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Tour Tempo theory mistake!!!


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#121 BassMaster

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

I couldn't use the TT audio.  I anticipated the beats instead of reacting to them.  I just couldn't do it properly.

I'm not familiar with music at all, but I'd like to know how to use a metronome to anticipate the beats to allow me to swing in a 3:1 ratio.  I think that would work better for me.  Do you guys know how to do this?


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#122 crapula

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostBassMaster, on 14 October 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

I couldn't use the TT audio.  I anticipated the beats instead of reacting to them.  I just couldn't do it properly.

I'm not familiar with music at all, but I'd like to know how to use a metronome to anticipate the beats to allow me to swing in a 3:1 ratio.  I think that would work better for me.  Do you guys know how to do this?

If you want to anticipate the beats instead of react, set a metronome in 5/4 time at appx 240 bpm (I think that would be a 1.25 second swing). Start swing on 1, start downswing on 4, impact at 5. Don't forget to anticipate the 1!
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#123 irishiain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

Wasn't there a huge post here from the tour tempo guy earlier? What happened to it?

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#124 MrParr1Noid

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:38 PM

View Postirishiain, on 15 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Wasn't there a huge post here from the tour tempo guy earlier? What happened to it?

The Tour Tempo post was taken down for being an advertisement .   Our sponsors pay for that privilege.
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#125 Kiwi2

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:53 PM

So, if some one comes on dissing  a product the person selling the product can't reply because he may be seen to  be advertising?

I didn't read Novosel's reply as an ad. He refuted  lot of the contrary arguments raised in this thread and posted a link to a review which was very relevant to his reply.

Perhaps you should consider reinstating it.


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#126 Hawkeye77

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:59 PM

I'd say explain, rather than refute, and it was a good explanation.

There was probably a little extra in there that went beyond just a response and into a bit of salesmanship, but when a thread is basically someone wrongly calling out a product, perhaps a little leeway and some cautious editing could be a nice compromise?

Edited by HAWKEYE77, 15 October 2012 - 09:23 PM.

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#127 Dire Wolf

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:52 AM

Mods call, of course, but it did have some sales pitch in it, including some namedropping and "testimonial" style "proof of viability".

In general, the explanation wasn't much different from what some have already said regarding reaction vs anticipation/timing.  Opinions about that have already been made abundantly clear.  I recommend a lock, OP.

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#128 John Novosel

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:12 AM

View PostGolfzalo, on 11 October 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

I would appreciate your comments on this, because what I understand from my analysis is that tour pros perform a swing in a 3:1 ratio and Novosel book is teaching a 2:1 ratio swing. IMHO huge mistake!

Regards,

G


Hi Golfzalo,

1. Glad to hear you’re a drummer – we’re real partial to drummers, in fact, one of the best drummers in the world is a big fan of ours – Mike Mangini of “Dream Theater. ”

2. As to your question – this issue has come up before:

The reason the Tour Tempo tones are spaced the way that they are?

The Tour Tempo Long Game ratio is 3 parts backswing to 1 part downswing - but to be able to swing correctly to that 3:1 tempo, you must factor in human reaction time. The Tones are scientifically spaced to give you a 3:1 Tour Tempo swing when you follow them. Just let the tones direct your swing according to the directions in the book.

From Tour Tempo (pg 33) :

"Organisms don’t react instantly to a stimulus; there is always a delay between the registration of the stimulus and the triggering of the response. I was reminded of a scientific study undertaken some years ago by the Golf Society of Great Britain, which published a book called The Search for the Perfect Swing. The GSGB researchers would put a golfer in a room and say, “Go ahead and swing. We’re going to put the lights out. The instant the lights go out, we want you to alter the path of your swing. ” They discovered that nobody could do it. No golfer, once his swing had started back down from the top, could do anything to change his swing before impact.

For our tempo tracks to be precise, therefore, we had to enter reaction time into the equation. The number we settled on was one-fifth of a second. That was widely accepted in scientific circles as average for humans pushing buttons or stepping on brake pedals in response to visual or aural cues. (A teenager wielding a Whack-a-Mole hammer is somewhat quicker. A senior citizen at a changing traffic signal is a bit slower.) Working again in my Final Cut Pro program, I realigned the tones. I added a fifth of a second before the first beat (takeaway) and then moved the second beat forward by a fifth of a second to signal the change of direction at the top of the swing. The third tone (impact) stayed put, since it was more of a timing target than a stimulus requiring a response."

As to whether golfers have been following the wrong ratio - Major Championship winners like Phil Mickelson, Padraig Harrington, and Darren Clarke and other Tour Players would not be using the Tour Tempo Tones if they were incorrect.

Hope that helps,

John


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#129 crapula

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:41 AM

Isn't that the same? I'm confused as to why the last one was taken down? This one name drops too, is it because of no links?


Mike Mangini is cool, but Portnoy was better. Anyone ever see Time Warp with Mike Mangini?


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#130 Hawkeye77

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:07 PM

It's not the same.  Just be glad it's there.

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#131 tmfool

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:04 AM

have the skeptics used tour tempo tones  -- and filmed your swing?

how many frames per second?

if you do it right, should be 3:1 --

not sure why this turned into 5pg thread?
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#132 Dire Wolf

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:58 AM

View Posttmfool, on 17 October 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

have the skeptics used tour tempo tones  -- and filmed your swing?

how many frames per second?

if you do it right, should be 3:1 --

not sure why this turned into 5pg thread?

Is the goal to dissect film or hit better shots?

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#133 crapula

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:18 PM

View Posttmfool, on 17 October 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

have the skeptics used tour tempo tones  -- and filmed your swing?

how many frames per second?

if you do it right, should be 3:1 --

not sure why this turned into 5pg thread?

It turned into a 5 pg thread because it took 5 pages for John to to realize or hear he needed to post here.

I have used TT and filmed my swing and I found 1/5 are 3:1, by luck. It's hard to react exactly the way they intended it. I find it easier to anticipate 5/4.

Edited by crapula, 17 October 2012 - 12:18 PM.

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#134 hoganfan924

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:37 PM

View Postcrapula, on 17 October 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

View Posttmfool, on 17 October 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

have the skeptics used tour tempo tones  -- and filmed your swing?

how many frames per second?

if you do it right, should be 3:1 --

not sure why this turned into 5pg thread?

It turned into a 5 pg thread because it took 5 pages for John to to realize or hear he needed to post here.

I have used TT and filmed my swing and I found 1/5 are 3:1, by luck. It's hard to react exactly the way they intended it. I find it easier to anticipate 5/4.

No, it turned into a 5 page thread because people didn't want to believe the answer that was given by several posters (starting on page 1) that was the same as what Novosel finally posted.

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#135 Hawkeye77

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:33 PM

Exactly. He doesn't have any obligation to constantly monitor websites.

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#136 rainkingjr

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:51 PM

I didn't read the enitre thread, but the OP is over analyzing this and I understand why because I was initially confused as to why there where only three actual audible tones representing a 3 to 1 ratio. Thought about it for a while and listened closely, then the light finally went on. It breaks down like this. Yes there are only 3 total tones used., but it's not realy 1.....2..3. The second count is not represented with a tone. The audible tones represent counts 1,3 and 4 of an actual 4 beat measure. What really throws it off is that they don't use a whole measure between sets of tones when using standard 4/4 time. The first set of audible tones occur on counts 1,3 and 4 of the first measure then the second set starts on 3 of the second measure (silent 4) then 1 and 2 of the 3rd measure. If they would have just spaced the tones using a full measure between sets of tones versus th current version, musicians like the OP and myself wouldn't get all cerebral about it.

1(Swing)...*2(Silent)..3 (Set)...4(Through)

Edited by rainkingjr, 17 October 2012 - 08:56 PM.


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#137 jgonz69

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:55 PM

I don't see what is so difficult to understand the 3:1 ratio ON VIDEO was converted to audio.
Seems easy to see its not a particular musical tempo.

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#138 Dire Wolf

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:12 AM

Yeah, because centuries-old, proven timing methods such as counting are good for everything BUT timing the golf swing.

How do you think and orchestra would sound (or even a rock band) if all the musicians didn't count or anticipate divisions of time in order to stay in synch and on tempo, and instead "anticipated" the downbeat?

/scratching my head

Edited by Dire Wolf, 19 October 2012 - 09:12 AM.


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#139 HitEmTrue

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:58 AM

View PostDire Wolf, on 19 October 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Yeah, because centuries-old, proven timing methods such as counting are good for everything BUT timing the golf swing.

How do you think and orchestra would sound (or even a rock band) if all the musicians didn't count or anticipate divisions of time in order to stay in synch and on tempo, and instead "anticipated" the downbeat?

/scratching my head

Dire, I agree with you 100%.

I think part of the problem is that, in it's original incarnation, the tones weren't set to music (and had no click going either), so it was reactionary based.  So they did some research and figured out what delay times to include into the model.  Then LATER, they *may* (it is only my theory) have taken those same tone spacings and dropped them right on top of music...without removing the reaction times.

We are going to have to let it go.  :)

Edited by HitEmTrue, 19 October 2012 - 09:59 AM.


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#140 jgonz69

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

are we talking music or golf swing?

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#141 Golfzalo

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:29 PM

View PostJohn Novosel, on 16 October 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

View PostGolfzalo, on 11 October 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

I would appreciate your comments on this, because what I understand from my analysis is that tour pros perform a swing in a 3:1 ratio and Novosel book is teaching a 2:1 ratio swing. IMHO huge mistake!

Regards,

G


Hi Golfzalo,

1. Glad to hear you’re a drummer – we’re real partial to drummers, in fact, one of the best drummers in the world is a big fan of ours – Mike Mangini of “Dream Theater. ”

2. As to your question – this issue has come up before:

The reason the Tour Tempo tones are spaced the way that they are?

The Tour Tempo Long Game ratio is 3 parts backswing to 1 part downswing - but to be able to swing correctly to that 3:1 tempo, you must factor in human reaction time. The Tones are scientifically spaced to give you a 3:1 Tour Tempo swing when you follow them. Just let the tones direct your swing according to the directions in the book.

From Tour Tempo (pg 33) :

"Organisms don’t react instantly to a stimulus; there is always a delay between the registration of the stimulus and the triggering of the response. I was reminded of a scientific study undertaken some years ago by the Golf Society of Great Britain, which published a book called The Search for the Perfect Swing. The GSGB researchers would put a golfer in a room and say, “Go ahead and swing. We’re going to put the lights out. The instant the lights go out, we want you to alter the path of your swing. ” They discovered that nobody could do it. No golfer, once his swing had started back down from the top, could do anything to change his swing before impact.

For our tempo tracks to be precise, therefore, we had to enter reaction time into the equation. The number we settled on was one-fifth of a second. That was widely accepted in scientific circles as average for humans pushing buttons or stepping on brake pedals in response to visual or aural cues. (A teenager wielding a Whack-a-Mole hammer is somewhat quicker. A senior citizen at a changing traffic signal is a bit slower.) Working again in my Final Cut Pro program, I realigned the tones. I added a fifth of a second before the first beat (takeaway) and then moved the second beat forward by a fifth of a second to signal the change of direction at the top of the swing. The third tone (impact) stayed put, since it was more of a timing target than a stimulus requiring a response."

As to whether golfers have been following the wrong ratio - Major Championship winners like Phil Mickelson, Padraig Harrington, and Darren Clarke and other Tour Players would not be using the Tour Tempo Tones if they were incorrect.

Hope that helps,

John


Dear John,

Thanks for your thorough  response. I'm glad you quoted Mike Mangini (even though I prefer Portnoy hehehe), because lots of people keep telling me in this thread that "this is golf, not music". Anyway, maybe they don't even know that "Tempo" is a musical concept, as it is "Rhythm", and if you have a good sense of tempo in music, you will have it in golf.

I understand and appreciate your explanation, as stated in your book however I still have a few questions:

First of all, what is your response to the image posted by Crapula in this thread which shows and demonstrate that the music found in your website, which should be used to acquire the feel of the 3:1 tempo, is clearly in 2:1 ratio. Show those tracks to any respected musician and they will tell you that there are 2 beats for back swing (from 1 to 3) and 1 for downswing (from 3 to 4). Of course as we have said here and demonstrated, there's no 4th tempo cause nothing happens from 4 to 1.

Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, the development of your method had three major milestones:
1- You discovered the 3:1 ratio (as we all agree) by seeing 24 frames for backswing and 8 frames for downswing on tour pros.
2- At some point you said "I'll do tones in a 3:1 ratio, so anyone can develop that tour tempo" So you created a 1 (2) 3 and 4 tones which are the basis of your method.
3- Then you might have said "I'll offset the first tone because people will take 0.2s to react to that tone, so they can actually swing on the tempo they should, following my method" Which whould be the one you created in milestone 2. In other words, if you wouldn't have offset the first tone, the people would have swing even faster, correct? Because of the time taken to react.

Now, as you might presume, Mike (Mangini or Portnoy) or any drummer, won't react to a click track, we just play on beat. Same thing for golfing in my case. If you give me a click track with 1 (2) 3 and 4, I can follow it on beat and won't need any offset, cause I won't react. Now can you please provide us with your tones without the offset, as it would be before you considered the reaction time? If your method is correct, those tones should be exactly in a 3:1 ratio and we can put it in a grid in Pro-Tools or Cubase or Final Cut, and it will show 3 units for backswing v/s 1 unit for downswing. Correct? Alternatively, if I take your practice tones as they come in your CD and put them on Protools, offset back (to the right on the grid) 0.2s the frist tone, I will have an exact 3:1 ratio?

I hope this makes sense. Please believe me that my intention is not to be stubborn, but honestly it just makes no sense to me. It would have been easier just no to post anything and continue believing what I believe, but the essence of a discussion forum is to show your point of view and let the other discuss and show their oppinion with respect. Some of the guys here think I'm right, some don't and critise me (not sure why) but I accept it. And probably you are correct in your 3:1 method, but I just don't see it. Sorry.

Best regards,

Gonzalo

Edited by Golfzalo, 19 October 2012 - 08:31 PM.


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#142 Hawkeye77

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:17 PM

Stubborn is an understatement, without getting into more appropriately descriptive words, just let it go.
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#143 Golfzalo

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostHAWKEYE77, on 19 October 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Stubborn is an understatement, without getting into more appropriately descriptive words, just let it go.

I did let it go a few days ago. I just wanted to reply to John who kindly responded to my thread.

Cheers!

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#144 HitEmTrue

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:15 PM

View PostGolfzalo, on 19 October 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

View PostHAWKEYE77, on 19 October 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Stubborn is an understatement, without getting into more appropriately descriptive words, just let it go.

I did let it go a few days ago. I just wanted to reply to John who kindly responded to my thread.

I don't understand  why you need his tones, or why any effort needs to be spent in Pro Tools.  Find a song that is the right tempo for you, and impact happens on downbeat of 2nd measure.

You'd be putting his research to work for you.


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#145 preshotroutine

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:29 PM

The Tour tempo tones have been the only thing that have helped my game! I have had lessons, spent hundreds of dollars on fittings and custom drivers and clubs and the only thing that Has lowered my scores and help me hit the ball solid was tour tempo! Plus all I have to do is follow my preshot routine which is built around the 3 to 1 ratio and turn my mind off! 9 times out of 10 when I do this my shot is solid and on target!


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#146 sblack5

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:19 AM

A 3/4 time signature is correct.......usually at around 58 to 60 bars per minute.   Sam snead used to listen to "the blue danube".   Other good tracks are the theme from harry potter, cryin by Aerosmith, and malaguena salerosa by chingon off of the kill bill 2 soundtrack.

Begin the backswing on the "1" of the first bar, and impact is on the "1" of the next.  So a downbeat starts your backswing and is impact
hit is with so much authority
that when you find it
and it sees you, it is trembling.

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#147 2bGood

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

I wish I had not read this thread as now it may be a wing though - argh.

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#148 Corona King

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 04:33 PM

This was an interesting read. Only thing that really matters is, if you follow the tones, does your "actual swing" (measured visually with a camera) correspond to 3:1. If yes, then for all intents and purposes the timing of the tones works. If it tones being closer to 2:1 actually lead to a measured visual swing that is less than 3:1 (like 2:1 or 2.5:1), then it is problematic.

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