1simen1, on 03 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:
The person that don't know what he is talking about migth actually be me.
I work at an indoor golfcenter in Oslo Norway, and what the OP is telling you, seems to be something i have said.
However he left something out. We are not just using high speed cams at our center, we use the PGA Tour Simulators from AboutGolf.
As you probably are aware of, these simulators are exctremly accurate.
When custumers come to me and ask me if indoor fitting is accurate enough, i tell them that it depends on the system the fitter use to measure the golf ball.
When it comes to trackman i tell customers that it is very good for outdoor fitting, and ok for indoor fitting. If used inndoors you just can't trust the data 100%.
Indoors though the doppler radar has it's limits.
I have used both systems for customfitting, and even though they help getting the customer the right clubs, they can get you into trouble if you trust the data they give you 100%.
It was an eye opener to stand on the Pga simulator hitting shots, and then move to the doppler radar sim next to it hitting the same shots getting different results.
On the PGA sim, all shot types were recreated accurately, while on the radar they were not.
It was good fun in the beginning getting the pro's and the tournament players in on the PGA sims, having them shape some shots and see their reactions as the sim reproduced their expected shots.
They were suprised and very positive afterwards.
Last October we upgraded all 7 sims to the newest version of the PGA Tour Simulator from About Golf.
In my opinion after working with doppler radar systems and the PGA sim side by side for several years, is that there is no contest when accurasy is conserned.
The PGA sim is miles ahead.
If you use the "metallic" paint on the golfballs on trackman or flightscope, i'll take your word for it that it improves the radars readings, but does it manage to measure ball spinn, or does it still need to calculate it via software using angels and speeds of the club head and ball?
Most other systems estimate ballspinn. As long as you use the special ball with markings, to my knowlage, no other system measure ball spinn as accurately as the PGA simulator.
I trust the PGA Tour Simulator. I have a cut slice in my sving. The PGA sim reads it perfectly, the doppler radar reads it as a pull. That is the difference between a system that measures ball spinn and a system that estimates spinn.
So back to the OP's question. Do you have to get customfit outdoors?
In my opinon no you don't.
Indoor fitting is way better than no fitting if you are in the hands of a good custom fitter.
Regards Simen Fulland Customgolf Oslo Norway
I am glad that you took the time to explain not only that you have the About Golf simulator, but that you also took the time to talk about your experience so that I can know that you are most definitely far more experienced and more knowledgeable about this matter than the majority of people in this field.
My comments of course were based on the fact that the vast majority of retail golf stores do not use the About Golf simulator. These other simulators are not that accurate for the specific fitting related parameters that TrackMan and FlightScope record. Other simulators do not record some of the other important parameters in a shot or swing that can have a bearing on making good fitting decisions.
So since the OP did not say that you were using the About Golf simulator and since the OP did not provide any information to allow me to know that you personally have a great deal of experience in this area, I was led to believe that the situation the OP referred to was the same as it is in so many other retail golf shops which use deficient equipment operated by people who in no way have close to your experience.
In my many years in clubfitting, I have continually seen that the vast majority of golf retail stores are very poor in terms of the knowledge, training and expertise of the people who sell the clubs to the golfers. It is so predominant this way that I made the mistake of assuming that your operation was just like the others. And so I am glad you responded to clearly prove you are qualified and equipped to do a good job in fitting.
I will still say that it is more possible for camera based units to get fooled into making less than accurate spin measurements than doppler radar units that have good software behind them. However, I will also say that I do not personally know if or how the About Golf unit overcomes these potential problems associated with cameras only seeing a ball for a very short time after impact, as well as cameras typically only being able to see in 2D and not 3D when they read the ball after impact. No matter how fast the camera, if it sees in 2D, which most do, it cannot see an azimuth change in the shot which then translates into a less than accurate calculation of the spin from the very short time the camera sees the ball.
On the other hand, spin is only one of the elements one looks at when doing a fitting analysis, so that's not as big of a deal as one might think.
One of the main reasons I could tell that you know what you are talking about and therefore why you distance yourself ahead of the majority of people is because you said you know that good fitting is more about the fitting knowledge and fitting experience and that you have to sometimes ignore what the telemetry equipment tells you in the analysis. That skill to have the knowledge and the experience to know these things is far more valuable than any telemetry equipment, no matter who makes the equipment.
I do sincerely thank you for posting so that I could know a lot more about your specific individual situation, both with the About Golf simulator but moreso that you showed that you do know what you are doing. Among all the people who work in fitting situations it most definitely does sound like you are far more advanced in your knowledge and experience, so from that, I am sure that your fitting customers are in very good hands.