94 replies to this topic

[Sean25rp]

isaacbm, on 04 November 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

SamW, on 23 October 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I said I don't believe it... but there again I'm from the UK and scratch-2 hcap is a way rarer here because of the handicap system not being based on averages... you could have the year of your life and shoot par at 20 times in a row in competitions at Carnoustie and still only come down from 5 to 3..... CONGU is a harsh system in category 1.

Is this actually a fact or an exaggeration?  If this is really the case then your system is more messed up than the one here and that's saying something!

In theory it's possible but unlikely. You would have to be unlucky in terms of standard scratch score (SSS) for the day being low every time. For example if the par for the course is 72 but the SSS is 73 then that means you should play the course in one over your handicap. So a 3 handicap should shoot 4 over or 76. However, the SSS can change both up or down in a tourney depending on how the field does.

In the example above a 5 handicap shooting level par (72) actually returns a nett score 6 better than the SSS (73) so would get cut 6 X 0.1 = 0.6 so would then be a 4.4. However, if the SSS for the day becomes 71 then they would only get cut 4 X 0.1 and be a 4.6. Thus you can see that the SSS would have to fall to 68 for those 20 tourneys meaning the player was only cut 0.1 each time and consequently 2 strokes overall for a 5 to 3 handicap change.

I should say that it's unlikely to see the SSS move more than 1 or 2 up or down from it's norm. At least I've never seen it change much more than that. Hope that all makes sense.

[isaacbm]

Sean25rp, on 06 November 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

isaacbm, on 04 November 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

SamW, on 23 October 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I said I don't believe it... but there again I'm from the UK and scratch-2 hcap is a way rarer here because of the handicap system not being based on averages... you could have the year of your life and shoot par at 20 times in a row in competitions at Carnoustie and still only come down from 5 to 3..... CONGU is a harsh system in category 1.

Is this actually a fact or an exaggeration?  If this is really the case then your system is more messed up than the one here and that's saying something!

In theory it's possible but unlikely. You would have to be unlucky in terms of standard scratch score (SSS) for the day being low every time. For example if the par for the course is 72 but the SSS is 73 then that means you should play the course in one over your handicap. So a 3 handicap should shoot 4 over or 76. However, the SSS can change both up or down in a tourney depending on how the field does.

In the example above a 5 handicap shooting level par (72) actually returns a nett score 6 better than the SSS (73) so would get cut 6 X 0.1 = 0.6 so would then be a 4.4. However, if the SSS for the day becomes 71 then they would only get cut 4 X 0.1 and be a 4.6. Thus you can see that the SSS would have to fall to 68 for those 20 tourneys meaning the player was only cut 0.1 each time and consequently 2 strokes overall for a 5 to 3 handicap change.

I should say that it's unlikely to see the SSS move more than 1 or 2 up or down from it's norm. At least I've never seen it change much more than that. Hope that all makes sense.

I'm sorry, I still don't understand.  How is your original handicap determined?  How many rounds do you have to have to even establish a handicap?

I realize the USGA system can allow for a lot of sand bagging and reverse sand bagging because so much is left up to the individual.  It's not policed at all.  But your system seems even stranger to me....

[Sean25rp]

isaacbm, on 08 November 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Sean25rp, on 06 November 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

isaacbm, on 04 November 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

SamW, on 23 October 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I said I don't believe it... but there again I'm from the UK and scratch-2 hcap is a way rarer here because of the handicap system not being based on averages... you could have the year of your life and shoot par at 20 times in a row in competitions at Carnoustie and still only come down from 5 to 3..... CONGU is a harsh system in category 1.

Is this actually a fact or an exaggeration?  If this is really the case then your system is more messed up than the one here and that's saying something!

In theory it's possible but unlikely. You would have to be unlucky in terms of standard scratch score (SSS) for the day being low every time. For example if the par for the course is 72 but the SSS is 73 then that means you should play the course in one over your handicap. So a 3 handicap should shoot 4 over or 76. However, the SSS can change both up or down in a tourney depending on how the field does.

In the example above a 5 handicap shooting level par (72) actually returns a nett score 6 better than the SSS (73) so would get cut 6 X 0.1 = 0.6 so would then be a 4.4. However, if the SSS for the day becomes 71 then they would only get cut 4 X 0.1 and be a 4.6. Thus you can see that the SSS would have to fall to 68 for those 20 tourneys meaning the player was only cut 0.1 each time and consequently 2 strokes overall for a 5 to 3 handicap change.

I should say that it's unlikely to see the SSS move more than 1 or 2 up or down from it's norm. At least I've never seen it change much more than that. Hope that all makes sense.

I'm sorry, I still don't understand.  How is your original handicap determined?  How many rounds do you have to have to even establish a handicap?

I realize the USGA system can allow for a lot of sand bagging and reverse sand bagging because so much is left up to the individual.  It's not policed at all.  But your system seems even stranger to me....

At most clubs you submit 3 cards after joining. They usually average these 3 scores (to par for the course) to get your handicap.

[hebron1427]

the major point i see in the euro system is that every score counts toward your handicap. in the US, it's the 10 best out of your last 20.

[OpusX20]

MtlJeff, on 26 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

i see more threads accusing the general population of this site of being dishonest, then i see where people make ultra impressive claims

I remember a thread with a voting option a couple of years ago called "how far do you hit your 7 iron". A lot of people responded, and the average was 160-170yds. Pretty decent but hardly a gargantuan distance. I think for the most part people are honest here. Especially those who've been members a while.

Start a "what's your handicap" thread (which we've also done) and most of the first responses are "well i'm a 8 unlike everyone else here".

Usually the posts assuming everyone else is a 0 outnumber the people who actually claim to be a zero.

This pretty much covers it right here.

[irishiain]

hebron1427, on 08 November 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

the major point i see in the euro system is that every score counts toward your handicap. in the US, it's the 10 best out of your last 20.

Every tournament score, not casual rounds like in the US.

[hebron1427]

irishiain, on 08 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

hebron1427, on 08 November 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

the major point i see in the euro system is that every score counts toward your handicap. in the US, it's the 10 best out of your last 20.

Every tournament score, not casual rounds like in the US.

Do casual count at all?

[Boogaloo_Jones]

The ones claiming to be 0-2 handicaps here are Chuck Norris's illegitimate children.  They are all beasts on the golf course and I for one would never want to play them for fear of being beaten.  That or being roundhoused to death.

[hebron1427]

ionakana511, on 09 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

The ones claiming to be 0-2 handicaps here are Chuck Norris's illegitimate children.  They are all beasts on the golf course and I for one would never want to play them for fear of being beaten.  That or being roundhoused to death.

like the new avatar....how long until this one gets pulled?

[Boogaloo_Jones]

hebron1427, on 09 November 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

ionakana511, on 09 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

The ones claiming to be 0-2 handicaps here are Chuck Norris's illegitimate children.  They are all beasts on the golf course and I for one would never want to play them for fear of being beaten.  That or being roundhoused to death.

like the new avatar....how long until this one gets pulled?

I hope not any time soon...this seems a little more appropriate though I like the other one I had.  If not, I'll have to move on to wifey #5.

[irishiain]

hebron1427, on 09 November 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

irishiain, on 08 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

hebron1427, on 08 November 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

the major point i see in the euro system is that every score counts toward your handicap. in the US, it's the 10 best out of your last 20.

Every tournament score, not casual rounds like in the US.

Do casual count at all?

No.

[hebron1427]

irishiain, on 09 November 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

hebron1427, on 09 November 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

irishiain, on 08 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

hebron1427, on 08 November 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

the major point i see in the euro system is that every score counts toward your handicap. in the US, it's the 10 best out of your last 20.

Every tournament score, not casual rounds like in the US.

Do casual count at all?

No.

Then that makes no sense. While I know plenty of top ams here don't put in anything other than tournament scores, I don't play enough tournament rounds in a year to establish a handicap.

[sackgolf]

I find the whole topic very interesting.  First of all, ALL we actually have are handicap INDEXES not handicaps.  You establish a handicap ONCE you match your index up to the slope/rating of the course which is provided by each course typically.  Second, handicaps(yes I know it should be indexes but I'll use handicaps for everyone here) are setup as your potential score not your actual score.  Most people will never shoot their "handicap" everytime out.  Probably only 1 or 2 out of 10 rounds.  Back to the topic, sorry to blather, I do believe that people on HERE tell the truth but let's be honest, we've all met/heard of people who claim to be a scratch or 1 handicap and fire a ho-hum 82 or 85.  Not to sayt they couldn't be a scratch or 1 but it can be difficult to believe.  Any thoughts?

[fore_life]

sackgolf, on 13 November 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

I find the whole topic very interesting.  First of all, ALL we actually have are handicap INDEXES not handicaps.  You establish a handicap ONCE you match your index up to the slope/rating of the course which is provided by each course typically.  Second, handicaps(yes I know it should be indexes but I'll use handicaps for everyone here) are setup as your potential score not your actual score.  Most people will never shoot their "handicap" everytime out.  Probably only 1 or 2 out of 10 rounds.  Back to the topic, sorry to blather, I do believe that people on HERE tell the truth but let's be honest, we've all met/heard of people who claim to be a scratch or 1 handicap and fire a ho-hum 82 or 85.  Not to sayt they couldn't be a scratch or 1 but it can be difficult to believe.  Any thoughts?

My handicap is at a +1.7 right now and I have scores ranging from 66-83, I never know what player is gonna show up haha

[isaacbm]

fore_life, on 14 November 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

sackgolf, on 13 November 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

I find the whole topic very interesting.  First of all, ALL we actually have are handicap INDEXES not handicaps.  You establish a handicap ONCE you match your index up to the slope/rating of the course which is provided by each course typically.  Second, handicaps(yes I know it should be indexes but I'll use handicaps for everyone here) are setup as your potential score not your actual score.  Most people will never shoot their "handicap" everytime out.  Probably only 1 or 2 out of 10 rounds.  Back to the topic, sorry to blather, I do believe that people on HERE tell the truth but let's be honest, we've all met/heard of people who claim to be a scratch or 1 handicap and fire a ho-hum 82 or 85.  Not to sayt they couldn't be a scratch or 1 but it can be difficult to believe.  Any thoughts?

My handicap is at a +1.7 right now and I have scores ranging from 66-83, I never know what player is gonna show up haha

Mines almost +4 and my range this year was 64-89!  LOL  25 shot range....  good scramble partner.

[MtlJeff]

^^^^i've seen your swing, how did you shoot 89?

[isaacbm]

MtlJeff, on 17 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

^^^^i've seen your swing, how did you shoot 89?

I got really mad on a hole and stick handled it around and then walked off the course.  Then I realized I shouldn't do that so I came back and put the ball back down and finished out.  You should have seen us figuring out the total.  We figured I hit it while moving at least 4 times and then I put the ball in my pocket so there's that.  I was on in 2 and we added it up to 16.  this was in a tourney.

  I'd  just put our 17 year old  dog down in the middle of the night and I was on no sleep and was acting pretty unprofessionally...  I probably shouldn't have played but it was my first tourney after getting my am status back and I didn't want to withdraw.

I did birdie 18 though and then was 4 under through 8 the next day in a wind storm and finished out with the low round of the day.  I made the cut on the number and shot 1 over for the next 2 days and finished in the top 20 somehow....  It was so weird...

for handicap purposes, I entered a 3 for a differential in the computer because I doubled a couple of other holes too.
So my three differentials in that tournament were 3,-2-1and0 even though I shot 89 one day!!  LOL!

[hebron1427]

can someone actually tell me how you get better when you can't find anywhere to  cut strokes? I'm 0.5 and it's as low as i've ever been. i can never get over the hump. i putt well, i shoot 72. i putt poorly but hit GIRs, i shoot 72. i drive the ball well and chip well, i shoot 72. they never all show up on the same day, and, even if they did, i'd find some way to screw it up. isaacbm, what do you do to get from 0.5 to +4?

[isaacbm]

hebron1427, on 18 December 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

can someone actually tell me how you get better when you can't find anywhere to  cut strokes? I'm 0.5 and it's as low as i've ever been. i can never get over the hump. i putt well, i shoot 72. i putt poorly but hit GIRs, i shoot 72. i drive the ball well and chip well, i shoot 72. they never all show up on the same day, and, even if they did, i'd find some way to screw it up. isaacbm, what do you do to get from 0.5 to +4?

I hate to say this but you could just be maxed out.

I would look to strategy/course management.  I would look at practicing more from 40-50 feet ( i usually have about 10 of these shots per round whether it's lag putts, chips or bunker shots).

Getting under the scratch level is pretty hard to define.  You pretty much have to do everything just a little better than you already do.  Unless there's some glaring weakness in your game or you can only hit it 245 yards...

I would under no circumstance look towards improving your golf swing.

What else can you tell me about your game?

[MileHighClub]

kg92lefty, on 26 September 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Maybe they are, maybe they arent. All I know is that of the people claiming to be 0 or better that Ive seen or played with, about half actually are.

Yep.  The truth is revealed on the course.

[SOONERMAGIC]

I think the common misconception is that you have to shoot 69-74 non stop to be a 0.0.  Thats not the case, a lot depends on where you play, and how well in combination with the rating/slope.  Im currently a 0.0 and was a +0.4 at one time.  I have a few rounds a year in the 60s/under par, but not regularly. I post 80% of my scores, the ones I dont post are incomplete rounds (many days I bounce out of the office and play 5-7 holes before sunset.), rounds where I was drinking heavily, or tournaments as I let the TGA or USGA post them.

Interesting topic, but I have played with a few WRXr's here in TX as well as when I lived in Orlando.  The ones I knew who were claiming to be scratch, were scratch and were playing qualifiers/tourneys along side me.  So to answer, yes I believe most of the folks on here, and being the internet its a little tough to tell how someones game is with the stroke of a few keys.

As you can see my low is 69, high is 85, and scoring average is 76.7.  Which for someone working 50hrs a week who didn't start playing golf until 2006 is nothing to shake a stick at.  The only days I wish I had more time to practive are the days I tee it up with Stratton Nolen (member at my course, or should I say, I am a member at his course).  Its amazing when you realize what daily practice/dedication can do to your golf game.  

[SOONERMAGIC]

TheKid718, on 26 September 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

The best to some (and worst to others) part about golf is that it is a game of integrity within yourself. To claim that you are a zero when you shot over par consistently, you're lying not only to everyone, but yourself. Worse case especially when you claim to be a zero, someone wants to golf with you and they see just what a "zero" you are. Happened a lot at our club. Be truthful, to yourself, and save the embarrassment for later! Haha. With that being said, I do play to a zero handicap. Believe me or not, I'll see you on the course for proof.

Whoa.... settle down there...

I think you need to do some reading on how the handicaps in the US are calculated.  Your understanding of how a handicap is calculated is pretty off.  The majority of 0 hcp players have more rounds over par than under par.  If you shot 72 on any course rated over 72 every single day you would be a + handicap, not scratch.

[MtlJeff]

isaacbm, on 18 December 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

MtlJeff, on 17 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

^^^^i've seen your swing, how did you shoot 89?

I got really mad on a hole and stick handled it around and then walked off the course.  Then I realized I shouldn't do that so I came back and put the ball back down and finished out.  You should have seen us figuring out the total.  We figured I hit it while moving at least 4 times and then I put the ball in my pocket so there's that.  I was on in 2 and we added it up to 16.  this was in a tourney.

  I'd  just put our 17 year old  dog down in the middle of the night and I was on no sleep and was acting pretty unprofessionally...  I probably shouldn't have played but it was my first tourney after getting my am status back and I didn't want to withdraw.

I did birdie 18 though and then was 4 under through 8 the next day in a wind storm and finished out with the low round of the day.  I made the cut on the number and shot 1 over for the next 2 days and finished in the top 20 somehow....  It was so weird...

for handicap purposes, I entered a 3 for a differential in the computer because I doubled a couple of other holes too.
So my three differentials in that tournament were 3,-2-1and0 even though I shot 89 one day!!  LOL!

Haha....i figure it would be darn near impossible for you to post a legit 89 on a normal course

I shot an 88 in our club championship this year without losing a ball or making worse then double. I hit it into 6 greenside bunkers IIRC and made double 4 times. I was off a 1 then so not as good as you for sure. But i thought after that round that it's the absolute worst someone could play without there being like a 12 on the card

[hebron1427]

Isaac, my game can v be schizophrenic but in general...big drives, average about 290 off the tee. nothing really accurate, though, and I don't hit the driver that much really because I didn't often need to. my irons are longer than the driver, and my 150club is aPW. I hit my 7 up to 200' but usually more like 185-190. I don't hit many GIR, which is probably due to bad driving than bad iron play. I have great short game for an amateur. average 30.5  putts per round. my wedge play is usually as good as most tour pros, because it's about the only thing I ever practice consistently. in the summer,I go in my back yard after the kids go to sleep.


planning and mental game is not great, but since I'm not great off the tee, it doesn't matter. most of my holes are scrambles anyway. last round I played,I shot 75 with 1 fairway and 8 GIR and I really could've done s lot better if I had chipped worth a damn. that's my game, most of the time. I pay noticeably better on open courses than on target golf or tight courses.

[isaacbm]

hebron1427, on 18 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Isaac, my game can v be schizophrenic but in general...big drives, average about 290 off the tee. nothing really accurate, though, and I don't hit the driver that much really because I didn't often need to. my irons are longer than the driver, and my 150club is aPW. I hit my 7 up to 200' but usually more like 185-190. I don't hit many GIR, which is probably due to bad driving than bad iron play. I have great short game for an amateur. average 30.5  putts per round. my wedge play is usually as good as most tour pros, because it's about the only thing I ever practice consistently. in the summer,I go in my back yard after the kids go to sleep.


planning and mental game is not great, but since I'm not great off the tee, it doesn't matter. most of my holes are scrambles anyway. last round I played,I shot 75 with 1 fairway and 8 GIR and I really could've done s lot better if I had chipped worth a damn. that's my game, most of the time. I pay noticeably better on open courses than on target golf or tight courses.

Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's wrong!  LOL!

I've always said there's only one way a scratch can shoot 85 and that's with the driver.  And the only way he can shoot 65 is with the putter.

As to how to improve your driving, some of that can be technical and some of it can be strategy or mental.  The first thing you have to do is be very very honest about where you're at.  Where are you missing it?  Are you nervous on the tee? Are you hitting driver when you shouldn't be? Are you playing clubs that are set up just for max distance or are you playing something that puts you in play.  Do you drive for ego or for position.

Once you figure some of that out, you'll know where to start to look to improve.

[ghalfaire]

After I voted (yes) I was surprised to see a majority think people are lying about their handicaps.  I guess I just don't see why one would lie about their handicap.  Must just be another symptom of testosterone Poisoning.  But since in this game we are our own referee, lying would seem to be an anathema to the game.

[Shiram]

I dunno if people on here lie or not. Probably some lie and some don't.

I do know that when everyone's honest about their index - it seems to work really well for handicapped matches. Every time I tee it up for an afternoon match all parties have a chance to win (if they play well). We usually play match play and it works out great.

Guys who are playing to a really low handicap don't have much room for error - so they still have to play well. Of course, relative to their handicaps guys who are 10+ still have to play well to their handicap - they can get a few bogeys but they can't get more than a couple of doubles or they'll be out of contention.

[TheCityGame]

Man. . .we have a bunch of threads around here about sandbaggers and how net tournaments are bullxxxx, and now 3 pages on how low cappers are riding vanity caps.

So, should everyone just play to a 6?

All I know is that round to round is a lot more random than a lot of people seem to think, and if you play long enough, you see everything. . .

Our club had a guy who is a 13 shoot a 73 this year. He's been with the club a long time. Everyone has played with him, played tournaments with him. He's a 13. Period. Goes out one day and has the round of his life. No one would call him a bagger.

I've seen 3's shoot 88's in these tournaments.

When I was improving as a kid, I was a 29 and shot 84 in a tournament. I'm not a bagger. I wound up that year as like a 16.

Played an 8 hdcp in my dad's member-guest one year that had 4 birdies in 9 holes against us.

My bro-in-law was handicap chairman at his club once. He has tons of stories about guys coming in, complaining about the same guys winning net events all the time, and he tells these guys, "they're the only ones playing to their handicaps." If the general membership at that course posted all their scores, and sank all their putts, 85% of them would go up 3-5 strokes. I think I've won about the last 8 fourballs I've played up there (casual matches), and AT BEST have shot my handicap 2-3 times.

[Thrillhouse]

ghalfaire, on 19 December 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

After I voted (yes) I was surprised to see a majority think people are lying about their handicaps.  I guess I just don't see why one would lie about their handicap.  Must just be another symptom of testosterone Poisoning.  But since in this game we are our own referee, lying would seem to be an anathema to the game.

It's because better players tend to play with better players, so if you're a 12 it's likely you never really see anyone shoot in the 70's and because you don't see it you don't believe that it happens as much as it does.

[SOONERMAGIC]

Hell... I was a +hcp when I shot two rounds in the 80s at my home course during the Austin Open.  Granted it was after a 22hr drive from FL with all my crap in a moving truck, but still it happens.  About as often as I shoot 69/70.