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Effective driver loft - closed face


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#1 WpgMike

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:25 PM

I have a Wishon 919THI driver with 10.5 degrees of loft and a face angle of 3 degrees closed.  I discovered after I bought it that I can't stand setting up 3 degrees closed so I usually square the face up and release like hell with my right hand.  My question is this:  As I understand it, squaring up the face increases the loft.  Can someone tell me what the loft I'm really playing getting when I square up the face?

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#2 SurfinTurf

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:54 PM

I want to see where this thread goes. I believe a 10.5* driver, 3 degrees closed would play at 12*. It's a matter of the head in relation to the shaft, stronger or weaker, which in turn causes the head to sit open or closed.

For example I have a 7.5 degree head. I used a clock ferrule to strengthen the loft by one degree, which causes it to sit 2 degrees open. It's essentially, or should I say effectively a 6.5 degree head now.

The effective loft already assumes you're coming through square I would think.

Someone else chime in please.

Edited by SurfinTurf, 15 August 2012 - 02:12 PM.

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#3 jaskanski

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 02:01 PM

It would be fairly easy to calculate if the head had a 1:1 ratio with the sole, but unfortunately this is rarely the case. Depending on how the sole sits to the ground and how the face sets, it can only really be digitally lofted to get an accurate picture of the the correct loft when square. I'm sure Tom Wishon can school everyone on this, but at least the OP and a few others have grasped the basic principles of effective loft and face angles.

Edited by jaskanski, 15 August 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#4 WpgMike

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

It was an article by Tom that actually made me realize that face angle will impact effective loft.
Driver: Wishon 919thi 11* w/AXE 6 stiff
FW: Wishon 949mc 16.5* w/AXE FW Stiff
Wishon 775hs 21* & 24* w/ S2S White
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#5 SurfinTurf

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:56 PM

I've read several posts where people say they just hover the driver off the ground and open it. Some people seem to think this is the same as playing an open faced driver. It's not though. How could it be?

A square faced driver, say 9* head, open at address and open through impact would play above 9 degrees, just like opening up a wedge. Square through impact would just be 9 degrees regardless of set up.

An open faced driver, say 9 degrees again, square through impact would play below 9 degrees. 2* open equals roughly 1* strong is my understanding.

To answer the OP's question, to the best of my knowledge, you're playing a 10.5* driver set up 3* closed thus 1.5* weak, effective loft of roughly 12 degrees.

EDIT: Though as Jaskanski said, digitally lofting it would probably be the only way to know for sure.

Edited by SurfinTurf, 15 August 2012 - 07:01 PM.

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#6 FAIRWAYFOUND!

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 07:35 PM

That's if the actual loft is 10.5* which I highly doubt. If it's like most drivers and is actually higher lofted at impact and with a square face you are most likely over 13*.

#7 SurfinTurf

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostFAIRWAYFOUND!, on 15 August 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

That's if the actual loft is 10.5* which I highly doubt. If it's like most drivers and is actually higher lofted at impact and with a square face you are most likely over 13*.

Granted. Must suck to find out your effective loft is likely over 13*.
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#8 Pepperturbo

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:31 PM

View PostSurfinTurf, on 15 August 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

I've read several posts where people say they just hover the driver off the ground and open it. Some people seem to think this is the same as playing an open faced driver. It's not though. How could it be?

A square faced driver, say 9* head, open at address and open through impact would play above 9 degrees, just like opening up a wedge. Square through impact would just be 9 degrees regardless of set up.

An open faced driver, say 9 degrees again, square through impact would play below 9 degrees. 2* open equals roughly 1* strong is my understanding.

To answer the OP's question, to the best of my knowledge, you're playing a 10.5* driver set up 3* closed thus 1.5* weak, effective loft of roughly 12 degrees.

EDIT: Though as Jaskanski said, digitally lofting it would probably be the only way to know for sure.

Hovering a club head over the ball, and opening the face up reminds me of doing the same with a sand wedge in the bunker.  We all know thats wrong because the club will close down the face to where it was originally.  Seems to me, the only way to insure the face stays open is the club has to be rolled in the hands, and then grip the club.  Must be getting close to cocktail hour, my head hurts.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 17 August 2012 - 04:34 PM.

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#9 FAIRWAYFOUND!

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:57 PM

A club has to come through impact pretty close to square to hit the ball straight so the measurements of each club are pretty static so I don't know what hovering and gripping the club one way or another will change other than not hitting it straight so yes that's a headache I'd prefer avoiding too in trying to make sense of that. Only way to change those static measurements of each club is to use an adjustable club or bending a driver open or closed as the tour vans did a few years ago.

#10 SurfinTurf

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 17 August 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Hovering a club head over the ball, and opening the face up reminds me of doing the same with a sand wedge in the bunker.  We all know thats wrong because the club will close down the face to where it was originally.  Seems to me, the only way to insure the face stays open is the club has to be rolled in the hands, and then grip the club.  Must be getting close to cocktail hour, my head hurts.

Exactly.

View PostFAIRWAYFOUND!, on 17 August 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

A club has to come through impact pretty close to square to hit the ball straight so the measurements of each club are pretty static so I don't know what hovering and gripping the club one way or another will change other than not hitting it straight so yes that's a headache I'd prefer avoiding too in trying to make sense of that. Only way to change those static measurements of each club is to use an adjustable club or bending a driver open or closed as the tour vans did a few years ago.
.
Yep. I think the hover/regrip thing is a pretty common misconception.  Do tour vans not do this anymore? I'm sure Ping must. That's why certain drivers are made with longer hosels, i15 and i20 for example.

Also can you imagine trying to hit a cut shot with a driver 3* closed?  With a good hold off slash swing I think I could hit into the group behind me! :rofl:

Edited by SurfinTurf, 17 August 2012 - 05:33 PM.

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#11 cxx

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:53 AM

If I were to line up a closed face driver square to the target line with the natural loft of the club it would seem that the shaft would be leaning forward, hands ahead.  Is this just another way to describe the face-shaft relationship? Would playing the ball back in the stance essentially open the face?  I ask because that's the only way I could make sense of the burner that I played a while back.

#12 SurfinTurf

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:52 PM

View Postcxx, on 18 August 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

If I were to line up a closed face driver square to the target line with the natural loft of the club it would seem that the shaft would be leaning forward, hands ahead.  Is this just another way to describe the face-shaft relationship? Would playing the ball back in the stance essentially open the face?  I ask because that's the only way I could make sense of the burner that I played a while back.

Yep, you got it. Bending a driver closed is nothing more than bending the shaft forward,

Moving the ball back would makes sense as well. Did you use a more open stance by any chance?

Edited by SurfinTurf, 18 August 2012 - 02:52 PM.

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#13 cxx

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostSurfinTurf, on 18 August 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

View Postcxx, on 18 August 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

If I were to line up a closed face driver square to the target line with the natural loft of the club it would seem that the shaft would be leaning forward, hands ahead.  Is this just another way to describe the face-shaft relationship? Would playing the ball back in the stance essentially open the face?  I ask because that's the only way I could make sense of the burner that I played a while back.

Yep, you got it. Bending a driver closed is nothing more than bending the shaft forward,

Moving the ball back would makes sense as well. Did you use a more open stance by any chance?

I've always played with a slightly open stance. I don't think it was more open for this one.  This club always had the feeling of the head being behind when hit well.




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