36 replies to this topic

[Rays Clubs]

I would like to obtain the view of the experts on this forum as to whether or not laminated woods, have any value to the collector of classic clubs. I appreciate that Persimmon are the best and most sought after but what about laminated clubs. I suspect not but would like to hear the views of others.

[ptjn1201]

I would guess not, other than maybe some early Pings or some niche names or models.

[dalehead]

I'm sure there are collectors for everything, but I've never met a collector of laminated woods. Persimmon is where it's at.

[Maxwell]

I have a little experience with laminated Maple(L/M). Wilson manufactured some very good laminated Maple woods early 50's.
I have a couple of Babe Zaharias L/M woods.  Sharp looking and have a solid feel to them. I am presently restoring an older Vancouver, Canada Pro-Made driver which is laminated Maple. Deep face with the "target" located at the centre of the crown directly behind the middle of the insert. Thats where I was told the target "should be" with a laminated Maple club heads. What I have noticed about laminated Maple woods is "breaks in the hosel" just below the bottom of the  whipping cover. I don't know if it's the result of an angry golfer taking out his frustrations on the club or not but I have repaired two L/M woods with breaks in that location. Just an observation.  
Max

Edited by Maxwell, 10 May 2013 - 01:02 PM.

['53 Precision]

How about these?

[rex235]

'53 Precision-

Did these come out of that Phoenix shop where PING laminated woods were made as well?

If you're a Hoganista, you just might want a set of Ben Hogan laminated woods (just to say you have them.)

These appear to be in very good condition.....mid '80s perhaps?

Wilson pioneered the "Strata Bloc" laminated maple wood because, as their ads stated then-
"the density of the wood becomes a controllable factor".  Full disclosure- My favorite Wilson club is a LH persimmon brassie 2 wood from the 50s....

Dave Wood has written that lifetime Wilson Staff  member Sam Snead cried when his favorite persimmon driver cracked and split...
Snead also opined that you'd be lucky to find more than 2 drivers you liked in your lifetime.

Hogan didn't make any LH persimmon woods, so the laminated Hogans were all you got from them...

MacGregor made LH persimmon woods with Ben Hogan's signature, but strangely, Ben Hogan's own golf company did not.

The MacGregor Tommy Armour 693 RH is the gold standard for persimmon.
The LH persimmons are either the MacGregor TA 653, or the "MT" EOM  M80W.
H&B/PowerBilts are sleepers, along with Specialty (Joe Powell, Bert Dargie, George Izett, Spalding Custom) name persimmon clubs.  Also, Toney Penna designed persimmon woods (MacGregor and Toney Penna)

These Hogan clubs you show would be contenders for best laminated woods.

Edited by rex235, 30 October 2012 - 05:17 PM.

['53 Precision]

Don't know where they were made, I would assume Ft. Worth or maybe Louisville, KY, they may be a special order? I am from Ft. Worth and live in a suburb now, these are from the late '60's or early '70's based on the inverted Y screw patern. They are marked Personal Model, they are gorgeous and do not appear to have been refinished. Factory Hogan grips, near perfect shaft bands and all screws present in the hosels.

[rex235]

'53-

+1

The luthiers who did the work on these laminated woods knew these were special.  Imperfections can be hidden by stain.

Have not seen anything like them from Hogan. The Hogan models for Women were blue color, the same as the arrow on yours.
PING had a few blond laminated heads, but most of the earlier models were Coal Black.

What is the stiffness number of the shaft?

[teevons]

I have always thought the Macgregor Tommy Armour SpeedWood Multi Ply,model 69 laminated model was a great set of woods from Macgregor . They used the same head as the 693 , same insert and soleplate and shafts as its famous cousin but becasue it is laminated does not hold much value to the collector, other than me ... I have a from what I know a rare DFD model also, head is the same but is stamped dfd. I have used the soleplates from the laminated heads to repair the 693 woods as they fit perfecctly
I also like the Hogan laminated models, Byron Nelson and Demaret made them too. All Speedwood Multi Ply on toe
I attached pics of the 2 Armours and Nelson and a Hogan 1552 with EOM insert and a white criss cross insert

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['53 Precision]

rex235, on 31 October 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

'53-

+1

The luthiers who did the work on these laminated woods knew these were special.  Imperfections can be hidden by stain.

Have not seen anything like them from Hogan. The Hogan models for Women were blue color, the same as the arrow on yours.
PING had a few blond laminated heads, but most of the earlier models were Coal Black.

What is the stiffness number of the shaft?

The "arrow" on mine is the blue line in the Hogan script on the crown, it has the Hogan signature, a red line and a blue line. There is Speedslot 407 decal, they are all four Apex 4 shafts with the original style Apex shaft band, Hogan cull chord grips with the plastic shrink band at the bottom of the grip, and a country club label on the shaft also. They have been played, but not much. You are right, they are special, virtually a perfect match of each other.

The Country Club label reads:

River Oaks C.C.
H. E. Chiles
Houston, TX

Any Ideas? I have one, I'll expound later...

Edited by '53 Precision, 04 November 2012 - 09:00 AM.

['53 Precision]

OK, H. E. Chiles was an oilman who founded The Western Co. which in it's heyday made $500,000,000.00 a year in the oil business and employed 5,000 people. He also was a founding member of River Oaks, Country Club in Houston, owned the Texas Rangers (selling to a group led by G.W. Bush) and lived down the street from and was a personal friend of one William Ben Hogan. It is quite possible that Mr. Hogan actually took personal care in the manufacture of these woods for his friend. These facts lead me to believe the woods are in original condition and are a set of very few matching un-painted laminates ever made by The Ben Hogan Co.

[rtv]

That's awesome '53, sure seems like you have a real one of a kind set on your hands.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

From 08 November 2012 - 08:44 AM:

OK, H. E. Chiles was an oilman who founded The Western Co. which in it's heyday made $500,000,000.00 a year in the oil business and employed 5,000 people. He also was a founding member of River Oaks, Country Club in Houston, owned the Texas Rangers (selling to a group led by G.W. Bush) and lived down the street from and was a personal friend of one William Ben Hogan. It is quite possible that Mr. Hogan actually took personal care in the manufacture of these woods for his friend. These facts lead me to believe the woods are in original condition and are a set of very few matching un-painted laminates ever made by The Ben Hogan Co.

From 08 November 2012 - 08:44 AM:

OK, H. E. Chiles was an oilman who founded The Western Co. which in it's heyday made $500,000,000.00 a year in the oil business and employed 5,000 people. He also was a founding member of River Oaks, Country Club in Houston, owned the Texas Rangers (selling to a group led by G.W. Bush) and lived down the street from and was a personal friend of one William Ben Hogan. It is quite possible that Mr. Hogan actually took personal care in the manufacture of these woods for his friend. These facts lead me to believe the woods are in original condition and are a set of very few matching un-painted laminates ever made by The Ben Hogan Co.

I remember when he ran ads on the radio back in the mid 1970's.  " I'm Eddie
Chiles president  of the great  western company.  And I'm mad...." then he would go off on some govt regulation.  They were great.  One of my fraternity brothers was the CFO at about that time.

Edited by Ironmaster Oddities, 08 November 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[nbg352]

Maxwell, on 25 October 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

I have a little exeperience with laminated Maple(L/M). Wilson manufactured some very good laminated Maple woods early 50's.
I have a couple of Babe Zaharias L/M woods.  Sharp looking and have a solid feel to them. I am presently restoring an older Vancouver, Canada Pro-Made driver which is laminated Maple. Deep face with the "target" located at the centre of the crown directly behind the middle of the insert. Thats where I was told the target "should be" with a laminated Maple club heads. What I have noticed about laminated Maple woods is "breaks in the hosel" just below the bottom of the  whipping cover. I don't know if it's the result of an angry golfer taking out his frustrations on the club or not but I have repaired two L/M woods with breaks in that location. Just an observation.  
Max

The breaks are from heel hits. I broke or cracked my share too, as my miss with those old drivers was off the heel at the hosel.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

teevons, on 03 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I have always thought the Macgregor Tommy Armour SpeedWood Multi Ply,model 69 laminated model was a great set of woods from Macgregor . They used the same head as the 693 , same insert and soleplate and shafts as its famous cousin but becasue it is laminated does not hold much value to the collector, other than me ... I have a from what I know a rare DFD model also, head is the same but is stamped dfd. I have used the soleplates from the laminated heads to repair the 693 woods as they fit perfecctly
I also like the Hogan laminated models, Byron Nelson and Demaret made them too. All Speedwood Multi Ply on toe
I attached pics of the 2 Armours and Nelson and a Hogan 1552 with EOM insert and a white criss cross insert

I used to have a set of Armour  Tourney speedwoods years ago.I either gave them away or junked 'em.  I do believe I spotted a Byron Nelson Tourney Speedwood in my Hoard from Niles. It is still there, unless I got lucky and the houses burned down. I didn't consider it a priority club and still don't. I am sure I will run across it again and will post a picture when I do. Wilson of course, was always Gung Ho about their Strato-bloc laminated woods. The only reason they started making some persimmon  clubs in the 80-s and 90's was because of the demand that vintage Macgregors created for persimmon. Their Tour Blocks from that era were pretty decent woods.

[rex235]

'53-

If your history of the laminated Hogans is documented (and it sounds like they are), then by all means-consider them collectible-
Anything that could have been done under the personal direction of Ben Hogan might have written confirmation...

Note Teevons has a number of laminated MacGregors, and perhaps a few of these were done by MacGregor master luthiers.
Again, it seems plausible these models would be done by masters/apprentices for the different MacGregor staff models
(Tommy Armour, Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Jimmy Demaret, Jackie Burke,) Note all the different soleplate designs shown.

Perhaps Charley Penna could  help with this, as consideration of these MacGregors, aged and battered as they are, would be a great study.  

Is the one stamped DFD on the soleplate?

One more thing...Wilson Staff Tour Block Persimmons.....definitely RH ONLY....

Edited by rex235, 10 November 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[teevons]

Yes the DFD is stamped on sole, but not soleplate
Here are some pictures of more nice laminated woods, a set of LH Wilson Staff and PGA woods with very nice laminated pattern

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[Blade Junkie]

Just won an auction on UK eBay for what I believe to be MacGregor Tourney Custom woods from 1976 to 1978, which are laminated edge grain maple. Will post some pics after I've collected them. They are described in Golfworks III as "burgundy rosewood finish/red cryolac insert with 6 screw pattern". There is a white keyhole on the insert as well, which isn't mentioned.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

if there is any value to laminated woods, then I am in the process of junking a fortuneover the next few weeks. I have hundreds, if not thousands of pro line woods...many are in mint or near mint conditiion. Lots of Staffs, Haigs, Powerbilts, and some Hogans. Even some Pings.. I am trying to hold on to them.  But.
I just don't have any place to keep them. Same with lots of persimmons.  Spaldings in particular.  If any of you want some of this stuff, let me know via PM.  ultra cheap to sort. shippin is probably more than club cost.
Uncle Bob

[rex235]

teevons, on 11 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Yes the DFD is stamped on sole, but not soleplate
Here are some pictures of more nice laminated woods, a set of LH Wilson Staff and PGA woods with very nice laminated pattern

Teevons-

Those are some nice LH W/S woods......Love the W/S logo inside the cycolac insert.
Though laminated, these were the top of the LH models offered from Wilson.

[rex235]

Ironmaster Oddities, on 24 November 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

if there is any value to laminated woods, then I am in the process of junking a fortuneover the next few weeks. I have hundreds, if not thousands of pro line woods...many are in mint or near mint conditiion. Lots of Staffs, Haigs, Powerbilts, and some Hogans. Even some Pings.. I am trying to hold on to them.  But.
I just don't have any place to keep them. Same with lots of persimmons.  Spaldings in particular.  If any of you want some of this stuff, let me know via PM.  ultra cheap to sort. shippin is probably more than club cost.
Uncle Bob

Ironmaster-

Have the family duties first. Will see you soon.

[stixman]

My Sam Snead Signature c.1953 is more a curiosity that I use for limbering up than a collectable with value. I  haven't struck a ball with it yet. It has the TT Made in England Step Down shaft, M flex label which I take to be medium,, original plastic hosel sleeve and looks 'un-mucked about with'.
However...it swings out at E9, which I would have thought was pretty extreme. It has a brass bottom plate and  no back weight and 10/11 degrees of loft, so its not a 'Brassie'
Could it be this was assembled in the UK to order, or made accidentally to this spec?

[Bella Woods]

stixman:

I would doubt the club came from the manufacturer (accidently) with that swingweight, I bet somebody altered it. I have a full set
(Driver, 2,3 & 4 woods) of the 1954 Wilson Sam Snead Signature woods and all of them are in the D1 to D4 range with original grips
and the old True Temper Dynamic shafts.

Possibilities for your swingweight - the weight of the Step Down shaft (heavy), the lenght of the club (long)(my driver is 42 1/2") and
leadweight under the soleplate, put there or added to after the fact.

Also - if the club is "un-mucked about with" and 10 to 11 degrees loft - not impossible but pretty stout for the 2 wood - are you sure
its not an aluminum soleplate with yellowed varnish finish?

A couple of pictures of my 1954 Driver:

[xgolfx]

To the best of my knowledge, no MacGregor laminated clubs were pro only, the designation that the top of the line was sold exclusively by golf pros at country clubs.

Sam Snead and Toney Penna were close friends. Sam used drivers made by Toney because he had no use for  Wilson woods. Toney made him drivers and disguised them by using a Wilson sole plate. Toney made drivers used to win more tournaments in the persimmon era than any other designer. Snead, Hogan, Nicklaus, Trevino ,Seve, Watson, Nelson, Miller,ad nauseum, all used TP woods to win

CHARLEY PENNA

[stixman]

Many thanks to Bella and Charley for responding so quickly. The phots were very illuminating given I didn't know what this club should look like.
The sole plate is the give-away. Mine is a non standard fitting in brass which explains the extreme swing weight E9. Oddly, there is no sign of a rebate having been cut for a conventional sole plate, and the face insert looks to be the correct height.
Here are some photos of my ratty and distressed example.

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[Jon Robert]

Value?

IT IS 2012  eBay will tell you if they have any value. Completed listings will answer that question right away.

[Shallowface]

Jon Robert, on 10 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Value?

IT IS 2012  eBay will tell you if they have any value. Completed listings will answer that question right away.

A good idea in theory, but in practice it doesn't work so well because the vast majority of sellers of laminated woods on Ebay list them as being persimmon.

[Ol_Pardner]

I think that persimmon will always command a higher price than laminates. However, there will also be some, like myself, who appreciate good laminates. My collection includes some of both--MacGregor Persimmons, Hogans--both, Spaldings--both. Because of old age, arthiritis, and weather conditions, I have Hogan laminates in my bag right now. In same way to a lot of prefer forged over cast irons, for the softer feel, I likewise believe that laminated woods 'feel' softer and that I have better 'control with them.' I also accept the theory that, like metals, persimmons tend to be a little longer.

Like first love, I've had 3 'GREAT' drivers in my life time:
1. Spalding Top Flite, laminated, 1969 or '70, with a medium Vanadium shaft, during high school golf and beyond, cracked and 'died' when a supposedly reputible repair shop tried to reshaft it with a TT Dynamic S;

2. Penna Persimmon, Apex 5 shaft, late 20s until mid 30s when my back went out; and

3. An old Ben Hogan laminate, Apex 4 shaft, best $1 that I ever spent at a thrift store!!! Finish was shot, face so gouged, it took a lot of epoxy and filler to plug the holes. But the insert was still in good shape, and the club had that elusive quality, that we constantly search for, 'feel.' It's my 'go-to' club, whenever nothing else is working--me, as well as other drivers--I know that I can swing and hit this driver and it will go where I aim it.

So, 'short-story-long,' I think that like dogs, the true value of some golf clubs is in the eye of the beholder. And like golf swings, clubs are not a 'one-size-fits-all' proposition: collect and play what you like, and what works for you!

[Shallowface]

Ol_Pardner, on 03 January 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

3. An old Ben Hogan laminate, Apex 4 shaft, best $1 that I ever spent at a thrift store!!! Finish was shot, face so gouged, it took a lot of epoxy and filler to plug the holes. But the insert was still in good shape, and the club had that elusive quality, that we constantly search for, 'feel.' It's my 'go-to' club, whenever nothing else is working--me, as well as other drivers--I know that I can swing and hit this driver and it will go where I aim it.

This very day I picked up a Hogan laminate with an Apex 4 shaft for $1 at a thrift store!  Needs little more than a new grip.

It's going to be a while before I get to try it, but I love the way it looks.  Black heads with red inserts have always been favorites of mine.  Goes back to my first set of Northwestern Pro Bilts. Those heads were Cycolac plastic, but they were black with red inserts.

The laminated woods don't have the "snob appeal" of persimmon, but I've had a number of them that played very well.  I used a Ping Eye 2 with the green eye (slightly stronger loft) for years and it was much better for me than the highly touted metal clubs (Big Bertha) of that day.  PowerBilt laminated woods always did well for me.  When I was a teenager back in the mid 70s, I had a Spalding Dot II with a leather grip that was an excellent driver.  It had a brass backweight like the PowerBilts.

[jeriatric]

my ben hogan speed slot laminates.  all but the 2 and 7 purchase in 1979 (with original receipt).   still use them.  (the 1+ is a small face driver with a 12° face, standard roll and buldge)

i'm having the 2 wood re-faced; replacing the inverted 'y' screw pattern with the square screw pattern (thanks to bella woods for the cycolac insert).

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