175 replies to this topic

[roll - gybe]

Vindog, on 30 October 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

duffer987, on 29 October 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

You can set expectations of 3:45 all you like, but try that at 1pm, on a Saturday, with a tournament gone off at 9am, and with tee times every 8 mins.

We can all cherry pick some courses and times and days of the week where pace of play is either great or not so much - it's not rocket science.

Yes which is why I wonndered if the good pace time listed in the above time slot was also a function of the type of player that plays in that time slot.
The couse expects a certain time, thus players who don't make that time, don't play in that slot, thus the requirenments are met.

Is it the expectaion, the players or both that is making it work? Probably a combination of a few things, imo.

I don't think it is entirely the player.  Yes, more players who want to play fast get up early.  However, more good players play early.  In many cases these players would play at 5 hour pace if given the green light.

Social pressure and letters in the locker are a powerful thing.

[Vindog]

roll - gybe, on 30 October 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

Vindog, on 30 October 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

duffer987, on 29 October 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

You can set expectations of 3:45 all you like, but try that at 1pm, on a Saturday, with a tournament gone off at 9am, and with tee times every 8 mins.

We can all cherry pick some courses and times and days of the week where pace of play is either great or not so much - it's not rocket science.

Yes which is why I wonndered if the good pace time listed in the above time slot was also a function of the type of player that plays in that time slot.
The couse expects a certain time, thus players who don't make that time, don't play in that slot, thus the requirenments are met.

Is it the expectaion, the players or both that is making it work? Probably a combination of a few things, imo.

I don't think it is entirely the player.  Yes, more players who want to play fast get up early.  However, more good players play early.  In many cases these players would play at 5 hour pace if given the green light.

Social pressure and letters in the locker are a powerful thing.

Thank you.  That's exactly what I was saying.

My contention was that it is ALSO (read: not ENTIRELY) a function of the type of player playing in that slot.  If social pressure and large letters worked that well, then why is the expectation of a 3:45 round only made until 10:00 in the above example?

Edited by Vindog, 30 October 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[apprenti23]

Slow play isn't killing golf, the poor economy is killing golf! Cheap prices on golf, not wanting to piss off customers in fear of losing business, etc. golf has changed for the worse over the past five years and its all due to poor economy!!! Slow play is just an effect of the main cause.

[ChipDriver]

Vindog, on 30 October 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

ChipDriver, on 29 October 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

duffer987, on 29 October 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

ChipDriver, on 29 October 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

With all due respect - that IS how it works at many places both private and public - particularly with early morning weekend tee times.  From 7-10 a.m. tee times a few courses I know tell you they expect 3:45 to play 18....and voila - 3:45 is the pace that most people will play.

It's not rocket science - it's simply customer expectation management.

You can set expectations of 3:45 all you like, but try that at 1pm, on a Saturday, with a tournament gone off at 9am, and with tee times every 8 mins.

We can all cherry pick some courses and times and days of the week where pace of play is either great or not so much - it's not rocket science.

According to this thread - most folks find 4:00-4:30 acceptable.

How did we arrive at that number?

In europe - I believe the average time to play 18 (and walking) is much shorter - around 3:30?  ...although I would defer to others who know better.  How did they arrive at such a different number than 4:30?

differences in course architecture?  just off the top of my head..,.could be wrong though.

Agree somewhat - however, I would also suggest that many learned to play the game that way too.

1) Assume 1 minute to hit a shot - average of 5 shots per hole = 5 minutes
2) Average human walks 3 miles per hour - 88 yards per minute - so if an average hole is 500 yards:  5 minutes  if you walk;  faster if you cart.
3) Since you all can't tee off at once - add 2 more minutes for everyone to tee off and start walking:  2 minutes.
4) Since you all can't putt at the same time - add 2 more minutes for everyone to putt out while people wait:  2 minutes
That's a GENEROUS 14-15 minutes

My guess is that many folks could be faster by 3-5 minutes if they were retrained:

1) get to your ball and be ready to hit.
2) talk and chat on the greens and tee boxes

If you want to get into even more speed:
1) acknowledge honors, but tee off when ready
2) putt out

It will sound "too fast" to many.  But that's how people play at 7-10 a.m....and they have plenty of fun IMO.  

Simple "expectation management".

[duffer987]

Vindog, on 30 October 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Yes which is why I wonndered if the good pace time listed in the above time slot was also a function of the type of player that plays in that time slot.

Yes, I agree wholly on this point. Painting with broad strokes, I would bet the vast majority of 'early starters' like to play golf without having to wait much between shots. Combine that with tee-times that are not fully booked and folks can scoot around well below the 'typical' time for the course.

[duffer987]

ChipDriver, on 30 October 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Agree somewhat - however, I would also suggest that many learned to play the game that way too.

1) Assume 1 minute to hit a shot - average of 5 shots per hole = 5 minutes
2) Average human walks 3 miles per hour - 88 yards per minute - so if an average hole is 500 yards:  5 minutes  if you walk;  faster if you cart.
3) Since you all can't tee off at once - add 2 more minutes for everyone to tee off and start walking:  2 minutes.
4) Since you all can't putt at the same time - add 2 more minutes for everyone to putt out while people wait:  2 minutes
That's a GENEROUS 14-15 minutes

My guess is that many folks could be faster by 3-5 minutes if they were retrained:

1) get to your ball and be ready to hit.
2) talk and chat on the greens and tee boxes

If you want to get into even more speed:
1) acknowledge honors, but tee off when ready
2) putt out

It will sound "too fast" to many.  But that's how people play at 7-10 a.m....and they have plenty of fun IMO.  

Simple "expectation management".

I must have played with over 100 different golfers of varying skills and golf knowledge this year, on all sorts of different tracks, and I would say that is exactly how 95% of them play.

There have been a few non-stop talkers, a few eying up the winning putt at the Masters putters, and a couple who couldn't get into their routine until they were well ready, that would have golfing habits that would tend to make them 'slow'. But they were in the minority.

I don't think the general golfing public needs the indoctrination, as well intentioned as it would be Courses need to be realistic about their tee-times (easier said than done) and they need to actively marshal those 5% whose golfing habits have a knock-on affect to slow down every single group playing behind them.

[Vindog]

ChipDriver, on 30 October 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Agree somewhat - however, I would also suggest that many learned to play the game that way too....


...Simple "expectation management".

It sounds so simple, yet the fact that they only want it from 7-10 says something about it's practablility.


Maybe

Edited by Vindog, 30 October 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Pepperturbo]

mark m, on 26 October 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

wetdogsmell, on 25 October 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

What is the 'correct' speed to play a course? Is there such a thing as playing too fast?

To answer your question:

If it was my course, the goal would be a max of 4 hrs for 18 holes. Some of this depends on the layout (topography, distance between holes, difficulty, etc.) But on just about any decent 18 hole course, 4 hrs would be a good goal. And a 4:30 pace would be the max allowed. So, if you are on a 4:30+ pace, you would be required to pick up the pace. This wouldn't be a "gotcha" policy. I would make all players aware of it before golf. It would be important part of the culture of the course. (Slow players can go elsewhere.)

A good example of this is a common pace of play policy for amateur tournaments. The max allowed in our state tournaments is usually shown to be around the 4:30 time frame - which means an average of around 15 minutes per hole. The distance between holes is calculated into the time limit. Par 3's tend to be a little less than 15 min (around a 13-14 minute pace) and par 5's around 16-17. Now remember that the players are walking and typically playing in 3 somes on a course that is usually longer and more difficult than an average course. If you have ever participated in one - IMO no way is a 4:15-4:30 pace a quick pace.

Can players play too fast?
That depends. If players start off both sides (1 and 10) , if you play the first 9 too quick than you may have to wait awhile at the turn. Some may not like that. If all players start on #1 - then it would obviously be preferred that the first groups set a quick pace of play. A consideration here is for the grounds crew. Sometimes fast players can run into grounds crew members preparing the course for play.

As much as I'd like to agree with your time expectations, it's a recipe for serious disappointment in AZ, CA, and Maui.  I still play difficult 6800/6900 courses.  How do you cover that yardage and "difficult" (72+/135+) rated courses in under 4hrs during prime time / Sat or Sun WITH mid-high index people on the course?

Edited by Pepperturbo, 30 October 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[ChipDriver]

Vindog, on 30 October 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

ChipDriver, on 30 October 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Agree somewhat - however, I would also suggest that many learned to play the game that way too....


...Simple "expectation management".

It sounds so simple, yet the fact that they only want it from 7-10 says something about it's practablility.


Maybe

It's right-sized - simple logistics.   Assume you have 40 - 60 people who want to play golf in the morning and are willing to play faster - that's great.  The quid pro quo - "you play faster; we'll give you premium tee times".   You get MORE people playing early (more $$$ and happier members/clients).  AND you don't slow down the rest of the course.

If you put people in the early slots that play 4-4.5 hours - frankly - it slows the course down from the start.

As we all know - most of the membership/client simply aren't going to play that fast....and it will slow down anyways.   And when I say "aren't" I mean - they will refuse.     Ultimately you have to please your client base.


Case in point:  if you have the luxury of having members who like fast play - you can tell the 4.5 hour players to "hurry up - or get out."

I don't know of ANY course in America that has that luxury.  

Edited by ChipDriver, 30 October 2012 - 01:31 PM.

[roll - gybe]

Vindog, on 30 October 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

roll - gybe, on 30 October 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

Vindog, on 30 October 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

duffer987, on 29 October 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

You can set expectations of 3:45 all you like, but try that at 1pm, on a Saturday, with a tournament gone off at 9am, and with tee times every 8 mins.

We can all cherry pick some courses and times and days of the week where pace of play is either great or not so much - it's not rocket science.

Yes which is why I wonndered if the good pace time listed in the above time slot was also a function of the type of player that plays in that time slot.
The couse expects a certain time, thus players who don't make that time, don't play in that slot, thus the requirenments are met.

Is it the expectaion, the players or both that is making it work? Probably a combination of a few things, imo.

I don't think it is entirely the player.  Yes, more players who want to play fast get up early.  However, more good players play early.  In many cases these players would play at 5 hour pace if given the green light.

Social pressure and letters in the locker are a powerful thing.

Thank you.  That's exactly what I was saying.

My contention was that it is ALSO (read: not ENTIRELY) a function of the type of player playing in that slot.  If social pressure and large letters worked that well, then why is the expectation of a 3:45 round only made until 10:00 in the above example?

I am saying the expectations of the membership and pros are more important than the skill level of the players.  I think you are looking at co-dependent variables and spurious correlations.

In this discussion, I think there is little evidence supplied to support skill level as measured by handicap as being a factor of ANY significance.

Edited by roll - gybe, 31 October 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Vindog]

roll - gybe, on 31 October 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

I am saying the expectations of the membership and pros are more important than the skill level of the players.  I think you are looking at co-dependent variables and spurious correlations.

In this discussion, I think there is little evidence supplied to support skill level as measured by handicap as being a factor of ANY significance.

Then why did you bring it up? I surely didn't.

I was only mentioning that maybe other factor might have something to do with the example, and not just aggressive signage and time expectations.

[ChipDriver]

Vindog, on 31 October 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

roll - gybe, on 31 October 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

I am saying the expectations of the membership and pros are more important than the skill level of the players.  I think you are looking at co-dependent variables and spurious correlations.

In this discussion, I think there is little evidence supplied to support skill level as measured by handicap as being a factor of ANY significance.

Then why did you bring it up? I surely didn't.

I was only mentioning that maybe other factor might have something to do with the example, and not just aggressive signage and time expectations.

It's basically like "speed limit" signs on the highway.....the speed limit is posted....if you exceed it (or go slower than it) - you get a reminder in the form of a warning or a ticket.


No different than golf courses where I play put you on a "slowpoke list".   If you violate the signage and time expectations, the penalty is that you:  a) have to take a cart (if you were a walker) and b) if you get another warning you can't play until after 11.  Eventually those that play 7-10 are only those that can comply.  This isn't rocket science....but the course DOES have to be willing to enforce it (at the expense of pissing off their clients).

As an example at your courses - if you exceed 4.5 hours...doesn't the pro shop say/do anything???

Edited by ChipDriver, 31 October 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Vindog]

Okay, with all due respect, I understand the theory of it all.

My point is being missed and perhaps that is my fault.

[Bad9]

Shiram, on 17 October 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Picking up and playing from the forward tees are both great things to advocate - and I'm on board... but let's not fool ourselves into thinking its just bad players slowing down the course.

Skill level does not dictate pace of play. There are slow players who are really good sticks - heck there are slow players on the PGA tour...

I just think its misleading to spend so much time in the article talking about high handicappers being the cause of the problem. It's people who aren't ready to hit and people who take 5 minutes reading every putt that drive up the pace of play.

I agree that it is very disingenuous to spend 3/4ths of the article talking about bad players slowing up the game. In my experience that it is better players, especially those with money games, who are BY FAR the slowest groups on the course.

[Pepperturbo]

Bad9, on 01 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Shiram, on 17 October 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Picking up and playing from the forward tees are both great things to advocate - and I'm on board... but let's not fool ourselves into thinking its just bad players slowing down the course.

Skill level does not dictate pace of play. There are slow players who are really good sticks - heck there are slow players on the PGA tour...

I just think its misleading to spend so much time in the article talking about high handicappers being the cause of the problem. It's people who aren't ready to hit and people who take 5 minutes reading every putt that drive up the pace of play.

I agree that it is very disingenuous to spend 3/4ths of the article talking about bad players slowing up the game. In my experience that it is better players, especially those with money games, who are BY FAR the slowest groups on the course.

I too agree, good golfers contribute to slow play.   However, with the vast majority of golfers being mid-high and no index, hitting the ball all over the place, and too often from the wrong tees, their pace of play has a much broader influence on the field then the fraction of slow skilled amateurs.  So, suggesting both segments are responsible, when sheer numbers point towards mid-high and no index golfers having greater influence, misleads.

Is there an absolute answer..NO.  Will there ever be an answer - NO.

[mikpga]

The article fails to demonstrate any proof/fact/statistic pertaining to slow play is killing golf...

[Greenie]

Slow play has always been around. When I started playing 25 yrs. ago slow play was considered to be a round of 4-4.5 hrs. I remember if we hit 4.5 we were pissed as we finished our round. Now a slow round is considered 5.5-6 hrs. I think the difference is so many people feel entitled today.  It doesn't matter how good or how bad you are, it's the ones  "it's all about me and my needs" today.  I run into ignorant people regularly on the course.

[rckvrn]

Having read this post and all the replies makes the game sound very intimidating to the new.  I may have had second thoughts about starting this sport. But after playing 1-2 times a week (alot of 9-hole rounds) since May I'm hooked. I usually wait late afternoon to go and if it looks busy I skip that day. There is a club (36 holes) in our area that has a set of 9-holes that doesn't get used much which is good for beginners. I've finally played the entire course several times and always let faster players go through. I've gotten to where I don't spend alot of time worrying about yardages but grab a club that I think will do the job. If it takes more than 3 or 4 putts to get in the hole I pick it up and move on. I can usually keep in the fairway but my short game is not so good. When I lose a ball I only give it a few minutes and drop another one. I feel that when I get to where I want to be with this game (which may never be) I can keep the pace up and not be the root cause of 'Slow Play'.

[ChipDriver]

rckvrn, on 10 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Having read this post and all the replies makes the game sound very intimidating to the new.  I may have had second thoughts about starting this sport. But after playing 1-2 times a week (alot of 9-hole rounds) since May I'm hooked. I usually wait late afternoon to go and if it looks busy I skip that day. There is a club (36 holes) in our area that has a set of 9-holes that doesn't get used much which is good for beginners. I've finally played the entire course several times and always let faster players go through. I've gotten to where I don't spend alot of time worrying about yardages but grab a club that I think will do the job. If it takes more than 3 or 4 putts to get in the hole I pick it up and move on. I can usually keep in the fairway but my short game is not so good. When I lose a ball I only give it a few minutes and drop another one. I feel that when I get to where I want to be with this game (which may never be) I can keep the pace up and not be the root cause of 'Slow Play'.

You sound like you are at least conscientious.   I doubt many people would pressure you.   Enjoy the game.  You're doing it right.

[ironmikes]

I know people do not like slow play but how about the people that just drive by and pass you out to get to the nexy hole faster , to get done faster ? they get stuck behind another group in front of me lol . what gets me is these people never ever repair their ball marks , let alone fix a couple of extras . I always fix mine plus 3-4 others . its a shame when you play later in the day and the green is full of ballmarks. I wish I had a dollar for every ballmark I have fixed.

Edited by ironmikes, 10 November 2012 - 09:49 AM.

[dlygrisse]

I have played many rounds by myself on a mostly open course in about 2 1/2 hours without hurrying, with a twosome in about 3 hours.  A foursome can play most any course in 3:45 no problem if they try, 4 hours should be no problem, I played yesterday in about 4 hours even with four players, and we spent considerable time looking for balls on a couple of holes, we actually let a group play through because of this,the course was a pretty tough Nicklaus course.  Point is there is no reason for a 5 1/2 hour round except for the fact somewhere a group of people is so self centered and narcissistic that they could care less about the people playing behind them.

The marshals have to nip the slow group in the bud, it starts somewhere, with someone, tell them to speed up or kick them off the course and tell them to never return. Losing their business will actually increase revenues for the course long term, more people will want to play there, they will get more rounds in during a given day.  It would be a win/win situation and hopefully the people who got booted would just give up the game and go bowling.

[duffer987]

rckvrn, on 10 November 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Having read this post and all the replies makes the game sound very intimidating to the new.  I may have had second thoughts about starting this sport. But after playing 1-2 times a week (alot of 9-hole rounds) since May I'm hooked. I usually wait late afternoon to go and if it looks busy I skip that day. There is a club (36 holes) in our area that has a set of 9-holes that doesn't get used much which is good for beginners. I've finally played the entire course several times and always let faster players go through. I've gotten to where I don't spend alot of time worrying about yardages but grab a club that I think will do the job. If it takes more than 3 or 4 putts to get in the hole I pick it up and move on. I can usually keep in the fairway but my short game is not so good. When I lose a ball I only give it a few minutes and drop another one. I feel that when I get to where I want to be with this game (which may never be) I can keep the pace up and not be the root cause of 'Slow Play'.

As someone new to the game, I'd actually avoid every forum on WRX except Instruction, Travel, and the Classifieds in fairness.
There is some great great stuff in those ones for beginners like yourself and the 90% of golfers on here who seemingly have a handicap of 5 or less. Seriously just ignore all these opinion threads. Some of the attitudes on display in them will do a lot more to 'kill golf' than 5hr+ rounds.

You've got the right perspective on your game at this point and you want to get better. What's not to like about that combination?
Keep up within your group and keep your group within a shot of the group in front and you are doing all you can do... well assuming you're enjoying yourself as well. Welcome to the game/addiction

Edited by duffer987, 10 November 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[ironmikes]

duffer987, is your avatar a pic of you on the #18 tee at Half Moon Bay ?

[rightlefty]

After not playing, praticing,watching, or thinking about golf, for more than 6 months, in the last couple of weeks I went out and played two times. I find it absolutely beyond belief that the golf course's are completely saturated with guys that have no ability to play golf !!!  None whatsoever !!!   I asked all the guys I was playing with, when was the last time they saw anyone one a golf course that could actually play golf. Their answer was,.....aaaaaaaaaaaa, I dont remember ever seeing anyone that could really play golf.  

The whole course was completely jamed with morons, 4.5- 5 hour round guys, all of them. Really, really pathetic. We spent 2.5 hours playing golf , and 2.5 hours just standing around watching totally uncoodinated duffess'es expose how inept, rude, inconsiderate, and incompetent they are as human beings.

Golf is a joke !!!!!!!    A really, really, bad joke !!!!

[duffer987]

Great! It's probably advisable you go back to "not playing, praticing (sic), watching, or thinking about golf".
It'll be best for everyone.

Edited by duffer987, 11 November 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Vindog]

rightlefty, on 11 November 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

After not playing, praticing,watching, or thinking about golf, for more than 6 months, in the last couple of weeks I went out and played two times. I find it absolutely beyond belief that the golf course's are completely saturated with guys that have no ability to play golf !!!  None whatsoever !!!   I asked all the guys I was playing with, when was the last time they saw anyone one a golf course that could actually play golf. Their answer was,.....aaaaaaaaaaaa, I dont remember ever seeing anyone that could really play golf.  

The whole course was completely jamed with morons, 4.5- 5 hour round guys, all of them. Really, really pathetic. We spent 2.5 hours playing golf , and 2.5 hours just standing around watching totally uncoodinated duffess'es expose how inept, rude, inconsiderate, and incompetent they are as human beings.

Golf is a joke !!!!!!! A really, really, bad joke !!!!

I believe you bro.  Totally.

Even a drunk monkey high on heroin can figure out that you are a liar and nothing that you post is even remotely true, starting with your "hiatus"

The only bad joke here is you.  But I think you already knew that.

Edited by Vindog, 13 November 2012 - 08:31 AM.