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Heavier weighted putters for fast greens?


115 replies to this topic

#1 cxissi

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:34 PM

Sorry if this has been covered before. I was putting great when our greens were running a little slower .
Our club just bought a couple of rollers and they have really quicken  up our greens . My lag putting went to crap and missed all kinds of short ones. |I picked up a putter with about 15 grams more weight
now I am back on track. I seem to putt much better with a heavier weighted putter on fast greens.
Anyone else have this work for them?
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#2 avgjoe

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 07:26 AM

yes... altho 15gm aint much, and i would not suggest frequent changes

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#3 hebron1427

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 12:16 PM

Yes. This is the common advice given. Lighter for slower, heavier for faster. Tiger used to have a few strips of lead tape that he'd tweak the weight on the putting green before each round.

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#4 havoc01

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 12:37 PM

so if i put 2 quarters or a fifty cent piece in the backof my #9 oddessy

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#5 drpino

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:00 PM

View Posthebron1427, on 02 September 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Yes. This is the common advice given. Lighter for slower, heavier for faster. Tiger used to have a few strips of lead tape that he'd tweak the weight on the putting green before each round.

TW adds lead tape for slower greens...contrary to your "common advice" above.

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#6 tywebb19

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 02:31 PM

common advice would be to add weight for slower greens so that you can make the same type of stroke you would make at equivalent distances on quicker greens. The lead tape adjustment has been employed by Tiger and others often at tournaments where greens are notoriously slower (ie British Open)

Edited by tywebb19, 02 September 2012 - 02:32 PM.


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#7 hebron1427

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:06 PM

View Postdrpino, on 02 September 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

View Posthebron1427, on 02 September 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Yes. This is the common advice given. Lighter for slower, heavier for faster. Tiger used to have a few strips of lead tape that he'd tweak the weight on the putting green before each round.

TW adds lead tape for slower greens...contrary to your "common advice" above.

yep. he does. the point wasn't that he does what's common, it's that even pros change weights often. sorry if that wasn't clear.

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#8 hebron1427

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

View Posttywebb19, on 02 September 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

common advice would be to add weight for slower greens so that you can make the same type of stroke you would make at equivalent distances on quicker greens. The lead tape adjustment has been employed by Tiger and others often at tournaments where greens are notoriously slower (ie British Open)

incorrect. common advice is to add weight for faster greens:

force = mass * acceleration
energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2

so, an increase in mass with the same force will lead to less acceleration and, therefore, less velocity. since energy is proportional to the square of velocity, the reduction in velocity will reduce the energy at a squared proportion. although an increase in mass alone increases energy with the same velocity, you won't get the same velocity with the same force if the mass is higher--and since acceleration is the derivative of velocity, the effect of lower accelaration is more than a linear impact on the velocity as well.

of course, the "common" advice doesn't factor physics into the analaysis--rather, it's that a heavier putter is easier to swing at slow speeds while a lighter putter can be accelerated more with a small stroke, and therefore it's "smoother swing" on fast greens and "more acceleration" on slow greens.

Edited by hebron1427, 02 September 2012 - 04:13 PM.


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#9 drpino

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:12 PM

As tywebb stated above, common advice (given the currently accepted principles of physics) is to use a heavier putter for slower greens

Those players that prefer a heavier putter for faster greens (usually citing the increased weight "smooths" out the stroke) are, in general, the exception and not the norm.
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#10 tywebb19

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:02 PM

View Posthebron1427, on 02 September 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

View Posttywebb19, on 02 September 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

common advice would be to add weight for slower greens so that you can make the same type of stroke you would make at equivalent distances on quicker greens. The lead tape adjustment has been employed by Tiger and others often at tournaments where greens are notoriously slower (ie British Open)

incorrect. common advice is to add weight for faster greens:

force = mass * acceleration
energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2

so, an increase in mass with the same force will lead to less acceleration and, therefore, less velocity. since energy is proportional to the square of velocity, the reduction in velocity will reduce the energy at a squared proportion. although an increase in mass alone increases energy with the same velocity, you won't get the same velocity with the same force if the mass is higher--and since acceleration is the derivative of velocity, the effect of lower accelaration is more than a linear impact on the velocity as well.

of course, the "common" advice doesn't factor physics into the analaysis--rather, it's that a heavier putter is easier to swing at slow speeds while a lighter putter can be accelerated more with a small stroke, and therefore it's "smoother swing" on fast greens and "more acceleration" on slow greens.


mathematically speaking sure..... but ask a skilled putter to make two strokes that feel equal on the same green with putters 10-20 grams diff in weight and see which ball rolls farther


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#11 rafal

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:56 PM

I added 8g to my spider on faster drier greens the stroke got smoother.  So there's something to be said for counter-intuitive nature of weight in putter.  Extra weight is great on fast greens as I found out --- it allows me to concentrate on feel since getting the ball to the cup is not a problem on fast greens.

8g feels like a lot in the spider since the weights are on extreme outside.
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#12 hebron1427

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 08:44 PM

View Posttywebb19, on 02 September 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

View Posthebron1427, on 02 September 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

View Posttywebb19, on 02 September 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

common advice would be to add weight for slower greens so that you can make the same type of stroke you would make at equivalent distances on quicker greens. The lead tape adjustment has been employed by Tiger and others often at tournaments where greens are notoriously slower (ie British Open)

incorrect. common advice is to add weight for faster greens:

force = mass * acceleration
energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2

so, an increase in mass with the same force will lead to less acceleration and, therefore, less velocity. since energy is proportional to the square of velocity, the reduction in velocity will reduce the energy at a squared proportion. although an increase in mass alone increases energy with the same velocity, you won't get the same velocity with the same force if the mass is higher--and since acceleration is the derivative of velocity, the effect of lower accelaration is more than a linear impact on the velocity as well.

of course, the "common" advice doesn't factor physics into the analaysis--rather, it's that a heavier putter is easier to swing at slow speeds while a lighter putter can be accelerated more with a small stroke, and therefore it's "smoother swing" on fast greens and "more acceleration" on slow greens.


mathematically speaking sure..... but ask a skilled putter to make two strokes that feel equal on the same green with putters 10-20 grams diff in weight and see which ball rolls farther

the point is to get the ball in the hole. whatever works--do that. i'm just speaking of my understanding of common advice and the reasons why.

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#13 rufus mangler

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:48 AM

+1
If you make more by adding weight, or playing with a heavier putter, do it.
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#14 knockdown9

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:46 AM

My experience or preference has always been to use a heavier putter on faster greens.  With faster greens I am making a smaller stroke, so I find it easier to keep my hands still with the heavier putter.  With slow greens I am taking a longer more forceful stroke which I find easier to keep my hands still and my stroke on path.
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#15 dlygrisse

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:49 AM

to me heavier is better for faster greens, take a look at 99% of the putters made prior to 1990, they all feel much lighter, all the Pings, Bullseyes, 8802's etc..most modern putters are much heavier, modern greens are much faster on average than they were 20 years ago.  Seems there may be a reason for this.

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#16 indyvai

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:59 PM

I've heard it both ways... and Hebron is right with the F=MA analogy... however... the M is the only variable in the equation and the A should remain constant... hence Tiger is spot on.  And besides one other major contibuter on here... that's the way I've always understood it...

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#17 PuttingDoctor

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:33 PM

Gents, tour survey says..... Lighter for slower, heavier for faster.

A lighter object can be accelerated faster.

Your mileage may vary and your "feel" may not be real.
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#18 hebron1427

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:46 PM

View Postindyvai, on 04 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

I've heard it both ways... and Hebron is right with the F=MA analogy... however... the M is the only variable in the equation and the A should remain constant... hence Tiger is spot on.  And besides one other major contibuter on here... that's the way I've always understood it...

you understand that mathematically that makes no sense?

F=M * A means that if the mass goes up, either the force or the acceleration (or both) change as well, by definition. there's no way for M to be the ONLY variable.

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#19 avgjoe

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:02 PM

what is easier to accelerate, lighter or heavier?

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#20 finalist

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:23 PM

A heavier putter shortens your backswing creating less time to accelerate through impact.

Heavier for faster.

Lighter for slower.

My typical experience is when I rarely game one of my putters that is 20grams heavier my lags are way short of standard. The extra weight creates the feeling that I need a shorter backswing which creates less power. BUT it only takes about 5-10 minutes to adapt.

Also know heavier heads may rotate more slowly, so this may hurt or help your face getting to where it needs to be at impact.

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#21 indyvai

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:10 PM

View Posthebron1427, on 05 September 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

View Postindyvai, on 04 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

I've heard it both ways... and Hebron is right with the F=MA analogy... however... the M is the only variable in the equation and the A should remain constant... hence Tiger is spot on.  And besides one other major contibuter on here... that's the way I've always understood it...

you understand that mathematically that makes no sense?

F=M * A means that if the mass goes up, either the force or the acceleration (or both) change as well, by definition. there's no way for M to be the ONLY variable.

For this topic, the M is the variable.  Any decent putter has tempo and doesn't vary acceleration except on lag putts.  The idea that a lighter putter accelerates faster than a heavier putter is stretching applicable physics a bit... that's full swing physics, not 6 foot putt physics...

Therefore if the mass goes up, the force goes up... more mass is better for slower greens... the math works...

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#22 indyvai

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:16 PM

View Postfinalist, on 05 September 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

A heavier putter shortens your backswing creating less time to accelerate through impact.

Heavier for faster.

Lighter for slower.

A heavier putter may shorten your back swing, but that's your brain telling you that the heavier putter is going to hit the putt further than a lighter putter.

If you take an equal stroke with putters of varying weight... the stroke by the heavier putter goes farther.  The lighter putter allows more back wing on faster greens also allowing a smaller margin of error.

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#23 Mschumacher

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:32 PM

I have a pretty short putter and therefore kinda on the light side.  I find I putt well on faster greens and horribly on slow ones.  Especially on shorter putts in the 3-4ft range.

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#24 hebron1427

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:41 PM

View Postindyvai, on 07 September 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

View Posthebron1427, on 05 September 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

View Postindyvai, on 04 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

I've heard it both ways... and Hebron is right with the F=MA analogy... however... the M is the only variable in the equation and the A should remain constant... hence Tiger is spot on.  And besides one other major contibuter on here... that's the way I've always understood it...

you understand that mathematically that makes no sense?

F=M * A means that if the mass goes up, either the force or the acceleration (or both) change as well, by definition. there's no way for M to be the ONLY variable.

For this topic, the M is the variable.  Any decent putter has tempo and doesn't vary acceleration except on lag putts.  The idea that a lighter putter accelerates faster than a heavier putter is stretching applicable physics a bit... that's full swing physics, not 6 foot putt physics...

Therefore if the mass goes up, the force goes up... more mass is better for slower greens... the math works...

ok....here's what you're saying:

if the mass goes up, a player instinctively knows to use more force and how much more force to use to get the acceleration exactly the same with the same mass, and because the acceleration is the same (and velocity is a function of acceleration) then the velocity is the same, and higher mass with the same velocity equals higher energy.

what i'm saying is:

a player DOESN'T know what force to input to get the putter to go the same speed. he just uses the same stroke, which means the same force, and therefore, less acceleration with more mass. lower acceleration leads to lower velocity which leads to reduction in energy proportional to the square of the difference.

here's the thing:

even if what you're saying is CORRECT, there is only a linear difference based on the increased mass. if what i'm saying is correct, there is a quadratic proportionality between the difference. therefore, it's a much more pronounced difference--and, therefore, probably more noticeable--if what i'm saying is correct.

moreover, because it has a greater impact, mathematically, what i'm saying has a greater chance of actually helping a player succeed because the impact will be more pronounced.

like i said before, do whatever works. the scorecard doesn't care how you get there. but if you want to argue math, you're wrong on this one. thanks for the dialogue though, matt.


also, as a side note, if the tempo is the same, the stroke length will be different with higher mass. i can explain the physics on that if you want too.

Edited by hebron1427, 07 September 2012 - 09:43 PM.


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#25 weaver93

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:26 PM

you need to stop it!.........I am almost out of Patron!


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#26 finalist

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:47 PM

View Postindyvai, on 07 September 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

View Postfinalist, on 05 September 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

A heavier putter shortens your backswing creating less time to accelerate through impact.

Heavier for faster.

Lighter for slower.

A heavier putter may shorten your back swing, but that's your brain telling you that the heavier putter is going to hit the putt further than a lighter putter.

If you take an equal stroke with putters of varying weight... the stroke by the heavier putter goes farther.  The lighter putter allows more back wing on faster greens also allowing a smaller margin of error.

Exactly. That's why I'm right! Lol!!!

Does the physics factor in the slower rotation of a heavier head through pact? A closed face may impart more distance as a lighter heads tends to rotate faster.
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#27 hebron1427

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:47 PM

View Postweaver93, on 07 September 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

you need to stop it!.........I am almost out of Patron!

lol. pretty soon ,it wont matter what we say. :yahoo:

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#28 indyvai

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

View Posthebron1427, on 07 September 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

like i said before, do whatever works. the scorecard doesn't care how you get there. but if you want to argue math, you're wrong on this one. thanks for the dialogue though, matt.

also, as a side note, if the tempo is the same, the stroke length will be different with higher mass. i can explain the physics on that if you want too.

Alright... I think alot of what I am trying to explain is getting twisted when other factors enter the equation.  The reason I simplify my physics analysis of putting is the human factor.  Stroke length doesn't vary with a higher mass... stroke length is determined by the player.  Tempo is relative to the player also, the player controls his or her tempo, not the weight of the club.  Players can be influenced by weight, but that can't be measured or assumed.  If I take a 350g head putter and compare it directly to a 330g head putter, I can feel the difference and the same stroke with the heavier head seems to apply more force to the ball with the heavier head.  Also... if less stroke = more force, your distance control is greater with a lighter putter because of the lesser magnitude of error in the actual backstroke vs what is ideal.  Also, lighter taps necessary on fast greens are harder with a heavier head, so why would heavier be better for fast greens?

I don't teach putting, however I dabble in the theoretical physics quite a bit.  And considering the multitude of conflicting information that is out there, I try to firm up my theories with applicable date... wherever it applies.  As stated previously I take any variables that can be considered part of the human factor out... so follow me here... and show me the way.

Here's my hypothetical case study... tell me where I am wrong:

2 identical strokes are applied to putts using a standard head and a heavier head.  Which putt goes farther?
I assume it's the heavier head's stroke.

So therefore if the ball goes farther with the same stroke, you would want that on slower greens to counteract the speed.  And on the flip side the lighter putter would be beneficial on fast greens because you are able to execute very light strokes that are difficult with the heavier putter...

Show me the money!

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#29 avgjoe

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:27 PM

except you can't take out the human factor, since it is generally humans doing the putting... that's why putting is more an art than a science.  some/many of us have done the experimenting, and found what works for us, i.e., heavier for faster and lighter for slower.  if you have not done so you might try it, maybe all that theory goes out the window... or not

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#30 indyvai

indyvai

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:33 PM

View Postavgjoe, on 08 September 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

except you can't take out the human factor, since it is generally humans doing the putting... that's why putting is more an art than a science.  some/many of us have done the experimenting, and found what works for us, i.e., heavier for faster and lighter for slower.  if you have not done so you might try it, maybe all that theory goes out the window... or not

It's funny you say that you can't take out the human factor... because I am actually accounting for the human factor by taking out variables that apply to common laws of physics for this theoretical discussion that I feel are not applicable due to the human factor.  So technically looking at putting from a purely scientific and mathamatical view doesn't account for the human factor... which is why I like to simplify it for a theoretical discussion.  Nothing is ever one size fits all, but if you can't strip it down to compare something as simple as the effects of an extra 10g-20g of head weight on a putter head than nobody can benefit or learn anything from the discussion except what individuals do.

Don't get me wrong, whatever works for each individual is great for that individual and there are alot of other variables regarding to personal preferance that goes along with an individuals putter choices.  And if I elaborated on the experimentation I have done just this offseason with variable head weights, internal shaft and butt weighting you'd be quite surprised.


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