22 replies to this topic

[Tanner25]

Today, I was practicing on a soccer field with freshly cut grass. The balls were sitting perfectly. It was liked it was teed up. Also, there was the perfect firmness below the ball. Not a tight lie and not too fluffy. Well, I striped 10 balls in a row. Perfect shots. I didn't have to worry about the "swing crack" swing thoughts. It was easy. It made me think. The real issue about playing good golf is not about technique, it's about adapting to bad lies, balls above your feet, below your feet. In most rounds of golf, I'd say about 80% of the time, the balls do not lie well. Balls in the rough, on the first first cut, bunkers, in pine needles, hard pan etc. I'd say the better players have the natural skill and hand eye coordination to make the best of these bad lies and the average Joe just suffers. We must be bad golfers, we slice off these lies, top balls off of these bad lies etc. My point is, we try to perfect a swing - when really it's all about the lie we get. Some are better than others at handling bad and so-so lies. Maybe, us average hacks are too hard on ourselves. If we get the perfect lies, we can swing with the best of them. That is just not golf. But, some food for thought.

Cheers

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 10 August 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[that0neguy]

Maybe having a sound swing in technique will allow you to avoid those types of lies more often from tee to green.

[bmellisen]

I didn't have to worry about the "swing crack" swing thoughts


This is why you hit it well.

[Tanner25]

that0neguy, on 10 August 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Maybe having a sound swing in technique will allow you to avoid those types of lies more often from tee to green.

Good point. But, I am even talking about in the fairway. Ball below your feet, side hill - down hill lies, tight lies, sandy ones etc. The average person will have difficulty with this lie. But, for argument sake...move the ball to the perfect lie and the avg Joe can swing like a player. Sure, it's not golf. I am just making a point about the lies (real golf) vs a swing thought that is supposed to make everything better.

Tanner

[Rockminer]

I don't know, I have a perfect lie EVERY time on the tee, but i don't hit a player shot EVERY time

[Tanner25]

Rockminer, on 10 August 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I don't know, I have a perfect lie EVERY time on the tee, but i don't hit
a player shot EVERY time

True. I am talking about iron play. But, even with the ball teed up, we do get balls below and above our feet. Many tee boxes (tee areas) are put on uneven lies.Try your own experiment. Go to the range and search out the perfect lie. The results will prove my point. All of this doesn't make you better. It just brings things into perpective why some players are better than others and a swing tip won't change your life. Call off the search for the secret. There is none. Some players have it and others don't.

Edited by Tanner25, 10 August 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[JJK947]

My ball-striking consistency noticeably improves every time I play a really well manicured course.  I doubt it is a coincidence.

Edited by JJK947, 10 August 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[Tanner25]

JJK947, on 10 August 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

My ball-striking consistency noticeably improves every time I play a really well manicured course.  I doubt it is a coincidence.

Thank you.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

"If we get the perfect lies, we can swing with the best of them."

A lie does not make a Pro. You could be spotted a perfect lie for every shot by a pro in a cash game and still wind up broke.

[CourtJester]

The Pros play on fairways that are as nice or nicer than the greens on your local courses.

[Rockminer]

Tanner25, on 10 August 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Rockminer, on 10 August 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I don't know, I have a perfect lie EVERY time on the tee, but i don't hit
a player shot EVERY time

True. I am talking about iron play. But, even with the ball teed up, we do get balls below and above our feet. Many tee boxes (tee areas) are put on uneven lies.Try your own experiment. Go to the range and search out the perfect lie. The results will prove my point. All of this doesn't make you better. It just brings things into perpective why some players are better than others and a swing tip won't change your life. Call off the search for the secret. There is none. Some players have it and others don't.

I Get what you are saying. Better players, and pros,  are practicing and playing these shots more than we are. They see these shots thousands of times so to them, they are more like our perfect lie shots. And yes it does take some technique. ( or swing thought ) If you pounded balls out of bad lies long enough you would get better at them too.  The people who don't have it, can learn it if they want to

Edited by Rockminer, 10 August 2012 - 08:34 PM.

[Tanner25]

Rockminer, on 10 August 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Tanner25, on 10 August 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Rockminer, on 10 August 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I don't know, I have a perfect lie EVERY time on the tee, but i don't hit
a player shot EVERY time

True. I am talking about iron play. But, even with the ball teed up, we do get balls below and above our feet. Many tee boxes (tee areas) are put on uneven lies.Try your own experiment. Go to the range and search out the perfect lie. The results will prove my point. All of this doesn't make you better. It just brings things into perpective why some players are better than others and a swing tip won't change your life. Call off the search for the secret. There is none. Some players have it and others don't.

I Get what you are saying. Better players, and pros,  are practicing and playing these shots more than we are. They see these shots thousands of times so to them, they are more like our perfect lie shots. And yes it does take some technique. ( or swing thought ) If you pounded balls out of bad lies long enough you would get better at them too.  The people who don't have it, can learn it if they want to

Great point. If you had the time (money and interest) you can get better handling bad lies by practicing and playing more often. But, certainly  core rotation, starting the downswing a split second before the backswing has stopped, creating lag, bumping & clearing the hips, posting/swinging around the left heel and supinating the left wrist - just doesn't cut it for the average player.

[Rockminer]

^^^^^

I agree, if someone has no interest in golf other than trying to hit the ball ok, Then they will never learn to hit out of bad lies and thus hit good shots from pure lies only.

[bhughesgolf]

Poor golfers cant control low point on a perfect flat lie so when presented with differing lies they get more than they bargained for
The game is not played on a range or from perfect lies, so practice your swing on the range and go play golf when on the course.... no bumping the ball onto a good lie or out of divots.... the only way to learn them is to play them as they lie

[PuttingDoctor]

Tanner, I hear the point you're trying to make... And in some respects you're on the right track, on some you've completely derailed.

Let's think about the game as played by the average hack as you call them.  They come to the golf course and without much if any warm up they head for either the tips or one tee forward. They expect to make every shot replicas of the highlight reel on Golf Channel. This group by the way can be doctors, lawyers, mechanics who have enough education and training between them to drain major banks.  Yet none of them have ever taken a golf lesson.  There may have been a time when this group might have taken a clinic or had a pro look at their swing to correct a major fault but still no foundation.

The next group of golfers are able to just walk up to a ball and react to the best of his / her ability took six lessons prior to beginning playing the game.  They have a firm foundation in fundamentals and understand the cause and effect of ball flight.  Their pro started them at the putting green and worked them back toward the tee.  As they developed some skill and understanding of how far each club would on AVERAGE send their ball they began to understand how far back they could tee it up. They show up early prior to their tee time to stretch, putt, chip, warm up on the practice tee .... then they tee off.

The combination of learning how to swing the golf club and being truthful about one's ability helps to take the second group to progress in scoring as they develop a sound golf game.  They play the game ahead of the national average of USGA handicap index.  They play at a pace under 3.5 hours and enjoy their game and the club where they have purchased memberships due to the enjoyment of the game and family atmosphere.

Tanner the above is just a "what if" but as you stated correctly and some have echoed if the conditions are good to better and you're not over thinking every shot you can in fact play better from better conditions.  However if you're not grounded in the fundametals of the golf swing you'll be applying bandaids to the swing you use for the rest of your golfing life.

Tee it forward, play it as it lies.... don't expect the hero shot to work out, in fact don't even try it.  Have fun, play a game and above all enjoy your time outdoors.

[ChipDriver]

Tanner:

Do you scoop the ball?  or do you hit down on it?   My guess is that you do the former...b/c a scooper's ball contact tends to change significantly based on quality of the lie.  However if you learn to hit down on the ball, those changes are much less significant.  Hitting down on the ball provides for a wider margin of error.  

You will feel like you are making "the same swing" more often.

FWIW I'd generally say that almost all my swings from the fairway feel "the same" during a round of golf (expect for balls in a divot; or if mud is on the ball).

Hit down.  

Edited by ChipDriver, 11 August 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Tanner25]

ChipDriver, on 11 August 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Tanner:

Do you scoop the ball?  or do you hit down on it?   My guess is that you do the former...b/c a scooper's ball contact tends to change significantly based on quality of the lie.  However if you learn to hit down on the ball, those changes are much less significant.  Hitting down on the ball provides for a wider margin of error.  

You will feel like you are making "the same swing" more often.

FWIW I'd generally say that almost all my swings from the fairway feel "the same" during a round of golf (expect for balls in a divot; or if mud is on the ball).

Hit down.  

I'd say scooper. I'd like to blame my tendonitis in my right wrist. If I hit a very fat shot, I will be in pain for a few days. I try to avoid that. I might be a scooper anyway. I always thought, if you intentionally hit down, you will loose your wrist angles and (throw away) power.

As I said, from a nice lie. Perfect shot. I don't think it is technique. It is adapting to a bad lie. Some are better than others at doing this. Also, this point is related to ball striking for irons only. I suggest taking this simple challenge and then comment.

Edited by Tanner25, 11 August 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[ChipDriver]

Tanner25, on 11 August 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

ChipDriver, on 11 August 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Tanner:

Do you scoop the ball?  or do you hit down on it?   My guess is that you do the former...b/c a scooper's ball contact tends to change significantly based on quality of the lie.  However if you learn to hit down on the ball, those changes are much less significant.  Hitting down on the ball provides for a wider margin of error.  

You will feel like you are making "the same swing" more often.

FWIW I'd generally say that almost all my swings from the fairway feel "the same" during a round of golf (expect for balls in a divot; or if mud is on the ball).

Hit down.  

I'd say scooper. I'd like to blame my tendonitis in my right wrist. If I hit a very fat shot, I will be in pain for a few days. I try to avoid that. I might be a scooper anyway. I always thought, if you intentionally hit down, you will loose your wrist angles and (throw away) power.

As I said, from a nice lie. Perfect shot. I don't think it is technique. It is adapting to a bad lie. Some are better than others at doing this. Also, this point is related to ball striking for irons only. I suggest taking this simple challenge and then comment.

Maybe so....if you're a scooper.   But "scooping" the ball is generally seen as a mistake or an abnormal way to hit the ball....specifically b/c it introduces more variables and requires a more "perfect lie" than conventional teachings of "hit down".

You're doing it wrong.  

[tom93084]

This thread is funny.

[hoganfan924]

I've played with a lot of different ability players over the years in scrambles and one interesting things that comes up often is that the high hdcp players often prefer hitting balls out of light rough than out of a tightly mown fairway.  Seems especially true on partial wedge distances.  Seems they'd rather have the ball roll off the back of the green than to chunk one short because they flip/scoop and can't control low point

[Jim Waldron]

The truth of the matter is a bit more complex and nuanced than a single issue such as lie vs technique. Clearly both have an influence. I believe there is a hierarchy of major influences with some much more important than others. I place confidence and knowing where to focus your mind during the one and a half second duration of the golf swing on just one single focal point as the most influential on your ball flight, once your physical skill has reached the breaking 100 level.

[Kiwi2]

Tanner25, on 10 August 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Today, I was practicing on a soccer field with freshly cut grass.

Spare  a thought for the poor kid who twisted his ankle after landing in one of your divot holes.
You shouldn't be practising on soccer fields.

[MelloYello]

hoganfan924, on 11 August 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I've played with a lot of different ability players over the years in scrambles and one interesting things that comes up often is that the high hdcp players often prefer hitting balls out of light rough than out of a tightly mown fairway.  Seems especially true on partial wedge distances.  Seems they'd rather have the ball roll off the back of the green than to chunk one short because they flip/scoop and can't control low point

Oh, man. Post of the year.

That's so true. Hitting from tight lies absolutely tests the player.