39 replies to this topic

[Newby]

http://golfweek.com/...-tours-players/

[Vindog]

From that...It seems that they (USGA) won't invoke the right given in 14-3 and that it won't be until 2016.

Though it appears imminent at this point.   I think that the USGA should do whatever it feels necessary to protect the game for everyone.  And the PGA tour should do whatever it feels necessary to protect their livelihood, athough it would seem weird if Keegan, Webb, A. Scott et al show up at the US Open and have to use SL putter for one week...

[Socrates]

I've seen a lot of mixed messages lately.  They'll make an announcement at seasons end, they'll make an announcement in late November early December, they won't make a decision until March 2013 and I don't know if the 3 parties (USGA, R&A and PGA) can't get their message straight or what.  They also mention in the article that there is no empirical data to show that an anchored putter is any better or worse than a "normal" putter.

What does seem to be pertinent is that we have Mike Davis speaking directly to the PGA Tour players and advising them on practicing with short putters.  Seems like they have made up their mind and just can't seem to get up enough nerve to come out and say it until their lawyers have researched the heck out of it.

Edited by Socrates, 20 October 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Vindog]

Socrates, on 20 October 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

I've seen a lot of mixed messages lately.  They'll make an announcement at seasons end, they'll make an announcement in late November early December, they won't make a decision until March 2013 and I don't know if the 3 parties (USGA, R&A and PGA) can't get their message straight or what.  They also mention in the article that there is no empirical data to show that an anchored putter is any better or worse than a "normal" putter.

What does seem to be pertinent is that we have Mike Davis speaking directly to the PGA Tour players and advising them on practicing with short putters.  Seems like they have made up their mind and just can't seem to get up enough nerve to come out and say it until their lawyers have researched the heck out of it.

It's not entirely clear that the PGA Tour will comply.  Jim Furyk is quoted as saying they may or may not go along with whatever rule changes might occur.

[sui generis]

I'd like to see the R&A and USGA say that they've looked carefully at "the problem" and, though Old Tom Morris may be spinning in his grave, we see no legitimate reason to change the Rules at this time and furthermore the PGA Tour can go pound sand. However, no matter what they say or don't say the uproar will be uproarious.

[Socrates]

Vindog, on 20 October 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

It's not entirely clear that the PGA Tour will comply.  Jim Furyk is quoted as saying they may or may not go along with whatever rule changes might occur.

There is no way in h*ll that the PGA Tour or any Tour would not comply with the change if it happens.  If they did not, the implication would be that they are cheating and that's not going to happen (integrity, playing by the Rules and all that).  The PGA Tour as a group would comply, but I would bet on individual members taking the decision to court if they can.

[rogolf]

Socrates, on 20 October 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Vindog, on 20 October 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

It's not entirely clear that the PGA Tour will comply.  Jim Furyk is quoted as saying they may or may not go along with whatever rule changes might occur.

There is no way in h*ll that the PGA Tour or any Tour would not comply with the change if it happens.  If they did not, the implication would be that they are cheating and that's not going to happen (integrity, playing by the Rules and all that).  The PGA Tour as a group would comply, but I would bet on individual members taking the decision to court if they can.

It's my understanding that one of the stipulations of the PGA Tour settlement of the lawsuit with Ping (regarding grooves) is that the PGA Tour must follow USGA Rules.
See third paragraph of this:
http://golfweek.com/...ng-eye-2-wedges/

[Jamboy72]

I think there could be a lot of twists, turns and permutations before this thing is settled given the lack of clear quantifiable information.  What is clear, is that a lot of intelligent people disagree and therefore a clean and quick decision isn't likely, as evidenced by the quasi-timeline the PGA tour has set forth.  

It is hard to get unanimous support (or even an evident will of the majority) when your fighting perceptions and ideologies and not statistical evidence...

[rogolf]

topekareal, on 20 October 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I think there could be a lot of twists, turns and permutations before this thing is settled given the lack of clear quantifiable information.  What is clear, is that a lot of intelligent people disagree and therefore a clean and quick decision isn't likely, as evidenced by the quasi-timeline the PGA tour has set forth.  

It is hard to get unanimous support (or even an evident will of the majority) when your fighting perceptions and ideologies and not statistical evidence...

I think it's quite clear that if the R&A and USGA change the Rules of golf, the PGA Tour will comply with the changes.

[toolman]

If they ban them I can't wait to follow the drama of the lawsuits that will follow. I'm sure the Keegan's and Simpsons alike have already spoken to their attorneys about this.

[Socrates]

If and when they do something (if for no other reason than they don't like the look of it since they can't prove that it is more effective), the verbiage will be very interesting.  That will determine whether or not someone can launch a lawsuit.  This is likely holding up the announcement as they surely don't want to let anyone have any basis for a lawsuit.

[Jamboy72]

rogolf, on 20 October 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

topekareal, on 20 October 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I think there could be a lot of twists, turns and permutations before this thing is settled given the lack of clear quantifiable information.  What is clear, is that a lot of intelligent people disagree and therefore a clean and quick decision isn't likely, as evidenced by the quasi-timeline the PGA tour has set forth.  

It is hard to get unanimous support (or even an evident will of the majority) when your fighting perceptions and ideologies and not statistical evidence...

I think it's quite clear that if the R&A and USGA change the Rules of golf, the PGA Tour will comply with the changes.

I don't think this is clear at all - You don't go and try to gain the support of the policy board if it's clear the tour will comply with any changes - There'd be no reason to

[Vindog]

Socrates, on 20 October 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

There is no way in h*ll that the PGA Tour or any Tour would not comply with the change if it happens.  If they did not, the implication would be that they are cheating and that's not going to happen (integrity, playing by the Rules and all that).  The PGA Tour as a group would comply, but I would bet on individual members taking the decision to court if they can.

I'm not saying they will or won't or they have to or don't have to..But Furyk is quoted as saying that they may or may or go along.  That is all.  I does seem weird that they would not go along, but he did say that.

rogolf, on 20 October 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

It's my understanding that one of the stipulations of the PGA Tour settlement of the lawsuit with Ping (regarding grooves) is that the PGA Tour must follow USGA Rules.
See third paragraph of this:
http://golfweek.com/...ng-eye-2-wedges/

Just saying what Furyk said.

rogolf, on 20 October 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think it's quite clear that if the R&A and USGA change the Rules of golf, the PGA Tour will comply with the changes.

Then why bother trying to "sell" this to a policy board?  The USGA is really mucking this up...from top to bottom, imo.

[rogolf]

Vindog, on 21 October 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Socrates, on 20 October 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

There is no way in h*ll that the PGA Tour or any Tour would not comply with the change if it happens.  If they did not, the implication would be that they are cheating and that's not going to happen (integrity, playing by the Rules and all that).  The PGA Tour as a group would comply, but I would bet on individual members taking the decision to court if they can.

I'm not saying they will or won't or they have to or don't have to..But Furyk is quoted as saying that they may or may or go along.  That is all.  I does seem weird that they would not go along, but he did say that.

rogolf, on 20 October 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

It's my understanding that one of the stipulations of the PGA Tour settlement of the lawsuit with Ping (regarding grooves) is that the PGA Tour must follow USGA Rules.
See third paragraph of this:
http://golfweek.com/...ng-eye-2-wedges/

Just saying what Furyk said.

rogolf, on 20 October 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think it's quite clear that if the R&A and USGA change the Rules of golf, the PGA Tour will comply with the changes.

Then why bother trying to "sell" this to a policy board?  The USGA is really mucking this up...from top to bottom, imo.

I'll suggest that it was a convenient time for the USGA to update the PGA Tour policy board, and that "sell" was the word/view used by the reporter, not by Mr. Davis.
We're getting off the topic - the topic is a Rules change.

Edited by rogolf, 21 October 2012 - 08:33 AM.

[Vindog]

rogolf, on 21 October 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I'll suggest that it was a convenient time for the USGA to update the PGA Tour policy board, and that "sell" was the word/view used by the reporter, not by Mr. Davis.

yeah thus the " "

Edited by Vindog, 21 October 2012 - 08:33 AM.

[Jamboy72]

Likely doubtful Davis walked in and said, "Gentlemen, I'm here to sell and idea to you which I'm sure won't be immediately popular...."  But as such, we're still waiting and spinning...

[Truman]

The USGA routinely updates interested parties to impending rule or decision changes.  In this case it was the PGA policy board.  The purpose is to inform, not sell or debate.

[Jamboy72]

So Davis was just there to give a quick update??  I'm not sure that passes the smell test...

[Socrates]

Truman, on 22 October 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

The USGA routinely updates interested parties to impending rule or decision changes.  In this case it was the PGA policy board.  The purpose is to inform, not sell or debate.

topekareal, on 22 October 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

So Davis was just there to give a quick update??  I'm not sure that passes the smell test...

It's called "Administrative Expenses".  You get to go places to "give an update" to a concerned party and your company pays for it.  He updated them on a couple of things and he got out of New Jersey for a few days.  Sounds like a good thing.

It's what wasn't reported that likely was the most interesting thing (like..., "Keegan.  Webb.  Go buy a short putter!")

[Jamboy72]

Yeah, I'm sure...what isn't reported is always more interesting...hopefully we'll have some more info soon...

[Vindog]

Socrates, on 23 October 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

It's called "Administrative Expenses".  You get to go places to "give an update" to a concerned party and your company pays for it.  He updated them on a couple of things and he got out of New Jersey for a few days.  Sounds like a good thing.

An all expenses paid trip to get out of Jersey?

win - win

[OldGolfer87]

I would venture a guess that the PGA tour can make their own "local rule" for any rule they want to modify not just anchoring ??  would they have to do this for every different event or can the set a local rule and it would be permanent ? Also i would be suprised if a rule chance happens on putters and someone like Carl Petterson doesn't take legal action

[Socrates]

From Golf Channel

Officials from the USGA and R&A will make presentations during the next two tournaments – this week’s WGC-HSBC Champions and next week’s Barclays Singapore Open – to discuss how a potential ban on long putters and the anchoring of clubs would be implemented, according to a report Saturday in The Telegraph. A similar seminar was held two weeks ago at the PGA Tour’s McGladrey Classic.

The Telegraph is reporting that players in the field for the WGC event will be briefed on the banning of anchoring clubs in advance of an announcement that will be made next month.As previously reported, the ban is expected to focus not on the club but rather the stroke – the anchoring of the putter against a part of the body.

Any potential rules change likely would wait until the end of the current rules cycle, which runs through December 2015.

Since they gave this similar talk at the McGladrey's and they are going to do it at the next Tour events (Euro and PGA), why hasn't there been any first hand reports of what was said?  Is it some big secret?  Maybe after this week there will be some concrete reports, but right now they (news media) are just wildly speculating and perpetuating mis-information.  If the R&A and USGA are giving the players a "heads up", they already have made their decision and "asking" them for their permission (which is what they seem to be doing), they must be hoping that this will some how make it more palatable.  

Show some balls and just come out with it!!

[rogolf]

RetiredMedic029, on 25 October 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I would venture a guess that the PGA tour can make their own "local rule" for any rule they want to modify not just anchoring ??  would they have to do this for every different event or can the set a local rule and it would be permanent ? Also i would be suprised if a rule chance happens on putters and someone like Carl Petterson doesn't take legal action

Local Rules must not waive a Rule of golf (Rule 33-1), and I believe the PGA Tour are legally bound to follow the USGA Rules of golf (part of a settlement with Ping).

Further, what would be the basis for any potential legal action?

[Socrates]

rogolf, on 29 October 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

RetiredMedic029, on 25 October 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I would venture a guess that the PGA tour can make their own "local rule" for any rule they want to modify not just anchoring ??  would they have to do this for every different event or can the set a local rule and it would be permanent ? Also i would be suprised if a rule chance happens on putters and someone like Carl Petterson doesn't take legal action

Local Rules must not waive a Rule of golf (Rule 33-1), and I believe the PGA Tour are legally bound to follow the USGA Rules of golf (part of a settlement with Ping).

Further, what would be the basis for any potential legal action?

You are right about following the Rules.

In the USA, you can sue for almost anything.  People are speculating that Petterson, Tim Clark, Adam Scott and others would have to find other work and would sue for restraint of trade (or similar).

[rogolf]

Socrates, on 29 October 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

rogolf, on 29 October 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

RetiredMedic029, on 25 October 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I would venture a guess that the PGA tour can make their own "local rule" for any rule they want to modify not just anchoring ??  would they have to do this for every different event or can the set a local rule and it would be permanent ? Also i would be suprised if a rule chance happens on putters and someone like Carl Petterson doesn't take legal action

Local Rules must not waive a Rule of golf (Rule 33-1), and I believe the PGA Tour are legally bound to follow the USGA Rules of golf (part of a settlement with Ping).

Further, what would be the basis for any potential legal action?

You are right about following the Rules.

In the USA, you can sue for almost anything.  People are speculating that Petterson, Tim Clark, Adam Scott and others would have to find other work and would sue for restraint of trade (or similar).

I wonder if anyone tried to sue the USGA when standing astride the extension of the line of putt was eliminated?  or when caddies were no longer permitted to stand behind the player during the stroke?  I suspect they would be unsuccessful suing over a rules change on how a stroke is made.

[sui generis]

The governing bodies of the various sports change the rules all of the time. So do businesses and governments. Why would a judge consider a complaint about putter anchoring?

[TexasAg]

Detrimental Reliance.

[Guia]

It won't make any difference to the game if they do ban the long putter.  The grooves made no difference, this
won't either.

[Vindog]

Guia, on 29 October 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

It won't make any difference to the game if they do ban the long putter.  The grooves made no difference, this
won't either.

Ahh... but the "integrity" of the game would be protected....


What a laugh.