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Tour Tempo theory mistake!!!


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#1 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:23 AM

Hi all,

A few days ago I started investigating about swing timing and tempo, since I developed some related problems with the consequences of being off-time and pushing or hooking the ball.

I found this Tour Tempo website by John Novosel, which I'm sure most of you are already familiar with. To those who are not, John states that the Pro's swing tempo is on a 3:1 ratio. That means that it takes 3 UNITS to perform the back swing from start to the top position, and 1 UNIT to perform the down swing, from the top position to impact. So far, so good. His theory was proven after analysing Pro's slow-motion videos and counting, for example, 24 frames on the back swing and 8 frames on the downswing. That is of course is a 3:1 ratio.

However, when listening to the tracks on youtube or elsewhere I found out that there's is a huge mistake / contradiction. If you analyse the tracks you can easily count (BTW I'm a drummer so I know what I'm talking about here) 1-2-3-4. 1 being the beginign of back swing, 3 being the top of the backswing / begining of downsing and 4 being the impact. Now think about this, from 1 to 3 there is only TWO UNITS, not three!!! And from 3 to 4 there is ONE UNIT. Hence the tones are in a 2:1 ratio!!!!

Ok, some of you might think I'm crazy, but the correct 3:1 ratio would mean that you start in a ZERO (not ONE), do the backswing till THREE and then hit the ball in FOUR. That would be a 3:1 ratio.

I would appreciate your comments on this, because what I understand from my analysis is that tour pros perform a swing in a 3:1 ratio and Novosel book is teaching a 2:1 ratio swing. IMHO huge mistake!

Regards,

G


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#2 TeeAce

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:36 AM

I got lot of measurements here and the typical ratio for Pros is between 74% and 76%, so 1:3 is right one. If it's 1s swing to the hit, it's 0,75 back and 0,25 down.

Of course dependent how you define transition, but we got it at the point when hands change their direction.  And never try to count it from normal speed video. Too many frames missing there

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#3 SafariThomas

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:41 AM

Shoot him a pm.. he is a member here :derisive:

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#4 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:51 AM

 TeeAce, on 11 October 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I got lot of measurements here and the typical ratio for Pros is between 74% and 76%, so 1:3 is right one. If it's 1s swing to the hit, it's 0,75 back and 0,25 down.

Of course dependent how you define transition, but we got it at the point when hands change their direction.  And never try to count it from normal speed video. Too many frames missing there

TeeAce,

Thanks for your response. I think my analysis is independent of the transition. It is on the premise that it takes you 2 units to the top and 1 unit to impact, as per the tones and that's a 2:1 ratio, not 3:1, so if you follow the tones while practising you are swinging in a 2:1 ratio, which contradicts what Novosel is saying about copying a pro swing tempo. Regarding the the frames missing, it was Novosel who based his analysis on those videos, not me.

G

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#5 TeeAce

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:55 AM

 Golfzalo, on 11 October 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

 TeeAce, on 11 October 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I got lot of measurements here and the typical ratio for Pros is between 74% and 76%, so 1:3 is right one. If it's 1s swing to the hit, it's 0,75 back and 0,25 down.

Of course dependent how you define transition, but we got it at the point when hands change their direction.  And never try to count it from normal speed video. Too many frames missing there

TeeAce,

Thanks for your response. I think my analysis is independent of the transition. It is on the premise that it takes you 2 units to the top and 1 unit to impact, as per the tones and that's a 2:1 ratio, not 3:1, so if you follow the tones while practising you are swinging in a 2:1 ratio, which contradicts what Novosel is saying about copying a pro swing tempo. Regarding the the frames missing, it was Novosel who based his analysis on those videos, not me.

G

Yep, sorry for misunderstanding Golfzalo. It is 3 steps back and one to the ball and thats 3:1, so if you got your starting point mark there, you should hear the 3rd mark after that in transition and it's 4th over all.


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#6 MDP1555

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:20 AM

Even in music time you are incorrect. A mesure starts ar Zero not 1. Take 4/4 time. It takes one fourth of a measure to finish to the first beat (the full extent of a quarter note). by your therory you could only have 3 quarter notes to a measure because you are assuming that the event starts at  the cout of 1 but it starts at zero, 1 is the end of the first quarter measure.

Same is true In time laps. An event starts at Zero and by the of count one has been in action one unit of time. So if you start at zero seconds and it takes 3 seconds for the event to reach the first stage and one more second for the event to reach its climax the ratio between fist stage and climax is 3:1

Guitarists have always under stand that time starts at Zero. drummers are always late :) just ripping

Edited by MDP1555, 11 October 2012 - 11:23 AM.


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#7 word

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

I am no musician, but I'm pretty sure Novosel has it right.

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#8 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:32 AM

 MDP1555, on 11 October 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Even in music time you are incorrect. A mesure starts ar Zero not 1. Take 4/4 time. It takes one fourth of a measure to finish to the first beat (the full extent of a quarter note). by your therory you could only have 3 quarter notes to a measure because you are assuming that the event starts at  the cout of 1 but it starts at zero, 1 is the end of the first quarter measure.

Same is true In time laps. An event starts at Zero and by the of count one has been in action one unit of time. So if you start at zero seconds and it takes 3 seconds for the event to reach the first stage and one more second for the event to reach its climax the ratio between fist stage and climax is 3:1

Guitarists have always under stand that time starts at Zero. drummers are always late :) just ripping

MDP,

Thanks for your response. I'll tell why I'm correct: You say in a 4/4 measure you start in ZERO and that is not correct, it always start in ONE, but that's is not important call it whatever. that's correct we agree, but it take 4 beats to get to the next 1 not to 4, as the tour tempo states!!! If the Tour Tempo would be 1,2,3,4 and 1...the it would be 3:1.

Let's put it in other example: When someone says: "Let's count to 3 and then it says ONE, TWO THREE!" he just counted 2 seconds!!!

I think you are not understanding my point, honestly...I am not incorrect. If you still think I'm wrong, draw it in a paper, identify 1, 3 and 4 nad check the intervals, which is the important issue.

btw...guitarrist are always out of time!!! hehehehe

G

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#9 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:34 AM

 word, on 11 October 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I am no musician, but I'm pretty sure Novosel has it right.

Elaborate your statement, because if you are "pretty sure", you might have an explanation...or you just blindly believe it

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#10 Ajlepisto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:34 AM

I was under the assumption that the sounds themselves where the moments you were supposed to time, not the intervals between them?

That makes sense in my head.


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#11 tElihu

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:36 AM

The OP has a valid point. That being said, measuring a time ratio by rhythmically saying one-two-three-four is not a very accurate method and, in and of itself, does not prove the 3:1 ratio wrong.

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#12 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:38 AM

Just in case my words are not explanatory enough, below there is some sort of a diagram to explain myself better:

1 - - - - - - - - 2 - - - - - - - - 3 - - - - - - - - 4

Ok, so Novosel says: Start on ONE, change backswing to downswing on THREE and hit on FOUR ---> count how long it takes to perform the backswing and how long to perform the downswing.

Now let's see the basis of his theory, but in FRAMES, as that's how he got the 3:1 ratio:

0 - - - - - 8 - - - - - 16 - - - - - 24 - - - - - - 32

That's three units to one unit as he says it is 24 frames for backswing and 8 frames for downswing.

(of course both diagrams are not to scale)

Is it clear now or is there something I'm really missing?

G

Edited by Golfzalo, 11 October 2012 - 11:44 AM.


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#13 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:39 AM

 tElihu, on 11 October 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

The OP has a valid point. That being said, measuring a time ratio by rhythmically saying one-two-three-four is not a very accurate method and, in and of itself, does not prove the 3:1 ratio wrong.

Listen to the musical tracks on Tour Tempo website...and count...it's that easy!

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#14 skagen

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:45 AM

If you listen to the track it goes ....

beep ----  beep beep.

There's a 1/4 note rest in there.  So it is 3:1.

Beep Rest Beep Beep
Swing Top Down Impact

Hope that makes sense.

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#15 MDP1555

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:00 PM

in music you count the intervals and allow give given amout of time for each interval. A 4/4 measure has 4 beats (4 units) intervals.Within each of these 4-1 beat units that make up a full measure there is a meriod of differentt lengths of sound that can be produced and mathmaticly be contained in that single given 4 beat measure. For instants in the common 4/4 measure there can be 4 quarter notes per measure, 2 eight notes per beat, 4 sixthinth notes per beat, 8 thirtysecond notes per beat or any combo of notes that mathmaticly euauls the same time as 4 quarter notes per measure.  So for music time to mathmaticly work each measure starts at Zero and the first beat containes every note or portion of a note that happens from Zero to the first full beat.

same is true in time laps everything that happens from Zero to One is one full unit of time. Everything that happens fron One to Two is another full unit of time so on and so on!

So if it takes three units to get to the top and another unit to get back to the impact the the ratio is 3:1

if the count starts at 1 then nothing happend before 1 then then the ratio is 2:1  but stop watches and other timing devices dot start at on the start at Zero and by the time they get to 1 the have consumed one full unit of measure.


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#16 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:03 PM

 skagen, on 11 October 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

If you listen to the track it goes ....

beep ----  beep beep.

There's a 1/4 note rest in there.  So it is 3:1.

Beep Rest Beep Beep
Swing Top Down Impact

Hope that makes sense.

Skagen,

Again as I "draw" above and following your statement:

Beep - - - - - - Rest - - - - - - Beep - - - - - - Beep

That's 2:1

Something to be 3:1 needs 4 units or intervals or 8-FRAMES as Novosel states, not four beeps.

Let's put it ANOTHER way, to be more didactic:

I have a cake and I want to share it in a 3:1 proportion. I need to cut 4 pieces (read time intervals!!) and give 3 to one guy and 1 to the other...that's a 3:1 ratio.

Again, counting from 1 to 3 is only 2 seconds, not 3!!!! Check your watch if you don't believe me.

G

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#17 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:07 PM

 MDP1555, on 11 October 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

in music you count the intervals and allow give given amout of time for each interval. A 4/4 measure has 4 beats (4 units) intervals.Within each of these 4-1 beat units that make up a full measure there is a meriod of differentt lengths of sound that can be produced and mathmaticly be contained in that single given 4 beat measure. For instants in the common 4/4 measure there can be 4 quarter notes per measure, 2 eight notes per beat, 4 sixthinth notes per beat, 8 thirtysecond notes per beat or any combo of notes that mathmaticly euauls the same time as 4 quarter notes per measure.  So for music time to mathmaticly work each measure starts at Zero and the first beat containes every note or portion of a note that happens from Zero to the first full beat.

same is true in time laps everything that happens from Zero to One is one full unit of time. Everything that happens fron One to Two is another full unit of time so on and so on!

So if it takes three units to get to the top and another unit to get back to the impact the the ratio is 3:1

if the count starts at 1 then nothing happend before 1 then then the ratio is 2:1  but stop watches and other timing devices dot start at on the start at Zero and by the time they get to 1 the have consumed one full unit of measure.

MDP,

You are still misleading the point.

Your first point about music. You are talking about a 4/4 measure. In Novosel music the impact is in four....that's the end of the measure...there's not time between 4 and the next one!!!! Please see my diagrams!!!

See what you are saying about time lapses ---> You say "everything that happens from Zero to One is one full unit of time" Does Novosel counting starts from Zero? Definitely NO. so where are the four intervals?!?!?! He only has three: 1 to 2, 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 (end of the swing)

G

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#18 tngolf22

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:10 PM

I read and used Tour Tempo with much success before switching to Slicefixer's philosophies.

I believe you have the following incorrect:

"Ok, so Novosel says: Start on ONE, change backswing to downswing on THREE and hit on FOUR ---> count how long it takes to perform the backswing and how long to perform the downswing."

The 3:1 ratio he describes is camera frame ratio (example 24:8 means it takes 24 frames for the backswing, 8 frames for the downswing).  Whether the track you choose is 21:7, 27:9 or 24:8 doesn't matter as long as it's a 3:1 ratio.  That's all you really need to know.  After that just swing, but you don't actually START on "1".  You react.  It can make a big difference in your results.  According to his book:

Beat #1:   Take the club back, in other words start the backswing RIGHT AFTER you hear beat #1.
Beat #2:  Start the downswing RIGHT AFTER you hear beat #2.

Never "time" the 1st or 2nd beats.  You react to them.

Beat #3:  This one you time.  You want to time your downswing so impact occurs right at beat #3.

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#19 crapula

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:21 PM

If you start on one and finish on four, that's a 2:1 ratio.

If you start your takeaway on ONE, then your back swing is only counted on two and three (one is the starting point so it actually counts as zero), downswing to impact is four (three because one is a zero).

If you want a 3:1 ratio, start your takeaway on ONE, then count, two three four, downswing, FIVE.


I've never used the app, but I've seen the instruction and it does seem as though it's doing a 2:1 ratio. I would like to hear some of the audio clips.
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#20 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:21 PM

 tngolf22, on 11 October 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I read and used Tour Tempo with much success before switching to Slicefixer's philosophies.

I believe you have the following incorrect:

"Ok, so Novosel says: Start on ONE, change backswing to downswing on THREE and hit on FOUR ---> count how long it takes to perform the backswing and how long to perform the downswing."

The 3:1 ratio he describes is camera frame ratio (example 24:8 means it takes 24 frames for the backswing, 8 frames for the downswing).  Whether the track you choose is 21:7, 27:9 or 24:8 doesn't matter as long as it's a 3:1 ratio.  That's all you really need to know.  After that just swing, but you don't actually START on "1".  You react.  It can make a big difference in your results.  According to his book:

Beat #1:   Take the club back, in other words start the backswing RIGHT AFTER you hear beat #1.
Beat #2:  Start the downswing RIGHT AFTER you hear beat #2.

Never "time" the 1st or 2nd beats.  You react to them.

Beat #3:  This one you time.  You want to time your downswing so impact occurs right at beat #3.

tn,

Thanks for your response.

I understand your point, and I'm not arguing he's theory about 3:1 in pro's swing taken from the 24/8 frames ratio, I'm just arguing that there's a mistake by thinking that if you counts 1-2-3 and 4, that's a 3:! ratio.

As far as I understand he brings forward 0.2 secs the first beep because that's what it take you to react, but still he's doing a 2:1 ratio overall tempo.

Please listen to the music he has, as they are intended to make the tempo unconscious in your mind: http://www.tourtempo...3s/tracks2.html

Those are on time, course you don't have to react, just listen and get the timing.

I'm not saying all you are saying is wrong, actually is correct and I understand it well, but still I think you are not seeing my point.

G


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#21 Golfzalo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:23 PM

 crapula, on 11 October 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

If you start on one and finish on four, that's a 2:1 ratio.

If you start your takeaway on ONE, then your back swing is only counted on two and three (one is the starting point so it actually counts as zero), downswing to impact is four (three because one is a zero).

If you want a 3:1 ratio, start your takeaway on ONE, then count, two three four, downswing, FIVE.


I've never used the app, but I've seen the instruction and it does seem as though it's doing a 2:1 ratio. I would like to hear some of the audio clips.

Thanks!!!

http://www.tourtempo...3s/tracks2.html

Here they are.

G

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#22 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:23 PM

just a thought but the instructions note that the beats are reactionary and not meant to time the swing to the beat. so you start your swing when you hear the first tone, and instead of timing the transition to the third tone, you wait to hear the tone and then make the transition. there will automatically be a slight delay from hearing the tone and then reacting as opposed to timing the downswing to match up with the third tone.

i would think by your theory this would mean the downswing is happening on fourth note and impact at 5 which would be 3 : 1 using your theory. either way i'd trust the tour tempo as it has helped me and i go back to it whenever i get a little out of synch. there is also a lot of research in this so i would think there 3:1 is pretty accurate.

Edited by HoosierMizuno, 11 October 2012 - 12:27 PM.

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#23 gators78

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:40 PM

So, first of all John never tells you to count out loud, the tones he uses are in 3:1 ratio and set accordingly.

Secondly, John didn't develop this from audible tones to begin with, he developed it from counting video frames on golf swings and then tied tones to it.

Third, if you actually read his books he's had these ideas verified at a few universities.

Fourth, I suggest buying the material rather than looking at it on YouTube.

Fifth, it's not that hard, the beep starts at the beginning of the 1 count not on it.
Beep---one count---one count---one count---Beep---one count---Beep.

Lastly, if you listen to those 3:1 tones and think that's a 2:1 ratio I have no idea what your explination is when you listen to a 2:1 ratio

Edited by gators78, 11 October 2012 - 12:41 PM.

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#24 crapula

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:42 PM

 Golfzalo, on 11 October 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

 crapula, on 11 October 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

If you start on one and finish on four, that's a 2:1 ratio.

If you start your takeaway on ONE, then your back swing is only counted on two and three (one is the starting point so it actually counts as zero), downswing to impact is four (three because one is a zero).

If you want a 3:1 ratio, start your takeaway on ONE, then count, two three four, downswing, FIVE.


I've never used the app, but I've seen the instruction and it does seem as though it's doing a 2:1 ratio. I would like to hear some of the audio clips.

Thanks!!!

http://www.tourtempo...3s/tracks2.html

Here they are.

G

Wow, that seems really slow (143 BPM).
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#25 General Ursus

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

 MDP1555, on 11 October 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Even in music time you are incorrect. A mesure starts ar Zero not 1. Take 4/4 time. It takes one fourth of a measure to finish to the first beat (the full extent of a quarter note). by your therory you could only have 3 quarter notes to a measure because you are assuming that the event starts at  the cout of 1 but it starts at zero, 1 is the end of the first quarter measure.

Same is true In time laps. An event starts at Zero and by the of count one has been in action one unit of time. So if you start at zero seconds and it takes 3 seconds for the event to reach the first stage and one more second for the event to reach its climax the ratio between fist stage and climax is 3:1

Guitarists have always under stand that time starts at Zero. drummers are always late :) just ripping

A measure starts on 1.  You have to allot time for the 4th

i.e.

1-ee-and-a-2-ee-and-a-3-ee-and-a-4-ee-and-a

if it started on zero,,, you'd have 5 beats to a measure ...

0-ee-and-a-1-ee-and-a-2-ee-and-a-3-ee-and-a-4-ee-and-a


(studied to be a music teacher,,, played band from 3rd to 2nd year of college.)

Edited by General Ursus, 11 October 2012 - 12:53 PM.


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#26 crapula

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:52 PM

 gators78, on 11 October 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Fifth, it's not that hard, the beep starts at the beginning of the 1 count not on it.
Beep---one count---one count---one count---Beep---one count---Beep.


What? You can't count like that. So the second beep is the transition and the third beep is the finish? You just made it more confusing.

No one is arguing that the pros have a 3:1 ratio, I've gone step by step on videos and I agree, 3:1. The argument is if you follow the rhythm of the music and start on 1, end on four, your swing is a total of three beats. 1 to 2 is ONE beat, 2 to 3 is ONE beat, 3 to four is ONE beat... 3 beats (4 to 1 would be another beat).

This actually has nothing to do with music, because in music if you play four quarter notes the last one ends just before the next measure. But if this tour tempo says impact is AT FOUR, then four isn't really counted as a beat. If four isn't counted as a beat then you have 3 beats which would be a 2:1 ratio... 2 quarter notes back swing and 1 quarter note down swing.

When counting frames you start at frame 0, if we are counting starting at 1 then that shifts everything over, so you have to start counting after a 1/3 of the back swing has occurred.



0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16   17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24   (tansition) 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32
                        1                                      2                                        3                                                              4

That is where the beats have to be for it to be a 3:1 ratio.

Edited by crapula, 11 October 2012 - 12:58 PM.

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#27 uscheese

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

Hey, did you hear about the drummer who finished high school?
Me neither.

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#28 HitEmTrue

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

 Golfzalo, on 11 October 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

 tElihu, on 11 October 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

The OP has a valid point. That being said, measuring a time ratio by rhythmically saying one-two-three-four is not a very accurate method and, in and of itself, does not prove the 3:1 ratio wrong.

Listen to the musical tracks on Tour Tempo website...and count...it's that easy!

If you use a 6/8 time sequence...with | 1 2 3 | 4 5 6 |, starting the back swing on the down beat of 1, and FINISHING the downswing on the down beat of the 2nd measure (beat 4), you are correct, that would be a 2/1 ratio.

If you look at the video of the Micro Player page, at about the 2:46 mark.  It is in slow motion, and it is a 3:1 ratio, 4/4 time.   | 1 2 3 4 | 5 6 7 8 |   backswing starts on beat one, top of backswing on beat 4, and impact on beat 5.  Beats 2 and 3 are silent.

OK, now I've heard the music from his link.  I have no idea what the specific instructions are, but to get 3:1 ratio you have to start backswing on down beat of beat one, start downswing at downbeat of 4, and impact at down beat of next measure.

Edited by HitEmTrue, 11 October 2012 - 01:03 PM.


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#29 gators78

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:59 PM

 crapula, on 11 October 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

 gators78, on 11 October 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Fifth, it's not that hard, the beep starts at the beginning of the 1 count not on it.
Beep---one count---one count---one count---Beep---one count---Beep.


What? You can't count like that. So the second beep is the transition and the third beep is the finish? You just made it more confusing.

No one is arguing that the pros have a 3:1 ratio, I've gone step by step on videos and I agree, 3:1. The argument is if you follow the rhythm of the music and start on 1, end on four, your swing is a total of three beats. 1 to 2 is ONE beat, 2 to 3 is ONE beat, 3 to four is ONE beat... 3 beats (4 to 1 would be another beat).

This actually has nothing to do with music, because in music if you play four quarter notes the last one ends just before the next measure. But if this tour tempo says impact is AT FOUR, then four isn't really counted as a beat.

O I'll put it this way if you were looking at it on a video.

BEEP --- 8 frames --- 8 frames --- 8 frames --- BEEP top of backswing ---  8 frames --- BEEP impact
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#30 dlam

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

IMO 3/4 time signature would have made better tracks than 4/4.


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