115 replies to this topic

[Tanner25]

JamesBurg, on 03 December 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Master Key Swing

You must do all of the swinging with your lead shoulder.  Your lead arm and lead hand must control the extension and the rotation of the clubface back to the correct angle at impact.  Centrifugal force and momentum will do the release.  Of course it all has to be timed well, as any swing must be timed well.  Your trailing side will help but it must not be allowed to have any control.

Keeping your eyes focused on where you want the leading edge of the club to come in at impact is also very important.  Do not move your eyes until well after impact.

As I have said before, if it helps, you can think of this swing as a backhanding action controlled by your lead shoulder.

Keep it easy and concentrate on the timing and contact.

I tried going back conventional and went back to hitting weak slices. Then practiced with the Master Key again and it truly works. The hard part is getting it to produce consistent results. James and others, outside of the lead shoulder controlling the swing, what are the next important pieces? I did try a more narrow stance and a draw biased stance. But, that is not a help. Any other tips within this system?

Cheers

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 04 January 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[JamesBurg]

Tanner25, on 04 January 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

JamesBurg, on 03 December 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Master Key Swing

You must do all of the swinging with your lead shoulder.  Your lead arm and lead hand must control the extension and the rotation of the clubface back to the correct angle at impact.  Centrifugal force and momentum will do the release.  Of course it all has to be timed well, as any swing must be timed well.  Your trailing side will help but it must not be allowed to have any control.

Keeping your eyes focused on where you want the leading edge of the club to come in at impact is also very important.  Do not move your eyes until well after impact.

As I have said before, if it helps, you can think of this swing as a backhanding action controlled by your lead shoulder.

Keep it easy and concentrate on the timing and contact.

I tried going back conventional and went back to hitting weak slices. Then practiced with the Master Key again and it truly works. The hard part is getting it to produce consistent results. James and others, outside of the lead shoulder controlling the swing, what are the next important pieces? I did try a more narrow stance and a draw biased stance. But, that is not a help. Any other tips within this system?

Cheers

Tanner

Is there any consistency to your misses, like pull, hook, push, slice, fat, thin?

[Tanner25]

JamesBurg, on 05 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Tanner25, on 04 January 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

JamesBurg, on 03 December 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Master Key Swing

You must do all of the swinging with your lead shoulder.  Your lead arm and lead hand must control the extension and the rotation of the clubface back to the correct angle at impact.  Centrifugal force and momentum will do the release.  Of course it all has to be timed well, as any swing must be timed well.  Your trailing side will help but it must not be allowed to have any control.

Keeping your eyes focused on where you want the leading edge of the club to come in at impact is also very important.  Do not move your eyes until well after impact.

As I have said before, if it helps, you can think of this swing as a backhanding action controlled by your lead shoulder.

Keep it easy and concentrate on the timing and contact.

I tried going back conventional and went back to hitting weak slices. Then practiced with the Master Key again and it truly works. The hard part is getting it to produce consistent results. James and others, outside of the lead shoulder controlling the swing, what are the next important pieces? I did try a more narrow stance and a draw biased stance. But, that is not a help. Any other tips within this system?

Cheers

Tanner

Is there any consistency to your misses, like pull, hook, push, slice, fat, thin?

Thx, James.

With the driver it is a weak slice and irons off the ground, especially longer clubs (3,4) a hook. One other question, on the irons - have you used the lead shoulder to try to make ball first contact/divot ahead of ball or you just go back and forth?

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 06 January 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[JamesBurg]

Tanner,

Slice is outside-in clubhead path.  Are you using a closed stance with driver?  Hook is too much inside-out.  If there is also any push or pull to these shots, that would also involve a clubface angle problem.

With ball on turf, I always hit ball first and then turf.  Ball position, and setup with some forward shaft lean is part of it, but I think about my clubhead path as descending through the ball before swinging.

If you are asking if I go back and forth with two different swing methods, no, I use the Master Key swing for everything, even putting.

[Tanner25]

JamesBurg, on 06 January 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Tanner,

Slice is outside-in clubhead path.  Are you using a closed stance with driver?  Hook is too much inside-out.  If there is also any push or pull to these shots, that would also involve a clubface angle problem.

With ball on turf, I always hit ball first and then turf.  Ball position, and setup with some forward shaft lean is part of it, but I think about my clubhead path as descending through the ball before swinging.

If you are asking if I go back and forth with two different swing methods, no, I use the Master Key swing for everything, even putting.

Thanks, James. I generally have a slightly open stance, front flared foot for a righty. I guess without being taped it is hard to tell. But, I think the problem is having an inability to isolate the shoulder going back. For some reason, going through is easy. It is probably hard to break the old habits of a handsy/arm swing, where the hands start the swing.

I noticed a lot of your feedback involves imagery (I think about my clubhead path as descending through the ball before swinging.) which is great. I don't think we want to clutter the mind during the swing.

I've practiced with the MK. But, truly have only played 5 times. Maybe, in year two - I will see better and more consistent results.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 09 January 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Tanner25]

JamesBurg, on 06 January 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Tanner,

Slice is outside-in clubhead path.  Are you using a closed stance with driver?  Hook is too much inside-out.  If there is also any push or pull to these shots, that would also involve a clubface angle problem.

With ball on turf, I always hit ball first and then turf.  Ball position, and setup with some forward shaft lean is part of it, but I think about my clubhead path as descending through the ball before swinging.

If you are asking if I go back and forth with two different swing methods, no, I use the Master Key swing for everything, even putting.

James or any other master key folks, Since I had a problem of isolating the left shoulder going back, today, I tried to think of the upper left quadrant (shoulder blade and shoulder) going
back and left shoulder going through - I hit some great shots in practice. I believe a previous poster used the left shdr blade both ways. This is a slight variation of both swings. Anyone else try this? (Also, this would reduce the strain on the left shoulder by half )

Tanner

[heavybladed]

Good point about envisioning the entire shoulder, front and back. I can see why that would help.

If I feel like I'm not making a good shoulder turn, sometimes I'll just practice moving both shoulders at the same time. Lead one down to the front, and trailing one up to the back. I feel like that is a good exercise/drill to help emphasize turning the upper body around the spine. Actually swinging this way can be a little difficult I've found. The deeper your shoulder turn is the more important (and difficult) it is to keep your hip angle intact and harness and control that coiling power.

Edit; one point to remember. Master Key, for me anyway, is about good or even great impact position, not about a huge shoulder turn. That is a different set of mechanics I believe.

Edited by heavybladed, 09 January 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Moleman]

I've struggled for a long time with turning my lower body properly through the swing, I've always been very armsy which when my timing is off results in very inconsistent golf!!

While looking for tips I noticed in another forum people talking about the Master Key which has in turn led me here.

Only hit 100 or so balls using this method so far, thinking only about leadin with my left shoulder and to my amazement it is producing some remarkable shots, ball is much higher and straighter with no loss of distance and in most cases slightly further.

Slowing everything down it is amazing that while only thinking about starting the downswing with my shoulder my hips automatically turn as my hands and arms drop!  Quite exciting but early days, will see how it progresses over the next few days.

One I have noticed is a slight ache in my lower left side lumber region, guess I'm not used to feeling any tension here!  Anyone else have this feeling?

[heavybladed]

Yup. Especially at first, not so much anymore. As odd as this may sound, at first those muscles in my lower left side would tired to the point of failure. Which confused and frustrated me until I realized what happened. Now I include some regular stretching in my day and it's no longer an issue.

[Moleman]

Hit another basket of balls today and first half of the basket I was hitting some lovely shots, crisp connection, high and straight.

Halfway through however I 'lost' it, I think this was loss if concentration and a revert back to my old swing.  I regrouped and recommitted to my action of a dynamic decisive left shoulder led action again and my last 10 balls were as good as the first few.

My one observation/worry about the swing is that at the finish I feel quite a bit of weight on my back foot for some of the shots.  Is this just down to my lack of practise with the swing or is gettin the weight properly through to the left side a problem for some?

Been a bit lost recently with my swing so definitely enough encouragement to invest a bit more time with this method.

[heavybladed]

Really nice to hear about your improvement Moleman. I can only speak for myself, but when I leave my weight on my back foot or start hitting any other poor shots usually it's because I'm rushing my backswing or I'm tight in my arms. Refocusing on my shoulder is what sort of brings be back too. I like to see it come into my peripheral right under the ball on the way back. I feel like from there, not much can go wrong.

[Moleman]

I ordered the book today, £3.98 was a pretty big commitment but I went for it anyway!!

First day I hit much more good shots than bad.  Today, as I started to think more consciously about what I was doing, struggled to think only of the shoulder I hit more bad shots than good!  However I hit enough good shots and more importantly the good shots I hit felt and looked sooo sweet that I know there is something here worth perservering with...

Couple of questions while I wait for the book,

1,  Do you have a picture in your head of the shoulder plane and then move the left shoulder back along the plane then forward through the plane line to the finish? (This is what I was doing today)

2, Do you feel like you are starting the downswing by moving the left shoulder vertically or is this an incorrect thought?

3,  How hard do you swing on the DS, a smooth acceleration through the ball or a real hard swipe?

Thanks in advance.

[Gotblades]

I'm reading "Golf Monster" by Alice Cooper and if I'm not mistaken this is the type of move he makes in his golf swing.  Left side (leading side for him) dominant.  

Pretty interesting.

[heavybladed]

I'll go ahead and talk about what I'm doing, but again, these are only my results.

1, I do sort of get a mental picture of the shoulder plane however I only really see it while bringing the club back since I'm keeping my head still.

2, I don't have access to video so I'm not 100% sure, judging from what I can see in a mirror I think bringing the shoulder through on the same plane it came back on is how it looks and feels to me.

3, This seems tricky to answer because everyones tempo is going to be a little different. When my shoulder starts to engage the downswing I am simultaneously feeling my left foot plant (but not straighten) into the ground. The only reason my upper body and lower don't both engage is if I am just plain too fast, and lose my posture and balance. The moment my left side is "planted" I really can swing as hard as I want within the confines of keeping my balance.

There are a few posts about some people experiencing straight pulls and pull-hooks using this method
(I have at times also). Having kept at it for the better part of a year now my experiences are that pulls are from standing up out of my posture and the club momentum continuing on out and around, and over the plane. If I commit to my posture it is so effortless that there isn't really any need to try to kill the ball, which has always been my fatal flaw.

[Moleman]

Thanks for the replies heavy!

Read the ebook now a few times and have to say that've even leaving the master key section to one side there is a lot of great stuff in this book, very impressed so far.

Played my first 9-holes of golf today since reading the book and results were encouraging, lot of poor shots where I struggled to properly commit to the simple shoulder led feel however there were enough shots when I hit the ball sweeter and better than ever before to let me know I need to persevere with the swing. Interesting that my best shots of the day were with hybrids and 5-6 irons and my weakest probably wedges which is the opposite of my normal experience.

Biggest obstacle so far is learning to switch off the rests of my multitude of swing thoughts and fully commit to the 'Master Key'.

Anyone else still using the swing and how are progressing with it?

Anyone know what this guys background is, is he a pro?

Edited by Moleman, 08 May 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[JamesBurg]

I exchanged a few emails with Noel Thomas some years ago.  He has no letters after his name, if that's what you mean by pro.  He just seems to be a player who figured out the golf swing and wrote it all in a small book.

As I have said before, my friends and I have been playing to scratch using his instruction for 8 years, so I would say it was better for us than all of the instruction by pros that we tried before that.

[Moleman]

When I was able to simply push my lead shoulder back and then pull it through on the downswing I was hitting truely the sweetest shots I've ever hit, my problem in these early stages is being able to keep my concentration and simply trust this simple key.  

I also really liked his section on timing and tempo, giving each part of the swing it's required time without rushing was a great tip, my poor shots today were down to me getting too quick and ahead of myself on the ds.

Temptation is still to swing too hard..

[Tanner25]

Moleman, on 05 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I've struggled for a long time with turning my lower body properly through the swing, I've always been very armsy which when my timing is off results in very inconsistent golf!!

While looking for tips I noticed in another forum people talking about the Master Key which has in turn led me here.

Only hit 100 or so balls using this method so far, thinking only about leadin with my left shoulder and to my amazement it is producing some remarkable shots, ball is much higher and straighter with no loss of distance and in most cases slightly further.

Slowing everything down it is amazing that while only thinking about starting the downswing with my shoulder my hips automatically turn as my hands and arms drop!  Quite exciting but early days, will see how it progresses over the next few days.

One I have noticed is a slight ache in my lower left side lumber region, guess I'm not used to feeling any tension here!  Anyone else have this feeling?

I tried this method for about 4 months. It works. But, I too experienced pain ( left shdr). Now, that I stopped. My pain has gone away. To me, you canfunction a little bit better with this swing as a higher handicap player. But, it's not worth the pain or further damage. Everyone's different, many have done this with no pain issues. One other side note, although the shots were awesome, since, the hands are not involved, there's no good feeling involved to hitting a good shot.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 09 May 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[Moleman]

I've been guilty in the past of trying a new swing or swing thought, getting some early success and then after a bad round giving up and returning to the never ending search for the 'perfect' swing again.

Going to stick this one out, I've hit some of my sweetest ever shots using the swing and when I hit a few bad ones I know the reasons why, (either rushing the downswing or letting my upper body get ahead of the ball before impact).  The trigger is also simple enough that if I can get it grooved then it will be very repeatable.

As far as the pain is concerned I think I was feeling an ache in my lower left lumber simply because it had never been streched in that way before.  I'm now warming up that area properly before hand and have had no more pain.

I'm 36 and in good physical shape, a little old now for football so need another sport to be competitive in, I'm currently a 17 handicapper but I know I have the tools to get down to single figures, hopefully this is the swing to get me there.

Edited by Moleman, 09 May 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Tanner25]

Moleman, on 09 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

I've been guilty in the past of trying a new swing or swing thought, getting some early success and then after a bad round giving up and returning to the never ending search for the 'perfect' swing again.

Going to stick this one out, I've hit some of my sweetest ever shots using the swing and when I hit a few bad ones I know the reasons why, (either rushing the downswing or letting my upper body get ahead of the ball before impact).  The trigger is also simple enough that if I can get it grooved then it will be very repeatable.

As far as the pain is concerned I think I was feeling an ache in my lower left lumber simply because it had never been streched in that way before.  I'm now warming up that area properly before hand and have had no more pain.

I'm 36 and in good physical shape, a little old now for football so need another sport to be competitive in, I'm currently a 17 handicapper but I know I have the tools to get down to single figures, hopefully this is the swing to get me there.

No doubt, it works. Trusting it is a big thing. I also noticed the first hole & swing is the hardest. Perhaps, hitting the range or taking many practice swings before the first swing will help. I've noticed even with a new set of irons, it cd take 6 months to get used to it. I think the same thing will be true for this swing. It does offer quick results. But, it will get better over time, too.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 10 May 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Moleman]

Ok, played 9 holes after work today using the master key and this is how I got on.

First few holes, some lovely crisp strikes and played pretty much to my h/c.

Doubled the 15th with a poor 3 putt and then the 16th was the first hole where I started to think about my swing mechanics rather than just trust the key, terrible hole!

Regrouped on the 17th tee (long par3) and cleared my mind of all but these simple thoughts,

Left shoulder back and through..
Swing smooth...

Played the 17th and 18th better than ever before!

Really excited about the potential of this method for me, my only experience of it so far however is playing casually by myself, it will be interesting to see how my discipline holds up when I'm playing next with friends or in a comp!

Edited by Moleman, 10 May 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Tanner25]

Moleman, on 10 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Ok, played 9 holes after work today using the master key and this is how I got on.

First few holes, some lovely crisp strikes and played pretty much to my h/c.

Doubled the 15th with a poor 3 putt and then the 16th was the first hole where I started to think about my swing mechanics rather than just trust the key, terrible hole!

Regrouped on the 17th tee (long par3) and cleared my mind of all but these simple thoughts,

Left shoulder back and through..
Swing smooth...

Played the 17th and 18th better than ever before!

Really excited about the potential of this method for me, my only experience of it so far however is playing casually by myself, it will be interesting to see how my discipline holds up when I'm playing next with friends or in a comp!

That thought worked best for me, left shoulder back and through and smooth. You'll be fine with your friends. In fact, I had my best
9 holes with it with a friend. But, the other 9 was bad. Consistency is an issue. It is so tempting to use this method. But, I worried
about executing this from round to round and 9 to 9.

Tanner

[heavybladed]

Moleman, on 10 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Regrouped on the 17th tee (long par3) and cleared my mind of all but these simple thoughts,

Left shoulder back and through..
Swing smooth...

Played the 17th and 18th better than ever before!

It sounds easy, but making the adjustment to just one swing thought is actually not that easy for a lot of us. But it's been worth making the switch for me. Keeping it simple helps especially when I go for periods of time without being able to practice, like 6 month winters and what-not.

[JamesBurg]

heavybladed, on 10 May 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Moleman, on 10 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Regrouped on the 17th tee (long par3) and cleared my mind of all but these simple thoughts,

Left shoulder back and through..
Swing smooth...

Played the 17th and 18th better than ever before!

It sounds easy, but making the adjustment to just one swing thought is actually not that easy for a lot of us. But it's been worth making the switch for me. Keeping it simple helps especially when I go for periods of time without being able to practice, like 6 month winters and what-not.

Yes, it is so simple and easy for me that sometimes I do not hit any range balls before a round.  I just practice my short game and take a few practice swings at the first tee.

[Tanner25]

JamesBurg, on 10 May 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

heavybladed, on 10 May 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Moleman, on 10 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Regrouped on the 17th tee (long par3) and cleared my mind of all but these simple thoughts,

Left shoulder back and through..
Swing smooth...

Played the 17th and 18th better than ever before!

It sounds easy, but making the adjustment to just one swing thought is actually not that easy for a lot of us. But it's been worth making the switch for me. Keeping it simple helps especially when I go for periods of time without being able to practice, like 6 month winters and what-not.

Yes, it is so simple and easy for me that sometimes I do not hit any range balls before a round.  I just practice my short game and take a few practice swings at the first tee.

James,

Have you ran into anyone else that experienced shoulder pain with this method? Were they able to adjust to it in any way? Was there a set up change or maybe get the tension out of the shoulder prior to swinging etc? I had a frozen shoulder prior to using this swing thought, I am sure that has not helped.

Tanner

[JamesBurg]

Tanner25, on 11 May 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

JamesBurg, on 10 May 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

heavybladed, on 10 May 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Moleman, on 10 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Regrouped on the 17th tee (long par3) and cleared my mind of all but these simple thoughts,

Left shoulder back and through..
Swing smooth...

Played the 17th and 18th better than ever before!

It sounds easy, but making the adjustment to just one swing thought is actually not that easy for a lot of us. But it's been worth making the switch for me. Keeping it simple helps especially when I go for periods of time without being able to practice, like 6 month winters and what-not.

Yes, it is so simple and easy for me that sometimes I do not hit any range balls before a round.  I just practice my short game and take a few practice swings at the first tee.

James,

Have you ran into anyone else that experienced shoulder pain with this method? Were they able to adjust to it in any way? Was there a set up change or maybe get the tension out of the shoulder prior to swinging etc? I had a frozen shoulder prior to using this swing thought, I am sure that has not helped.

Tanner

No, I don't know of anyone else who has had that problem.