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Golf's Master Key


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#1 Tanner25

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:18 PM

Thanks, to JamesBurg, I tried Golfer's Master Key. Well, after a first tee (swing flubb , didn't have confidence), I struck the ball really well. I'd say, I had the two longest drives of my life. During the round, I was expecting to hit greens. It was an effortless swing. For those, who are not familar with the swing. You are basically using the lead shoulder to swing. Push it back and pull it through. I more or less just think of moving the left shouder both ways, I pull through naturally. It was only one round. But, I am very excited about the possibilities. I don't think it will take you from a 22 to a 2. But, I can see a decent & positive change with this swing. Anyone else have success with it?

Cheers, Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 18 August 2012 - 06:27 PM.


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#2 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:21 PM

Thread merge

#3 juliette91

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:50 PM

View PostTanner25, on 18 August 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Thanks, to JamesBurg, I tried Golfer's Master Key. Well, after a first tee (swing flubb , didn't have confidence), I struck the ball really well. I'd say, I had the two longest drives of my life. During the round, I was expecting to hit greens. It was an effortless swing. For those, who are not familar with the swing. You are basically using the lead shoulder to swing. Push it back and pull it through. I more or less just think of moving the left shouder both ways, I pull through naturally. It was only one round. But, I am very excited about the possibilities. I don't think it will take you from a 22 to a 2. But, I can see a decent & positive change with this swing. Anyone else have success with it?

Cheers, Tanner

I bought this pamphlet too, James Burg recommendation on another discussion thread I started on the transition to downswing.  It flies in the face of what I've not only read but also practiced to say that the shoulder lead will allow the lower body to move fast enough to avoid the pull or pull hook.  Or does it?  I've used
the method with great success and then not so good.  Won't give up on it because it offers a possible easier to implement solution.

Still, does it make sense?

#4 JamesBurg

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:40 PM

Read this:  http://suite101.com/...er-tips-a133539

This article may give you a better insight into downswing mechanics.

At least someone else is teaching it, if only as an alternative, and only for the downswing.

Thanks to Oldvett for finding the article.

Edited by JamesBurg, 20 August 2012 - 05:20 PM.


#5 Tanner25

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:52 PM

View Postjuliette91, on 20 August 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 18 August 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Thanks, to JamesBurg, I tried Golfer's Master Key. Well, after a first tee (swing flubb , didn't have confidence), I struck the ball really well. I'd say, I had the two longest drives of my life. During the round, I was expecting to hit greens. It was an effortless swing. For those, who are not familar with the swing. You are basically using the lead shoulder to swing. Push it back and pull it through. I more or less just think of moving the left shouder both ways, I pull through naturally. It was only one round. But, I am very excited about the possibilities. I don't think it will take you from a 22 to a 2. But, I can see a decent & positive change with this swing. Anyone else have success with it?

Cheers, Tanner

I bought this pamphlet too, James Burg recommendation on another discussion thread I started on the transition to downswing.  It flies in the face of what I've not only read but also practiced to say that the shoulder lead will allow the lower body to move fast enough to avoid the pull or pull hook.  Or does it?  I've used the method with great success and then not so good.  Won't give up on it because it offers a possible easier to implement solution.

Still, does it make sense?

When you think of it, even the pros have a few shanks out there. Did you see Brad Faxon on those chips and John Houston gagging on wedge shots this past weekend. So, there is no such thing as a perfect swing method. All I can say is I have hit two of the longest drives I have ever seen and several irons shots square to the green. One one shot, I was picking the upper left quandrant of the green and hit it. I never pick spots on the green like that. I hit and usually pray I land on the dance floor.

I've also hit a few thin shots that were horrible. But, overall it was a clear improvement and looking to improve on this!

The jury is still out for the chipping. I can see it as a good method for a flop shot. I am not sure if it is good for a low running chip.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 20 August 2012 - 06:55 PM.


#6 juliette91

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:43 AM

View PostTanner25, on 20 August 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

View Postjuliette91, on 20 August 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 18 August 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Thanks, to JamesBurg, I tried Golfer's Master Key. Well, after a first tee (swing flubb , didn't have confidence), I struck the ball really well. I'd say, I had the two longest drives of my life. During the round, I was expecting to hit greens. It was an effortless swing. For those, who are not familar with the swing. You are basically using the lead shoulder to swing. Push it back and pull it through. I more or less just think of moving the left shouder both ways, I pull through naturally. It was only one round. But, I am very excited about the possibilities. I don't think it will take you from a 22 to a 2. But, I can see a decent & positive change with this swing. Anyone else have success with it?

Cheers, Tanner

I bought this pamphlet too, James Burg recommendation on another discussion thread I started on the transition to downswing.  It flies in the face of what I've not only read but also practiced to say that the shoulder lead will allow the lower body to move fast enough to avoid the pull or pull hook.  Or does it?  I've used the method with great success and then not so good.  Won't give up on it because it offers a possible easier to implement solution.

Still, does it make sense?

When you think of it, even the pros have a few shanks out there. Did you see Brad Faxon on those chips and John Houston gagging on wedge shots this past weekend. So, there is no such thing as a perfect swing method. All I can say is I have hit two of the longest drives I have ever seen and several irons shots square to the green. One one shot, I was picking the upper left quandrant of the green and hit it. I never pick spots on the green like that. I hit and usually pray I land on the dance floor.

I've also hit a few thin shots that were horrible. But, overall it was a clear improvement and looking to improve on this!

The jury is still out for the chipping. I can see it as a good method for a flop shot. I am not sure if it is good for a low running chip.

Tanner

It may be the swing idea for pitches, which are mini full swings, but I guess I didn't read it thoroughly enough to note the author uses this same move for chip shots.  Are you sure about that?

#7 juliette91

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:31 AM

View PostJamesBurg, on 20 August 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Read this:  http://suite101.com/...er-tips-a133539

This article may give you a better insight into downswing mechanics.

At least someone else is teaching it, if only as an alternative, and only for the downswing.

Thanks to Oldvett for finding the article.

Thanks for posting that.  It's a very good explanation and answers my questions.  I'm just struggling with feeling that shoulder during takeaway and especially in transition.  Getting my brain to isolate that leading shoulder and allow it to lead is my biggest challenge right now.  Any thoughts on that?

Tks.

#8 JamesBurg

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:45 PM

View Postjuliette91, on 21 August 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

View PostJamesBurg, on 20 August 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Read this:  http://suite101.com/...er-tips-a133539

This article may give you a better insight into downswing mechanics.

At least someone else is teaching it, if only as an alternative, and only for the downswing.

Thanks to Oldvett for finding the article.

Thanks for posting that.  It's a very good explanation and answers my questions.  I'm just struggling with feeling that shoulder during takeaway and especially in transition.  Getting my brain to isolate that leading shoulder and allow it to lead is my biggest challenge right now.  Any thoughts on that?

Tks.

Here is a possibility.

In the original "The Golf Swing And Its Master Key Explained", there was an alternate swing thought that said:

"If it helps you, you can think of this swing as a backhanding action controlled by your lead shoulder.  If that does not help you, then do not use it."

I do not know why that is not in the current revised edition, but I think it is possible that it might help someone.

Edited by JamesBurg, 21 August 2012 - 04:48 PM.


#9 juliette91

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:54 PM

View PostJamesBurg, on 21 August 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

View Postjuliette91, on 21 August 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

View PostJamesBurg, on 20 August 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Read this:  http://suite101.com/...er-tips-a133539

This article may give you a better insight into downswing mechanics.

At least someone else is teaching it, if only as an alternative, and only for the downswing.

Thanks to Oldvett for finding the article.

Thanks for posting that.  It's a very good explanation and answers my questions.  I'm just struggling with feeling that shoulder during takeaway and especially in transition.  Getting my brain to isolate that leading shoulder and allow it to lead is my biggest challenge right now.  Any thoughts on that?

Tks.

Here is a possibility.

In the original "The Golf Swing And Its Master Key Explained", there was an alternate swing thought that said:

"If it helps you, you can think of this swing as a backhanding action controlled by your lead shoulder.  If that does not help you, then do not use it."

I do not know why that is not in the current revised edition, but I think it is possible that it might help someone.

It helps, thanks!

#10 Tanner25

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 08:13 AM

I'm bummed, I was looking forward to adding practice time to this new swing and realized, it is screwing up my shoulder. I was worried abt the repetitive motion. I guess others have no problem with this. But, I've had a frozen shoulder on my lead shoulder and I guess I am a little more sensative.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 26 August 2012 - 05:30 PM.


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#11 JamesBurg

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:26 PM

Very sorry about that.  I can understand why you were concerned about trying it.  I had never thought about it requiring a completely healthy lead shoulder joint, but yes, I think it would.

I hope that shoulder heals, and I wish you all the best.

James

#12 Tanner25

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:30 PM

View PostJamesBurg, on 26 August 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Very sorry about that.  I can understand why you were concerned about trying it.  I had never thought about it requiring a completely healthy lead shoulder joint, but yes, I think it would.

I hope that shoulder heals, and I wish you all the best.

James

Thanks, for the support James. I was thinking hopefully, I can build up some strength through some " wall climbs", which helped in my rehab in the past.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 26 August 2012 - 05:31 PM.


#13 Tanner25

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:45 PM

James,

Good news. Your last suggestion of doing the master key with a smooth and easy swing, took pressure off my lead shoulder. Now, it doesn't hurt as much when doing it. Previously, I tried to whip it through hard. Also, the master key works better in a smooth swing. You helped me out twice. I always thought when someone found a secret or swing key - they wouldn't share it. You did. Thanks. On the same subject, when did Noel come out with this swing?

Having seen many crappy swings on a public course, I think many high cappers would benefit by this swing. Today, I compared my old swing with the new one. With two flushed swings, side by side, I hit it 20 yards further and straight with the master key compared to my old arms and hands swing.

Cheers,

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 06 September 2012 - 07:51 PM.


#14 JamesBurg

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:40 PM

When I first bought the instruction in April, 2005, it was a printed book only and the copyright was 2004, so I am guessing that it was first sold in 2004.  I have exchanged some emails with the author, but I have not thought to ask that.

I'm glad I could help you.  I enjoy helping other players.

I do not enjoy playing behind slow players who obviously have no clue as to how to swing a golf club.  It's probably not their fault in many cases, because they have not found simple swing instruction that works.  That's my rant for today.

#15 Tanner25

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostJamesBurg, on 06 September 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

When I first bought the instruction in April, 2005, it was a printed book only and the copyright was 2004, so I am guessing that it was first sold in 2004.  I have exchanged some emails with the author, but I have not thought to ask that.

I'm glad I could help you.  I enjoy helping other players.

I do not enjoy playing behind slow players who obviously have no clue as to how to swing a golf club.  It's probably not their fault in many cases, because they have not found simple swing instruction that works.  That's my rant for today.

I hate slow play, too. But, you're right they don't know any better. Also, some of it is taking the game too serious or not serious enough (different thread).

Anyone else try this master key for the first time?

Thx, again!

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 07 September 2012 - 06:58 AM.


#16 Tanner25

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:21 PM

View PostJamesBurg, on 06 September 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

When I first bought the instruction in April, 2005, it was a printed book only and the copyright was 2004, so I am guessing that it was first sold in 2004.  I have exchanged some emails with the author, but I have not thought to ask that.

I'm glad I could help you.  I enjoy helping other players.

I do not enjoy playing behind slow players who obviously have no clue as to how to swing a golf club.  It's probably not their fault in many cases, because they have not found simple swing instruction that works.  That's my rant for today.

James,

What is your missed shot with the lead shoulder swing key that you have to be aware of? Is it getting too quick with the lead shoulder or forgetting to move the lead shoulder one way or the other. Just curious what I should guard against.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 07 September 2012 - 08:22 PM.


#17 JamesBurg

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:50 AM

I use a closed stance and swing slightly inside-out just as Noel does.  Occasionally, I will be a bit slow with the rotation of the club in the release, resulting in a slight push.  Just a matter of timing, releasing a little too late in relation to the speed of my lead shoulder.  If I do it once in a round, I will immediately correct it.

That's a huge advantage of using this swing and fully understanding it. You become your own instructor, and no video is needed.

Noel mentions in the instruction, and I have read it elsewhere, that in any good swing the body movements actually slow down a bit during the release.  Maybe someone has proven that with video and electronics.  However, I do not really notice it, and it is not something that I think about.  I believe, if it happens, it is subconscious and it is just part of the timing of my release.  If I hit a slight push, then my timing was off a little too much for my subconscious to correct it.

I hardly ever miss very much right or left.  Although I try to make very precise contact, I will sometimes be a little high or low on the clubface causing the distance to be off a little.

If you have any persistent miss with this swing, I will try to help.

Edited by JamesBurg, 08 September 2012 - 12:54 AM.


#18 Tanner25

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:26 AM

View PostJamesBurg, on 08 September 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

I use a closed stance and swing slightly inside-out just as Noel does.  Occasionally, I will be a bit slow with the rotation of the club in the release, resulting in a slight push.  Just a matter of timing, releasing a little too late in relation to the speed of my lead shoulder.  If I do it once in a round, I will immediately correct it.

That's a huge advantage of using this swing and fully understanding it. You become your own instructor, and no video is needed.

Noel mentions in the instruction, and I have read it elsewhere, that in any good swing the body movements actually slow down a bit during the release.  Maybe someone has proven that with video and electronics.  However, I do not really notice it, and it is not something that I think about.  I believe, if it happens, it is subconscious and it is just part of the timing of my release.  If I hit a slight push, then my timing was off a little too much for my subconscious to correct it.

I hardly ever miss very much right or left.  Although I try to make very precise contact, I will sometimes be a little high or low on the clubface causing the distance to be off a little.

If you have any persistent miss with this swing, I will try to help.


James, Great info, including the closed stance. I'll keep you posted. Thanks, again for your contribution to me and the group.

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 08 September 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#19 loughranb

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:35 AM

I have to say that this does definately work for some golfers - especially those that slice the ball. I actually read the article a when the thread was originally created just out of interest. Took nothing from it as I was working on my lower body movement at the time anyway. Struggled for a few weeks and was a very inconsistent 4 handicap. I was messing around at the driving range while introducing my 4 year old daughter to the game and was really concentrating on the shoulders. Anyway long story short I have tried this basic method and had great results. Very straight shots and at worst a little thin contact.

Now have had a few rounds under par with an average short game at best during that period. I have found that driving my left shoulder towards the target and up produces a more consistent shape for me - but it is all individual feel.

Slicers give it a go!

#20 Tanner25

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

View Postloughranb, on 08 September 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I have to say that this does definately work for some golfers - especially those that slice the ball. I actually read the article a when the thread was originally created just out of interest. Took nothing from it as I was working on my lower body movement at the time anyway. Struggled for a few weeks and was a very inconsistent 4 handicap. I was messing around at the driving range while introducing my 4 year old daughter to the game and was really concentrating on the shoulders. Anyway long story short I have tried this basic method and had great results. Very straight shots and at worst a little thin contact.

Now have had a few rounds under par with an average short game at best during that period. I have found that driving my left shoulder towards the target and up produces a more consistent shape for me - but it is all individual feel.

Slicers give it a go!

Good to hear. I don't take the shldr towards and up, more like just through and maybe around - to the target. Is there a difference?

Tanner


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#21 Pinsplitter59

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:05 PM

quite a few years ago i found a little booklet in a second hand shop.
title: The Golf  Secret
written by an english man around the 1960's.
his secret was the left shoulder going up to make the downswing.
so the idea is not new.
i have tried it at times and it does make for straight hits, but i find i lose distance,
but its a pretty easy move to do and can be a go-to move when your swing has self-destucted.

#22 JamesBurg

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:37 PM

The lead shoulder will go up and around some, but you should not think about that.  You pull with your lead shoulder while keeping your upper body no closer to your target than it was at address.  Your hips will lead subconsciously, moving toward your target and turning.  Where your lead shoulder goes is also subconscious.  It will be determined by the picture in your mind of your swing plane and the clubhead path that you want.  For instance, my clubhead path for my normal shot is slightly inside-out and descending.  Don't forget descending.

All of that is in the Master Key instruction.  Everything in Chapters 2,3,4,5 is very important.  Do not assume that you already know the best way to do some of it.  Read, Read, Read.  Those 4 chapters are only about 24 pages of rather large type.  Read them as many times as you need to.  If anything is not clear to you, Noel says that he will answer email questions as time permits.  I will also help if I can.

#23 JamesBurg

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:47 PM

View PostPinsplitter59, on 08 September 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

quite a few years ago i found a little booklet in a second hand shop.
title: The Golf  Secret
written by an english man around the 1960's.
his secret was the left shoulder going up to make the downswing.
so the idea is not new.
i have tried it at times and it does make for straight hits, but i find i lose distance,
but its a pretty easy move to do and can be a go-to move when your swing has self-destucted.

I refered to "The Golf Secret" in an earlier post in another thread.  In the same post I said that IMO "The Golf Swing and Its Master Key Explained" is much better instruction.  If you use the master key instruction correctly, you will probably find that you gain distance.

#24 shanksalot

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 02:39 AM

My misses with or without this move has been a bad push and push/slice off the tee.  Irons are good but can't seem to keep the driver in play.  Any thoughts ?

#25 JamesBurg

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 06:20 PM

View Postshanksalot, on 09 September 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

My misses with or without this move has been a bad push and push/slice off the tee.  Irons are good but can't seem to keep the driver in play.  Any thoughts ?

That would be an open clubface on the pushes, plus an outside-in path on the push/slices.

What is your stance with the long clubs?  It is much easier to swing those clubs slightly inside-out from a closed stance.  My trailing toe with my driver will be as much as 4" further from the target line than my lead toe.  It will become less than that as I go to shorter clubs.

You could be allowing your upper body to move too much toward your target in your downswing, making it almost impossible to square the clubface.

You could be trying to swing hard, causing the timing of your release to be late.  That could also cause a trailing side takeover, resulting in an OTT move.

I hope you can find some help in this, and I hope you have read the master key instruction.


#26 Vintage1976

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:07 PM

View Postshanksalot, on 09 September 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

My misses with or without this move has been a bad push and push/slice off the tee.  Irons are good but can't seem to keep the driver in play.  Any thoughts ?

+1 on JamesBurg's comments. To add another comment, I also saw some slices off the tee with this method (which I sort of re-found after trying something Tanner25 mentioned about a different downswing method) and I was definitely swinging too hard. When I got back in sequence I found I have time to really turn down my right hand through impact and I hit some monster drives today as well as fairway and hybrids.

Here's something else I noticed today. I tried the Foley method last year with some good results and improved ball striking (I still use it for putting and a lot of partial wedges bc it's so predictable and consistent for me), but was one to one-half club short consistently. I always felt like the reson was because there was no weight shift, or at least not the way I thought there was supposed to be. In decent but not overly warm weather I was easily a full club longer with this method. For me, it definitely works.

And the feeling at impact is incredibly stable. The pulling up of my lead shoulder causes the simultaneous pushing down of my lead foot. After that it's just a question of weather I'm turning my right hand down for a draw or holding my right hand cocked for a fade. To me, my swing feels like (just as an example) Geoff Ogilvy's swing looks. Check golfchannel.com for his Playing Lessons episode if you haven't, it's worth the look.

Edited by heavybladed, 09 September 2012 - 09:08 PM.

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#27 JamesBurg

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:23 PM

From heavybladed: "I was easily a full club longer with this method. For me, it definitely works."

I don't remember exactly how Bob Toski teaches the golf swing, but I always remember a phrase he uses.  It is something like this: "You need effortless power, not powerless effort."  While no swing is completely effortless, the master key swing feels very close to effortless to me.

I don't think I ever get the club to parallel at the top.  I have never been real flexible, but I am not far behind the long hitters.  I also enjoy hitting fairways and greens.

Edited by JamesBurg, 10 September 2012 - 11:23 PM.


#28 juliette91

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:39 PM

View PostJamesBurg, on 10 September 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

From heavybladed: "I was easily a full club longer with this method. For me, it definitely works."

I don't remember exactly how Bob Toski teaches the golf swing, but I always remember a phrase he uses.  It is something like this: "You need effortless power, not powerless effort."  While no swing is completely effortless, the master key swing feels very close to effortless to me.

I don't think I ever get the club to parallel at the top.  I have never been real flexible, but I am not far behind the long hitters.  I also enjoy hitting fairways and greens.

James, thanks again for keeping this thread alive.  My misses lately have been off the charts bad.  I pulled a 9 iron 30 yards off line and pushed a 3w about the same or more offline the other way.  It did throw me and I'm now a 4.4 hcp---and have had good success previously with the master key.

I think, for the pulled shot, I was pushing back with my lead shoulder but not allowing the clubface to naturally turn its face skyward at the parallel to the ground position.  I think I concentrated so much on the shoulder pushing that I held on to the handle too tightly and kept the face closed.  Divot was straight at the target line so the clubface must have been closed.
Have you heard of this before?

As for the way wayward 3w or driver pushed tee shots, I will have to examine those more carefully because upon reloading I didn't have that problem.

Will reread those pages 2,3,4,5.

#29 HoganWoods

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:31 PM

It always amazes me when instructors tell students to drive their lower body consciously in any way.  I just can't do that and I'm sure alot of people have issues grasping that feel as well.  Left shoulder up doesn't feel too bad after a few practice swings.  Is this book available online?

#30 JamesBurg

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostHoganWoods, on 11 September 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

It always amazes me when instructors tell students to drive their lower body consciously in any way.  I just can't do that and I'm sure alot of people have issues grasping that feel as well.  Left shoulder up doesn't feel too bad after a few practice swings.  Is this book available online?

Yes.  I don't know if I can put a link here to a commercial product, but just do a web search for "golf swing master key" or "the golf swing and its master key explained".


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