TomWishon, on 11 October 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:
alwaysatrueswinger, on 10 October 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:
A friend of mine went to an indoor center here in Norway and they told him that the simulator they used in combination with high speed cameras was a much better tool in custom fitting indoors than Trackman. They told him that Trackman only worked fully when testing outdoors on a driving range where you could see the proper ballflight.
Since 2005 our company has had a close relationship with Dr. Fredrik Tuxen, the engineer who created the Doppler Radar telemetry for the TrackMan launch monitor. During that time Fredrik has been to our company and we've been to his as we continue to share information from both of our companies' research.
What makes TrackMan so good and so far ahead of any other unit are two things - One, Doppler Radar is so far ahead of any other sensor systems used in launch monitors or golf simulators in being able to accurately and repeatedly read the flight of the golf ball. Sensor systems for other units range from camera to laser to ultrasonic to infrared and none of them can read the ball nearly as accurately in flight as Doppler Radar.
Two, Fredrik's experience with being able to program Doppler Radar to accurately read the ball in flight is by far more advanced than anyone who has tried to apply this technology to objects in flight. before joining TrackMan, Fredrik was one of the world's top engineers in creating Doppler Radar systems to read the flight characteristics of bullets and missiles for companies that manufactured the ordnance used in military weapons systems. Quite simply if Fredrik was one of the best in being able to track a supersonic projectile in flight, applying that to a golf ball is probably considered "child's play" to someone of his intellect and experience.
The reason Fredrik left his position to join TrackMan was, as he told me, because he wanted to apply his expertise to something other than products designed to wage war.
Yes, TrackMan indoors is not exactly like TrackMan outdoors. Trackman outdoors actually reads the flight of the ball all the way from launch to landing. Trackman indoors reads the ball for 8 feet, then makes calculations based on what it has seen in that 8 feet. compare that to all the other non Doppler Radar units which regardless of being used indoors or outdoors, only reads the ball for a few INCHES and then makes calculations.
We've used TrackMan both in and outdoors with our robot. In hitting the same golf club with the same shot set up parameters with the robot, the results we see indoors vs outdoors only vary a little in the angle of descent. Even the projected carry distance is uncannily accurate between in and outdoors. Valuable fitting parameters such as launch angle, spin, ball speed, horizontal dispersion, path, face angle, angle of attack do not vary indoors vs outdoors because these things are ordained within 8 feet of launch.
Bottom line? the person at this place you visited quite simply does not know what he is talking about. Period.
TOM
Hi Tom.
The person that don't know what he is talking about migth actually be me.
I work at an indoor golfcenter in Oslo Norway, and what the OP is telling you, seems to be something i have said.
However he left something out. We are not just using high speed cams at our center, we use the PGA Tour Simulators from AboutGolf.
As you probably are aware of, these simulators are exctremly accurate.
That is if you use the balls that come with the system with the special print. We use the Callaway Tour (iz). These balls have a special printing on them that is the reference points for the high speed cams.
The cams measure how fast these printed lines move as the ball spin, and as a result you get physical measurement of ball spin. Both back spin and side spin down to the individual rpm.
The result is amazing. You can hit cut slice, push hook, draws, fades, slices, hooks and any other combination of shot types.
When custumers come to me and ask me if indoor fitting is accurate enough, i tell them that it depends on the system the fitter use to measure the golf ball.
When it comes to trackman i tell customers that it is very good for outdoor fitting, and ok for indoor fitting. If used inndoors you just can't trust the data 100%.
Outside it's a great system because it tracks the ball from the ball is hit until it lands, giving the fitter excellent data.
Outdoors i have used the trackman for fitting at PING's fitting center in Gainsborough England, learning about it from the dedicated staff there. I found the trackman system to be great for outdoor fitting.
Indoors though the doppler radar has it's limits. The two most known radars using this tech are the trackman and flightscope radars. Indoors they are quite simular, but outdoors the trackman is alot better. You can take it with you and use it where you want, while the flightscope is a lot more stationary, and only tracked the ball for 3 seconds when we used it. Trackman tracks the entire ball flight.
I have intimate knowlage of the flightscope radar (kudu) and it's bigger brother that was the heart of the radar based older generation simulators from AboutGolf (cheetah).
I have used both systems for customfitting, and even though they help getting the customer the right clubs, they can get you into trouble if you trust the data they give you 100%.
Push hooks or draws have a tendency to be read as pure push shots.
Pull slices have a tendency to be read as pure pulls.
Four years ago we upgraded 3 of our radarbased AboutGolf simulators to 3 track. This was the first high speed cam sim from Aboutgolf.
It was an eye opener to stand on the Pga simulator hitting shots, and then move to the doppler radar sim next to it hitting the same shots getting different results.
On the PGA sim, all shot types were recreated accurately, while on the radar they were not.
It was good fun in the beginning getting the pro's and the tournament players in on the PGA sims, having them shape some shots and see their reactions as the sim reproduced their expected shots.
They were suprised and very positive afterwards.
Last October we upgraded all 7 sims to the newest version of the PGA Tour Simulator from About Golf.
In my opinion after working with doppler radar systems and the PGA sim side by side for several years, is that there is no contest when accurasy is conserned.
The PGA sim is miles ahead.
If you use the "metallic" paint on the golfballs on trackman or flightscope, i'll take your word for it that it improves the radars readings, but does it manage to measure ball spinn, or does it still need to calculate it via software using angels and speeds of the club head and ball?
Most other systems estimate ballspinn. As long as you use the special ball with markings, to my knowlage, no other system measure ball spinn as accurately as the PGA simulator.
I trust the PGA Tour Simulator. I have a cut slice in my sving. The PGA sim reads it perfectly, the doppler radar reads it as a pull. That is the difference between a system that measures ball spinn and a system that estimates spinn.
So back to the OP's question. Do you have to get customfit outdoors?
In my opinon no you don't.
Indoor fitting is way better than no fitting if you are in the hands of a good custom fitter.
If the custom fitter use radar based systems he has to be a little carefull, not trusting the data 100 % or he might end up fitting a customer with a push hook with draw clubs.
That happend to an individual at another center in Norway after getting custom fitted indoors on trackman. Those clubs did not improve his game to put it mildy.
A push hook indoors will read as a push on radar systems. (Have not tried hitting push hooks with metallic paint balls, as you say, that might help)
If you can get custom fit on The PGA Tour Simualtor, spinn is measured not estimated, giveing the fitter excellent data.
There is also one aspect of inndoor fitting that helps the fitter. Especially if you are comparing clubs and shafts.
There is no wind indoors.
There is only the customer and the data. There is no interference by mother nature.
Outdoors wind will influence the data in regards to dispersion, both sideways and for carry distance.
If it's raining in addition to wind mother nature gives even more interference.
Both rain and wind can influence a coparison test between different clubs/shafts.
You can say that indoor fitting actually is better than outdoor fitting, even if you use a trackman outdoors, because of the "mother nature" interference issue.
That is if you use a system like the PGA Tour Simulator from AboutGolf.
I don't know Tom if you have any hands on experience with the the PGA simulator. But from your posts here it sounds like you havent tried it as of yet.
And if you ever get to try it, use the specially marked balls and be amazed by the way it replicates you golf shots.
Period:-)
Regards Simen Fulland Customgolf Oslo Norway
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