21 replies to this topic

[Steve Ryan]

If any of you have read any of my posts you may remember that I had been struggling with a hook shot with the driver. Recently, I have managed to solve the issue, so now I am working to become more of a shot-maker with the driver.

Although I have been golfing for over 30 years, only recently have I come to the conclusion that we cannot hit the driver straight on every hole. It's nice to have that shot in the bag, but we are not perfect and cannot do it time and time again without spraying one here and there.

So now, the goal is to be more strategic from the tee box by teeing up on the side of the box where the trouble is on the fairway. For example, if a pond is on the right side of the fairway, tee up on the right side of the box and play a cut down the left side. If trouble is on the left, tee up left and play a draw. Faldo once said that he did not improve until he started hitting the ball towards the trouble. When I first heard this, I thought that he meant to hit the ball towards the trouble with a shot that works away from it. Now, I see that what he really meant was to work the ball towards the trouble from the other side of the fairway.

I did some reading the other night about the double-cross. This term has been thrown around quite a bit and honestly I'm still a little confused about the concept. From my understanding, the double-cross happens when we try to play a fade and the club path crosses the target line twice. The article explained that to play a fade with the driver, we align our body left of the target, swing the club back on the body-line and come down into the ball on the target-line.

So, I went to the range tonight and hit some of the best fades of my life doing this.

Out of curiosity, I tried to do the opposite to hit some draws. I aligned my body to the right, pulled the club back on the target-line and came into the ball on the body line.

This also seemed to work really well. My misses were the same kind of misses that I had when trying to play the fades. The ball went straight in the direction of my body line.

My question is, is this the right way to play fades and draws?

In the past, I always just tried to come into the the ball on an inside path to hit a draw. Is it correct to swing on two paths to make these shots happen?

[smode]

If it works its correct for you!

[bmellisen]

If i am understanding you correctly, when i try to play shots like you are saying, my ball starts at the target and then curves away from it. I typically want my ball to end up at my target. But i could be misunderstanding you. Also, as stated above, if it gets the ball to do what you expect to do, then it works for you.

And for me, a double cross is when the ball goes the opposite way of where i want it to go.  So, trying to hit a fade and hitting a pull draw instead. I dont knoe how many times my shaft crossed the target line, but i dont like that shot.

[MizzyMan]

Well, first of all, I think what most people mean when they say double-cross is that the player wanted to swing from outside to in and hold the face off so the ball would start straight and curve to the right but instead the swing was out to in and the club face also "crossed" or was closed at impact sending the ball on a straight line to the left.

As far as your experiment, it seems either your explanation or execution is off. Your method for fades and draws are not opposite. For fade you say you were lining up left, taking it back on body line, and re-routing inside to ball-target line. And for draws, you say you lined up right, took it back on target line, and re-routed to body line. Maybe for the fade you meant you took it back on the target line and swung down on body line? That would make more sense. And these 2 ways would be one way to play fades and draws depending on face angle at impact. Face SLIGHTLY open to path for fade and SLIGHTLY closed to path for a draw.

[Ampire2121]

It seems like YOU figured out how to work the ball.  If that works for.u keep working at it.  If u can do it on a consistent bases than that shot making works for you.  I jusg went to the range and I've been struggling hitting the driver my self.  Needless to say I couldn't firgure it out when I was squared up I just couldn't hit the balll consistently the target I was aiming.

So I decided to open up my stance and I was amazed.  The ball either went dead straight or I had a slight fade.  I always felt comfortable hitting a fade than a draw with my irons and now.I feel like maybe I have more of a.cut swing.

Ill know.tomorrow since I'm.playing hopefully I.found out my driving.woes

[Dire Wolf]

MizzyMan, on 18 August 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Well, first of all, I think what most people mean when they say double-cross is that the player wanted to swing from outside to in and hold the face off so the ball would start straight and curve to the right but instead the swing was out to in and the club face also "crossed" or was closed at impact sending the ball on a straight line to the left.

That just sounds like a fade that doesn't come off, or the "dreaded straight ball" as they say.  A true double-cross, as far as I've always known, is when you line up for one shot type and get the opposite.

For example, you set up for a fade by aiming left, and instead of cutting the ball in from the left side it STARTS left and goes FURTHER left with a draw or a hook.

Am I wrong?

[Steve Ryan]

Here's a clip from the article I read. Maybe I misinterpreted the instruction for a fade. The link to the article is below.

Quote

The conventional approach to hit a fade is to align the body to the inside of the target line –the imaginary line running from the target back to and through the ball.
Then swing the club along the body line during the backswing and down the target line during the downswing.
However, if a golfer aligns his or her body too much to the inside of the target line and swings the clubface along the target line during the backswing and, down the target line during the downswing, he or she most likely will hit a pull shot instead of a fade,
The ball would fly in the opposite direction of a fade.
Likewise, if a golfer aligns his or her body correctly to the inside of the target line and then does not swing down the target line properly, he or she could end up with a pull or perhaps a hook instead.
The ball would likewise fly in the opposite direction of a fade.

What does he mean by "Inside" the target line? I thought for a fade you always align the body left.

http://howtohitafade...olf-swing-tips/

Edited by Steve Ryan, 18 August 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Dire Wolf]

Those instructions don't make much sense to me.

Generally the ball will MOSTLY start in the direction your clubface is pointed.  The path of the club in relation to the face angle is what imparts degrees of sidespin (actually diagonal spin).


For a fade, you would line up your body and swingline to the left of your target line, with the face angle pointed about where you want the ball to start (again to the left of the target, depending on the curve you're attempting and the club loft), with the face "open" to your swingline and stance.  As you swing along the body line the club contacts the ball on that body/swing path that's to the left, but the clubface is pointed to the right of that path, so you get "fade" spin.

For a draw, just reverse everything (aim right, closed clubface, etc).

The bigger the difference between the face angle and the path, the more drastic the movement of the ball to one side or the other.

This is one way to do it.  There are others.

[Steve Ryan]

Dire Wolf, on 18 August 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Those instructions don't make much sense to me.

Generally the ball will MOSTLY start in the direction your clubface is pointed.  The path of the club in relation to the face angle is what imparts degrees of sidespin (actually diagonal spin).


For a fade, you would line up your body and swingline to the left of your target line, with the face angle pointed about where you want the ball to start (again to the left of the target, depending on the curve you're attempting and the club loft), with the face "open" to your swingline and stance.  As you swing along the body line the club contacts the ball on that body/swing path that's to the left, but the clubface is pointed to the right of that path, so you get "fade" spin.

For a draw, just reverse everything (aim right, closed clubface, etc).

The bigger the difference between the face angle and the path, the more drastic the movement of the ball to one side or the other.

This is one way to do it.  There are others.

Makes perfect sense.

Maybe what the article referred to as "Target" is not where the ball is intended to end up, but the path you want it to start out on.

[MizzyMan]

Dire Wolf, on 18 August 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

MizzyMan, on 18 August 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Well, first of all, I think what most people mean when they say double-cross is that the player wanted to swing from outside to in and hold the face off so the ball would start straight and curve to the right but instead the swing was out to in and the club face also "crossed" or was closed at impact sending the ball on a straight line to the left.

That just sounds like a fade that doesn't come off, or the "dreaded straight ball" as they say.  A true double-cross, as far as I've always known, is when you line up for one shot type and get the opposite.

For example, you set up for a fade by aiming left, and instead of cutting the ball in from the left side it STARTS left and goes FURTHER left with a draw or a hook.

Am I wrong?

No, you're not. I was just saying for simplicity (or what I meant to say) was that by swinging down left of the target line with a closed face the ball will start left (due to face  angle) and go straight left or usually even more left with spin, depending on face/path relationship.

[JPeacockGolf]

Double cross: when you swing across the line of your intended destination, (1st cross) AND the face is closed in relation to that line (2nd cross)  the term is used when one tries to hit a fade with an outside in swing path but closes the face too early.

Now I will use it in a sentence:  I wanted to start the ball down the left and fade it back to the fairway. I double crossed it and it went left of left, see there... It hit that guy in his yard. Let's get the hell outta here.

[drumdude96]

Working the ball is very easy.  It requires the same swing for either shot.  It's the setup that differs.  To hit a draw, grip the club with a slightly closed face angle, put the ball back in your stance a bit, and align your body to the right.  Then just swing along your body line and the ball will start right and curve back to the left.  To hit a fade, grip the club with a slightly open face, put the ball up in your stance a bit, and align your body to the left of target.  Swing along your body line and the ball starts left and curves right.  It really is that simple.  The problem that most people have is convincing themselves to actually swing on a path in line with their body instead of one that is in line with the clubface.  It's mentally difficult to swing the club on a path other than straight with the face.  Once you get that down, working the ball is a piece of cake.

[swbyps]

^^^Thats funny

[iain8328]

This is just my opinion, but I feel that if you're not seeing a good instructor that understands the new ball flight laws, that you need to stray away and just range it out.  See what swing thoughts work for you.  If you start thinking about swinging left, being more inside out, leaving the clubface open to start the ball right, you will ingrain some pretty bad habits.  Of course, this is only if you don't have a knowledgeable instructor watching or explaining.

Just my $.02

[Steve Ryan]

drumdude96, on 18 August 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Working the ball is very easy.  It requires the same swing for either shot.  It's the setup that differs.  To hit a draw, grip the club with a slightly closed face angle, put the ball back in your stance a bit, and align your body to the right.  Then just swing along your body line and the ball will start right and curve back to the left.  To hit a fade, grip the club with a slightly open face, put the ball up in your stance a bit, and align your body to the left of target.  Swing along your body line and the ball starts left and curves right.  It really is that simple.  The problem that most people have is convincing themselves to actually swing on a path in line with their body instead of one that is in line with the clubface.  It's mentally difficult to swing the club on a path other than straight with the face.  Once you get that down, working the ball is a piece of cake.

I like simple explanations. To me, golf is not hard, we just make it hard on ourselves. I always try to find ways to simplify the game. Thanks for the insight

[Late4ttime]

Same concept- different thought process-

I tee up on the side of the box I want the ball to end up on- whether there is trouble or not.

Late-

[drumdude96]

swbyps, on 18 August 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

^^^Thats funny

Why is that so funny?

[bmellisen]

drumdude96, on 19 August 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

swbyps, on 18 August 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

^^^Thats funny

Why is that so funny?

I think he was referencing the post above yours, where the poster used the term doublecross in a sentence about hitting a dude in the head.

[drumdude96]

Steve Ryan, on 18 August 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

drumdude96, on 18 August 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Working the ball is very easy.  It requires the same swing for either shot.  It's the setup that differs.  To hit a draw, grip the club with a slightly closed face angle, put the ball back in your stance a bit, and align your body to the right.  Then just swing along your body line and the ball will start right and curve back to the left.  To hit a fade, grip the club with a slightly open face, put the ball up in your stance a bit, and align your body to the left of target.  Swing along your body line and the ball starts left and curves right.  It really is that simple.  The problem that most people have is convincing themselves to actually swing on a path in line with their body instead of one that is in line with the clubface.  It's mentally difficult to swing the club on a path other than straight with the face.  Once you get that down, working the ball is a piece of cake.

I like simple explanations. To me, golf is not hard, we just make it hard on ourselves. I always try to find ways to simplify the game. Thanks for the insight

One other thing that will help when hitting a fade is to tee the ball a little lower than you would for a draw or straight shot.  This will help you to get more fade spin on the ball.

[Stretch]

Most of us like to move it one way or the other, especially with the driver. My opinion is you can waste a lot of time trying to learn to hit it both ways off the tee -- time you could more usefully devote to to tightening up the "pipe" you naturally send it down. Then you just aim that.

[dlam]

For me I find it easy to use my 3wood if I want to draw and use my driver if I want a fade
I not sure why that is
If I want a straighter ball I straighten my driver fade by teeing the ball higher
And if I want a straighter 3wood draw then I hit it off the deck
I can't explain this but the adjustments in the geometry is not the same for a draw vs fade pattern swing

As an aside I like to position the ball of my left heel with my 3wood as I feel my balance with a draw swing
With the driver I like the ball opposite my left toe as I feel I have better stability with my back leg for a fade

Edited by dlam, 19 August 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[aimleft]

My instructor suggest  a drill where you put and alignment rod in the ground (vertical)  on your ball to target line about 5-10 feet away. The goal is to learn how to shape shots where you aim at the stick and then hit balls that start to the right or left of the stick and curve either to the left of right.

There are a lot of swing thoughts that you can use to accomplish these ball flights. I will say that have a swing path/ impact that is pretty close to neutral will help. By neutral, I mean not to far in-out and not too far out-in. Either of these extremes will set you up to only be able to play a draw or a fade. From a neutral position,  I can use the same alignment  to work the ball by adjusting the ball position and (maybe) the face at address. If you swing path is in to in, moving the ball back will take you to in to out (draw if you keep face slightly closed to path) and moving the ball more forward will make you more out-in (fade if you keep face open to path).

This is a fun little "drill" to mess around with on the range. You will get some strange looks when you occasionally hit the stick