands, and to encourage the body and the arms to work as a connected unit in producing a pendulum stroke.

However, to single one out for "banning"....and not address all of the other techniques that produce the same effect is INCREDIBLY arbitrary.

...and pushed by people who (as a general rule) have no experience in actually USING a belly putter, and thus having a clear (fact-based) notion of what it can and cannot do.   Rather than lashing out at its presumed "magical" powers.

[nbg352]

Zunes, on 24 November 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Am I wrong with the following observation?
If some posted here that they want a driver that will fix their slice, the overwhelming reply would be "spend your money on lessons, not a new driver".  But apparently if some were to post that they want a putter to fix their push, the answer would be "buy a anchor putter"?

Yes. You are wrong. Most people go out of their way to buy a game. What do you think keeps the manufacturers in business?
And.......a pushed putt might be fixed with another new face balanced 34" beauty. Will it be a Scotty, this time? Or maybe that nice, white, Ghost........Yes we buy our draws and our baby fades. But not from teaching pros.

[PuttingDoctor]

The questions will all be answered tomorrow at 8:30 a.m.  The USGA / R&A plan a press conference/call.  Golf Channel plan to cover it live so tune in.

Will they shoot the game in the foot?  Will they ban anchoring in order to eliminate the long putter?  Will they do something to help grow the game? Will players / manufacturers sue the governing bodies in the event of a ban? What's next on their list?

We may have the answer to these questions and more early tomorrow morning.

[TheMoneyShot]

PuttingDoctor, on 27 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

The questions will all be answered tomorrow at 8:30 a.m.  The USGA / R&A plan a press conference/call.  Golf Channel plan to cover it live so tune in.

Will they shoot the game in the foot?  Will they ban anchoring in order to eliminate the long putter?  Will they do something to help grow the game? Will players / manufacturers sue the governing bodies in the event of a ban? What's next on their list?

We may have the answer to these questions and more early tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the info!  I have a feeling that they are going to ban them.  I bet oems are going to be very pissed off if that happens...

[Rock Chalk Jayhawk]

kellygreen, on 19 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

1. Equipment and technique are inseperable.  A face-balanced mallet has a higher-MOI than a heel-shafted blade...and takes some of the challenge out of putting.

2. I "anchor" my putter to my body by maintaining a firm connection between my upper arms and my trunk...then putt by rocking my shoulders.  The SAME putting technique that a belly-putter encourages a player to use.   So...are we now going to make MY putting technique illegal?  Because I certainly use it as a means of putting more consistently and quieting my hands.

3. You cannot use a 48" putter without achoring it to your body in some fashion.  Which is why this whole argument of "its technique and not equipment" rings hollow.

The technique is not identical. You are not "anchoring" the club against your body. You are holding it in your hands, and your arms are resting against your body. I see no problem with this. To reiterate, YET AGAIN, what I would like to see banned is holding a golf club, any golf club, using anything besides your hands. If the club itself is resting against any other part of your body, that technique should be banned.  It is a golf SWING.  

If you cannot use a 48" club without anchoring, then it would not be allowed, in the rules I would propse.

Edited by Rock Chalk Jayhawk, 27 November 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[Jamboy72]

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 19 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

1. Equipment and technique are inseperable.  A face-balanced mallet has a higher-MOI than a heel-shafted blade...and takes some of the challenge out of putting.

2. I "anchor" my putter to my body by maintaining a firm connection between my upper arms and my trunk...then putt by rocking my shoulders.  The SAME putting technique that a belly-putter encourages a player to use.   So...are we now going to make MY putting technique illegal?  Because I certainly use it as a means of putting more consistently and quieting my hands.

3. You cannot use a 48" putter without achoring it to your body in some fashion.  Which is why this whole argument of "its technique and not equipment" rings hollow.

The technique is not identical. You are not "anchoring" the club against your body. You are holding it in your hands, and your arms are resting against your body. I see no problem with this. To reiterate, YET AGAIN, what I would like to see banned is holding a golf club, any golf club, using anything besides your hands. If the club itself is resting against any other part of your body, that technique should be banned.  It is a golf SWING.  

If you cannot use a 48" club without anchoring, then it would not be allowed, in the rules I would propse.

So you're okay with anchoring a body part to another body part to create stability, but not part of a club to a body part?  Doesn't that seem a little contradictory?

[nbg352]

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 19 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

1. Equipment and technique are inseperable.  A face-balanced mallet has a higher-MOI than a heel-shafted blade...and takes some of the challenge out of putting.

2. I "anchor" my putter to my body by maintaining a firm connection between my upper arms and my trunk...then putt by rocking my shoulders.  The SAME putting technique that a belly-putter encourages a player to use.   So...are we now going to make MY putting technique illegal?  Because I certainly use it as a means of putting more consistently and quieting my hands.

3. You cannot use a 48" putter without achoring it to your body in some fashion.  Which is why this whole argument of "its technique and not equipment" rings hollow.

The technique is not identical. You are not "anchoring" the club against your body. You are holding it in your hands, and your arms are resting against your body. I see no problem with this. To reiterate, YET AGAIN, what I would like to see banned is holding a golf club, any golf club, using anything besides your hands. If the club itself is resting against any other part of your body, that technique should be banned.  It is a golf SWING.  

If you cannot use a 48" club without anchoring, then it would not be allowed, in the rules I would propse.

The technique of anchoring the forearms to the torso is exactly the same as anchoring the putter shaft to the body. It inspires exactly the same stroke and technique, with exactly the same kind of result. Why don't you just 'fess up and admit that YOU DON"T LIKE IT and that's why you want it banned. 'cause face it, if you've never tried anchoring and you've never tried anchoring your forearrms to your body, either, so you really don't know of which you speak, especially since in anchoring the arms to the body as kelly is describing, is NOT resting the arms against the body, it IS anchoring them to the body.  Two completely different things.

[Jamboy72]

Cause: USGA puts restrictions on grooves...

Effect: Companies redesign shafts and faces to create similar spin as before...

Net change: No change in scoring...no change for pros (and really amateurs as well)...USGA looks stupid

Cause:  USGA bans anchoring

Effect:  People find other ways to get the same effect...USGA gets sued...some golfers decide to quit....not all tours adopt new rules...____________________...

Net change:  USGA looks even more stupid than before and I no longer update my USGA membership...

[Pepperturbo]

Keep in mind, what style of putter some of you use has no bearing on the real argument.  It's focused on whether or not there's an anchoring advantage for tour players and better amateurs that play in USGA tournaments and by the rules; and those two segments area better putters, regardless of what they use.  What the rest of the golfers use is not likely going to be discussed during USGA and R&A discussions.  Worst case, it will end up going the way that grooves went.

What I find a bit silly, a great many golfers don't follow even rudimentary USGA rules, not to mention don't post.  Some people just like to argue.

[kellygreen]

topekareal, on 27 November 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

kellygreen, on 19 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

1. Equipment and technique are inseperable.  A face-balanced mallet has a higher-MOI than a heel-shafted blade...and takes some of the challenge out of putting.

2. I "anchor" my putter to my body by maintaining a firm connection between my upper arms and my trunk...then putt by rocking my shoulders.  The SAME putting technique that a belly-putter encourages a player to use.   So...are we now going to make MY putting technique illegal?  Because I certainly use it as a means of putting more consistently and quieting my hands.

3. You cannot use a 48" putter without achoring it to your body in some fashion.  Which is why this whole argument of "its technique and not equipment" rings hollow.

The technique is not identical. You are not "anchoring" the club against your body. You are holding it in your hands, and your arms are resting against your body. I see no problem with this. To reiterate, YET AGAIN, what I would like to see banned is holding a golf club, any golf club, using anything besides your hands. If the club itself is resting against any other part of your body, that technique should be banned.  It is a golf SWING.  

If you cannot use a 48" club without anchoring, then it would not be allowed, in the rules I would propse.

So you're okay with anchoring a body part to another body part to create stability, but not part of a club to a body part?  Doesn't that seem a little contradictory?

No.  Just arbitrary.

[Pepperturbo]

topekareal, on 27 November 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Cause: USGA puts restrictions on grooves...

Effect: Companies redesign shafts and faces to create similar spin as before...

Net change: No change in scoring...no change for pros (and really amateurs as well)...USGA looks stupid

Cause:  USGA bans anchoring

Effect:  People find other ways to get the same effect...USGA gets sued...some golfers decide to quit....not all tours adopt new rules...____________________...

Net change:  USGA looks even more stupid than before and I no longer update my USGA membership...

They only look stupid in your eyes, and a sliver of others that think like you.  The rest of us know there is a difference.  Net change; if last week watching better golfers wield wedges with new grooves was any indication (pretty unsightly results), there's a big effect, that many either don't see or admit to.  It pays to know how to use "V" grooves.

[kellygreen]

Pepperturbo, on 27 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Keep in mind, what style of putter some of you use has no bearing on the real argument.  It's focused on whether or not there's an anchoring advantage for tour players and better amateurs that play in USGA tournaments and by the rules; and those two segments area better putters, regardless of what they use. What the rest of the golfers use is not likely going to be discussed during USGA and R&A discussions.  Worst case, it will end up going the way that grooves went.

What I find a bit silly, a great many golfers don't follow even rudimentary USGA rules, not to mention don't post.  Some people just like to argue.

Yet, no one has shown any objective evidence that there is any such advantage.

Just lots of people running around ASSERTING (very loudly and very forcefully) that there is one....and when you ask them for data, they keep ON asserting....

[kellygreen]

Pepperturbo, on 27 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

topekareal, on 27 November 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Cause: USGA puts restrictions on grooves...

Effect: Companies redesign shafts and faces to create similar spin as before...

Net change: No change in scoring...no change for pros (and really amateurs as well)...USGA looks stupid

Cause:  USGA bans anchoring

Effect:  People find other ways to get the same effect...USGA gets sued...some golfers decide to quit....not all tours adopt new rules...____________________...

Net change:  USGA looks even more stupid than before and I no longer update my USGA membership...

They only look stupid in your eyes, and a sliver of others that think like you.  The rest of us know there is a difference.  Net change; if last week watching better golfers wield wedges with new grooves was any indication (pretty unsightly results), there's a big effect, that many either don't see or admit to.  It pays to know how to use "V" grooves.

Oh please.

The rule changes with grooves was backwards and poorly thought out....which is why it makes the USGA look stupid and petty.

Because the rule change is going to impact POORER players more than it will better players.  Better players will have a range of shots at their disposal to play short shots, and get them near the hole.  Reduce the amount of spin that they can produce...and they'll simply hit the ball higher and stop it with trajectory instead.

All the rule change did was stop the progression towards 58* wedges with lots of spin, back to 60* wedges for greenside play....and increases in spin on short shots by other equipment changes. (ball, shafts, etc...).   All things that the typical recreational player (The true heart of the game) doesn't have in their arsenal.

Which is why the rule change had ZERO net impact on scoring.

[inpresX]

If anchoring becomes illegal, how would they enforce it? What if the end of the club grazes your belly during a stroke. Who could possibly see that?

[nbg352]

inpresX, on 27 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

If anchoring becomes illegal, how would they enforce it? What if the end of the club grazes your belly during a stroke. Who could possibly see that?

Couch potatoes with slo-mo......

[James Thomas]

birdyking99, on 02 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 01 November 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

dlam, on 01 November 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

R&A and USGA get ready for class action from guys on the tour that use long putters for their livihood

What standing do professional golfers have to sue the USGA and R&A?  These organizations are free to set up rules as they see fit.

+1...i am in agreement with this and anyone that signs up to follow this class action lawsuit is showing the dependency they need to survive on tour.    They are contractors and have to deal with the governing bodies making the rules of the game.   Can I do a class action against my company because they are making me use a Windows PC vs. an Apple?   I am making a living just like they are.       They need to start practicing with a different style now and be prepared instead of wasting time and money chasing a class action suit.

I agree with birdyking99 100%.  If the pros don't like the rules,  then they can go thru the established process for getting them changed ... If they can get enough people to agree with them.  Using the court system to force a (potentially) minority's opinion down the throat of everyone else is quite simply tyranny.  Personally, I don't know my opinion regarding the rule against anchoring the putter against the body.  But, once I do make up my mind, I do not believe I have the right to force those who disagree with me to adhere to my opinion ... especially not thru the courts.

[scomac2002]

James Thomas, on 27 November 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Using the court system to force a (potentially) minority's opinion down the throat of everyone else is quite simply tyranny.  Personally, I don't know my opinion regarding the rule against anchoring the putter against the body.  But, once I do make up my mind, I do not believe I have the right to force those who disagree with me to adhere to my opinion ... especially not thru the courts.

So why is this any different than a governing body disallowing practices that have been legal for years if a majority of players don't agree with it?

[Pepperturbo]

kellygreen, on 27 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Pepperturbo, on 27 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Keep in mind, what style of putter some of you use has no bearing on the real argument.  It's focused on whether or not there's an anchoring advantage for tour players and better amateurs that play in USGA tournaments and by the rules; and those two segments area better putters, regardless of what they use. What the rest of the golfers use is not likely going to be discussed during USGA and R&A discussions.  Worst case, it will end up going the way that grooves went.

What I find a bit silly, a great many golfers don't follow even rudimentary USGA rules, not to mention don't post.  Some people just like to argue.

Yet, no one has shown any objective evidence that there is any such advantage.

Just lots of people running around ASSERTING (very loudly and very forcefully) that there is one....and when you ask them for data, they keep ON asserting....

If objective evidence is your primary concern, spend some of your money to prove us wrong.  We don't have to prove anything, we're NOT the one's making the decision.

[Pepperturbo]

kellygreen, on 27 November 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Pepperturbo, on 27 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

topekareal, on 27 November 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Cause: USGA puts restrictions on grooves...

Effect: Companies redesign shafts and faces to create similar spin as before...

Net change: No change in scoring...no change for pros (and really amateurs as well)...USGA looks stupid

Cause:  USGA bans anchoring

Effect:  People find other ways to get the same effect...USGA gets sued...some golfers decide to quit....not all tours adopt new rules...____________________...

Net change:  USGA looks even more stupid than before and I no longer update my USGA membership...

They only look stupid in your eyes, and a sliver of others that think like you.  The rest of us know there is a difference.  Net change; if last week watching better golfers wield wedges with new grooves was any indication (pretty unsightly results), there's a big effect, that many either don't see or admit to.  It pays to know how to use "V" grooves.

Oh please.

The rule changes with grooves was backwards and poorly thought out....which is why it makes the USGA look stupid and petty.

Because the rule change is going to impact POORER players more than it will better players.  Better players will have a range of shots at their disposal to play short shots, and get them near the hole.  Reduce the amount of spin that they can produce...and they'll simply hit the ball higher and stop it with trajectory instead.

All the rule change did was stop the progression towards 58* wedges with lots of spin, back to 60* wedges for greenside play....and increases in spin on short shots by other equipment changes. (ball, shafts, etc...).   All things that the typical recreational player (The true heart of the game) doesn't have in their arsenal.

Which is why the rule change had ZERO net impact on scoring.

Backwards or forward, doesn't matter to anyone but people that think like you.    The typical recreational player you reference, by and large does NOT play by the rules, and many do NOT have indexes.  I am fairly confident they won't care.  Kinda like the guy I saw this past weekend; no index, doesn't care what they do with the rules and plays with an illegal driver.  When it comes down to it, I am confident the only people to complain will be certain people on DB's; not the true heart of the game.

[inpresX]

nbg352, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

inpresX, on 27 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

If anchoring becomes illegal, how would they enforce it? What if the end of the club grazes your belly during a stroke. Who could possibly see that?

Couch potatoes with slo-mo......

They are gonna have to have referees next to the greens to call fouls.