209 replies to this topic

[crapula]

Drugs are prohibitively expensive, that's why I play golf now.

[ChipDriver]

MelloYello, on 14 August 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

ChipDriver, on 14 August 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

So if the average income is back to 1978 (after inflation adjustment) levels...has the price of golf in your neighborhood risen since 1978?  or fallen?

Thank you, now that's getting around to answering the real question!

But as you say, what about golf? I can count the number of years I've been playing on one hand so I'm no expert on the price of golf!

Is it simply that income levels have dropped with respect to most everything else or has golf also somehow managed to become truly a more expensive hobby?

I would guess that both are to blame.

Salaries based on historical data....golf based on anecdotal (what people tell me).  

Golf courses around my area were in the $30-40 range when I started playing 15 years ago...and now they are $30-40 if you buy them on sale.   Country club dues 15 years ago were about 1/2 of what they are today.  Equipment prices have gone up and down; ball prices have gone up...

That's all I know.  

[4thand11]

The bigger problem (for me) is that golf is more addicting than most other activities!

A round at a decent muni near me costs around $32. Certainly not cheap but it's also 4-4 1/2 of entertainment. Not bad really compared to some other forms of recreation.

The problem is that I want to play golf more often than I generally want to go to the movies, play paintball, or any other recreation that charges a fee.  One round a week, no problem. 2 or 3 rounds... it starts to add up fast.

I always walk and try to play twilight, etc. I rarely buy new clubs and always buy recycled balls. But yeah its an expensive hobby compared to something like tennis where free public courts are readily available.

Best solution is to play less but that's a last resort lol

[MelloYello]

stoverny, on 14 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

The bigger problem (for me) is that golf is more addicting than most other activities!

A round at a decent muni near me costs around $32. Certainly not cheap but it's also 4-4 1/2 of entertainment. Not bad really compared to some other forms of recreation.

The problem is that I want to play golf more often than I generally want to go to the movies, play paintball, or any other recreation that charges a fee.  One round a week, no problem. 2 or 3 rounds... it starts to add up fast.

I always walk and try to play twilight, etc. I rarely buy new clubs and always buy recycled balls. But yeah its an expensive hobby compared to something like tennis where free public courts are readily available.

Best solution is to play less but that's a last resort lol

I hear what you're saying.


That kind of makes me wonder if slow play in some way, shape or form isn't the result of people wanting 'more for their money.' I mean, if I drop $20 on a round that takes 3.5 hours and then make plans the following week to spend $60 on a round...my reaction is to sort of want 'more' from the experience.

I wonder if that has any impact on how people play. I know I've been sort of deflated teeing off on 18 before knowing that my round is over. I wouldn't say it ever makes me slow down, but it sure doesn't make me try and speed up. I can't help but wonder if a smaller investment would help people zip through their rounds a little faster without feeling like they're getting less "entertainment" out of the experience?

Hmmm....

Edited by MelloYello, 14 August 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[Munchies418]

Yes if you wanna play somewhere with good greens, service, and a nice backdrop. You can find deals on golfnow.com

[Pepperturbo]

There's an article written in July/Augest issue of SCGA.org's Fore Magazine that indirectly speaks to the subject of this thread.  Service taxes (all service industries) including Golf, are being considered in CA..page 6.   States, including CA struggle to get spending under raps and cover distorted entitlement costs.  Consequently, politicians are considering ways to pass those costs onto citizens, so they don't have to cut spending for what should be considered as social luxuries.  Makes me sick, but I digress.  What that means to this thread is green fees, range buckets and any other services at golf course will be going up.  If this doesn't pass, still golf courses will be increasing rates; that's what happens in a supply and demand society.  I have already seen some courses stop offering discount green fee's.

Golf courses surly don't want government influencing their costs, and I can't blame them; but they will have no choice if it passes.  My position has always been golf is NOT an entitlement, its a luxury activity; course I grew up on a low income mid-west farm.  As living costs or activity costs go up, certain income earners will be eliminated from this great game.  Golf is NOT like a car. A car is needed, as is car insurance.  Golf is just something we do in our free time.  In America we have high, middle and low income earns and sub levels in each of those groups.

The expansion of our economy over the last thirty years has contributed towards people enjoying access to many luxurious activities and items that they wouldn't enjoy elsewhere.  If, our economic condition stays on the path it is.. be prepared to reassess spending money on golf, and that fancy leased car, etc., etc.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 19 August 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

God I hate presidential election years.

[flyersfan25]

With the help of golfnow.com I get to play some pretty decent courses for good prices.  I too can not afford to spend more than $30 on a round unless I am going on vacation or decide to splurge every now and then but I am able to get some good green fees around me.

One nice course near me puts up one 11:45 AM weekend tee time for $30 so me and my Dad jump on that deal quite a bit, the course usually cost $60 at that time.

A great thing about this time of the year is that it stays light out pretty long, I am able to start at 5PM at one course for $12 and a usually can get in a full 18.

Edited by flyersfan25, 19 August 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[RecreationalHacker]

Aithos, on 30 July 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Golf has always been prohibitively expensive.  I wasn't able to play growing up because my family couldn't afford it, I barely played for a 7 year stretch as an adult because I was barely making ends meet.  The prices you're quoting as "wanting" to pay are on the low end for public courses even where I live in low-cost of living Iowa.

Ditto.  That's why golf participation is not likely to move significantly from current levels in countries like the U.S.  You can still be thrifty, but it costs a fair amount to play.  I am fortunately to have a large number of nice courses that can be played for 18-25 walking in central NY.  I might not golf if I lived in other parts of the country where rates are much higher.

[RecreationalHacker]

Pepperturbo, on 19 August 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

There's an article written in July/Augest issue of SCGA.org's Fore Magazine that indirectly speaks to the subject of this thread.  Service taxes (all service industries) including Golf, are being considered in CA..page 6.   States, including CA struggle to get spending under raps and cover distorted entitlement costs.  Consequently, politicians are considering ways to pass those costs onto citizens, so they don't have to cut spending for what should be considered as social luxuries.  Makes me sick, but I digress.  What that means to this thread is green fees, range buckets and any other services at golf course will be going up.  If this doesn't pass, still golf courses will be increasing rates; that's what happens in a supply and demand society.  I have already seen some courses stop offering discount green fee's.

Golf courses surly don't want government influencing their costs, and I can't blame them; but they will have no choice if it passes.  My position has always been golf is NOT an entitlement, its a luxury activity; course I grew up on a low income mid-west farm.  As living costs or activity costs go up, certain income earners will be eliminated from this great game.  Golf is NOT like a car. A car is needed, as is car insurance.  Golf is just something we do in our free time.  In America we have high, middle and low income earns and sub levels in each of those groups.

The expansion of our economy over the last thirty years has contributed towards people enjoying access to many luxurious activities and items that they wouldn't enjoy elsewhere.  If, our economic condition stays on the path it is.. be prepared to reassess spending money on golf, and that fancy leased car, etc., etc.

Just another way to tax those who already pay significant taxes to fund social/entitlement programs.  These kinds of business taxes will have no (negative) impact on the 4 generations of public assistance living the rental house down the street from me.

[Chris Peterich]

Too expensive at times.. Boycott..or steal some yardage markers a sign or bench.  That will make up for the loss

[vaterman]

golfcardsx2, on 13 August 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

So I think all (ok, maybe not all but most) can agree that golf can be expensive depending on how you choose to purchase your equipment or which courses you play, and that whether or not that is prohibitive is somewhat subjective and dependent upon your personal financial circumstances.  Having said that, I often hear that here in America it is more of a game for the wealthy, whereas in other parts of the world that is not necessarily the case.  I've read that in the UK, Ireland, Australia, etc that golf is much more affordable, as an example.  Can anyone, especially someone from one of those countries, give some insight as to why this is the case?  Is the real estate less expensive?  Are the courses less "manicured" than here in the states, so the maintenance costs are dramatically lower?

From what i see in this thread golf is cheap in America. A round here in my country Will cost you at least 60$. And that is not for a great course. Equipment is more or less double up on your prices. And playing a typical 18 hole course requires that you are a member of a club. You have to have a license in order to play most courses here. A membership is usually around 1500$ a year. And you typically also has to pay a deposit of 1500-2000$ when you join a club. These prices are not including carts. But it is very rare that you see anyone using carts. If you want one it will cost you 40-50 ekstra for one round.

[JWells]

Depends where you live, warmer climates (golf year round) the prices are generally cheaper.  Here in Virginia where we have the seasons and where I live (close to DC) golf is very expensive, I can't play a weekend round under $45-$50 and that's cheap honestly its gonna be $60-$100

[MelloYello]

JWells, on 20 August 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Depends where you live, warmer climates (golf year round) the prices are generally cheaper.  Here in Virginia where we have the seasons and where I live (close to DC) golf is very expensive, I can't play a weekend round under $45-$50 and that's cheap honestly its gonna be $60-$100

You know...that's a great point. I live in SC where most courses stay open in the winter months where temperatures can get down into the 40s and you still see folks out there every day. Hell, I've been guilty of going out when it's in the 30s. That's bad, btw. Shouldn't do that!

Anyway...there's not a lot of upkeep on the courses during those months so that must be more profitable for the courses who can stay open in the winter, I would think?

[Pepperturbo]

Even though a business is seasonal, profits and operating expenses are typically determined annually.  Seasonal rental properties are handled the same way.  Courses that stay open during, what might be seen as off/winter months, generate added income.  However, course maintenance conditions have to be watched, especially greens, as destruction of turf during the winter is easier then imagined.  But, in the end, labor costs to keep the lights on might chew up much of those profits too, as they have turned into a fixed expense.  IMO the advantage of keeping the operation running during off season is to insure not having to hunt for new employees when season opens, and it keeps the facility in the public's eye.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 20 August 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[barkydog1]

I really shouldn't complain (I actually wasn't, just opening a discussion), because by the responses here, I probably live in one of the most economical areas to play golf year-round (Ventura Co., SoCal).   I played Sunday evening, 4:45 tee time, walked, finished at dark for $15.  But what really made it great is that I sold my playing partner a dozen (practically brand new) Pro v1's that I pick up while hiking near a course by my house for $12, so my round actually cost $3.  I do this about once a week, and it's one of the ways I make 2-3 rounds a week happen.

[mosesgolf]

It's only as expensive as you wanna make it.  Fantastic equpment (previous models though) with super high end shafts can be had for about 30 cents on the dollar or less.  There is twilight and supe twilight.  One doesn't have to pay to play at higher end courses.  Local munis can be great and not a big hit on the wallet.  Now if you want the latest and greatest and play at TPC courses all the time then yes.

[rustyputterguy]

mosesgolf, on 26 August 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

It's only as expensive as you wanna make it.  Fantastic equpment (previous models though) with super high end shafts can be had for about 30 cents on the dollar or less.  There is twilight and supe twilight.  One doesn't have to pay to play at higher end courses.  Local munis can be great and not a big hit on the wallet.  Now if you want the latest and greatest and play at TPC courses all the time then yes.

You're assuming every area has affordable muni's within a reasonable driving distance. You are wrong.

[Pepperturbo]

rustyputterguy, on 26 August 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

mosesgolf, on 26 August 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

It's only as expensive as you wanna make it.  Fantastic equpment (previous models though) with super high end shafts can be had for about 30 cents on the dollar or less.  There is twilight and supe twilight.  One doesn't have to pay to play at higher end courses.  Local munis can be great and not a big hit on the wallet.  Now if you want the latest and greatest and play at TPC courses all the time then yes.

You're assuming every area has affordable muni's within a reasonable driving distance. You are wrong.

I agree!

[ElVerde]

rustyputterguy, on 26 August 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

mosesgolf, on 26 August 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

It's only as expensive as you wanna make it.  Fantastic equpment (previous models though) with super high end shafts can be had for about 30 cents on the dollar or less.  There is twilight and supe twilight.  One doesn't have to pay to play at higher end courses.  Local munis can be great and not a big hit on the wallet.  Now if you want the latest and greatest and play at TPC courses all the time then yes.

You're assuming every area has affordable muni's within a reasonable driving distance. You are wrong.

So you're arguing that golf is prohibitively expensive in areas where it is prohibitively expensive?
And the guy you quoted is arguing that golf isn't prohibitively expensive in areas where it is not prohibitively expensive?

This is bloody rocket science. Let's all spend the next 5 days trying to find new and exciting ways to say "it's all relative."

[rustyputterguy]

ElVerde, on 27 August 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

rustyputterguy, on 26 August 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

mosesgolf, on 26 August 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

It's only as expensive as you wanna make it.  Fantastic equpment (previous models though) with super high end shafts can be had for about 30 cents on the dollar or less.  There is twilight and supe twilight.  One doesn't have to pay to play at higher end courses.  Local munis can be great and not a big hit on the wallet.  Now if you want the latest and greatest and play at TPC courses all the time then yes.

You're assuming every area has affordable muni's within a reasonable driving distance. You are wrong.

So you're arguing that golf is prohibitively expensive in areas where it is prohibitively expensive?
And the guy you quoted is arguing that golf isn't prohibitively expensive in areas where it is not prohibitively expensive?

This is bloody rocket science. Let's all spend the next 5 days trying to find new and exciting ways to say "it's all relative."

I apologize if my post frustrated you. I hope you get better soon.

Edited by rustyputterguy, 27 August 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[SketchyBFC]

It can be expensive, but it doesn't have to be prohibively so.  I'm not a member of a club at the moment, but that might change.  All my clubs except my putter (which only cost £7 BTW) are 2nd hand, so is my bag and trolley.  There's a par 63 pay-and-play I use which is £10/round - not the most taxing course but really good for switching up with the driving range, it's attached to a par 70 course so the grass is always well kept and it's never been busy when I've been.  I make use of vouchers and discounts on stuff i'm going to use, e.g. bulk cards at the range, 2-for-1 green fee vouchers and split the fee with playing partner, Groupon vouchers, etc.

At least all of this is what i tell my wife...

[ElVerde]

rustyputterguy, on 27 August 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I apologize if my post frustrated you. I hope you get better soon.

I apologize if mine frustrated you. It wasn't directed at you, just the general tone of this thread. We're going around in circles here people.

[ruascott]

Pepperturbo, on 14 August 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

JWells, on 14 August 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

ChipDriver, on 14 August 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

At least many of us can actually PLAY golf.

In Japan there are generations of people who are "driving range" golfers who literally have beaten a ton of balls at the range, but have never been out to a golf course to play.  

Why? Because of price? Or location?

Price of public golf in Japan is awfully high, and private clubs are beyond the imagination of average Joe American.  We're talking well over 250k++ to 1M for some memberships.  Biggest influence is cost of RE.  @ChipDriver nailed it - there are at least two generations of driving range golfers that have never played a round of golf, and many have good paying jobs.  I hate to be the bearer of bad.. but America might get a taste of that in the future if...

Oh good grief....I've read a lot of this post and didn't respond until this. You are saying that golf will be out of reach entirely for a huge swath of the population in the future?? We have absolutely nothing, NOTHING, in common withJapan related to this discussion

[ruascott]

ChipDriver, on 14 August 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

MelloYello, on 14 August 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

ChipDriver, on 14 August 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

So if the average income is back to 1978 (after inflation adjustment) levels...has the price of golf in your neighborhood risen since 1978?  or fallen?

Thank you, now that's getting around to answering the real question!

But as you say, what about golf? I can count the number of years I've been playing on one hand so I'm no expert on the price of golf!

Is it simply that income levels have dropped with respect to most everything else or has golf also somehow managed to become truly a more expensive hobby?

I would guess that both are to blame.

Salaries based on historical data....golf based on anecdotal (what people tell me).  

Golf courses around my area were in the $30-40 range when I started playing 15 years ago...and now they are $30-40 if you buy them on sale.   Country club dues 15 years ago were about 1/2 of what they are today.  Equipment prices have gone up and down; ball prices have gone up...

That's all I know.  

Around here golf prices are the same or cheaper than they were 15 to 20 years ago. Country clubs cost thousands to join, now initiation fees are waived. Drivers have cost $400 ever since the Great Big Bertha in the mid 90s.....and has not gone up since. Balls are the only thing more expensive.

[ruascott]

Pepperturbo, on 27 August 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

rustyputterguy, on 26 August 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

mosesgolf, on 26 August 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

It's only as expensive as you wanna make it.  Fantastic equpment (previous models though) with super high end shafts can be had for about 30 cents on the dollar or less.  There is twilight and supe twilight.  One doesn't have to pay to play at higher end courses.  Local munis can be great and not a big hit on the wallet.  Now if you want the latest and greatest and play at TPC courses all the time then yes.

You're assuming every area has affordable muni's within a reasonable driving distance. You are wrong.

I agree!

Absolutely pointless to this conversation. Everything costs a lot more in high demand, high cost areas based solely on the fact that land and real estate is expensive. There is nothing special or unique about golf in these areas different than any other area of the economy, particularly housing

[Pepperturbo]

ruascott, on 28 August 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Around here golf prices are the same or cheaper than they were 15 to 20 years ago. Country clubs cost thousands to join, now initiation fees are waived. Drivers have cost $400 ever since the Great Big Bertha in the mid 90s.....and has not gone up since. Balls are the only thing more expensive.

Nobody that was around in the forties or fifties uses a time span of 15-20 to predicate economic cycles in America.  The first economic panic was in the late 1800's; it lasted over 20yrs.  Later they realized it was a Depression; then along came 1929, and that lasted to late 1941.  From then on it took a number of years before inflation took hold, followed by a many years where America prospered.  My point is our future economic cycles don't evolve around what happened in the last 15-20 years.  Vision has to be broader.  And, NO it's not absolutely pointless to determining what could become prohibitively expensive.  Supply and Demand Capitalism affects everyone, to some extent or another.

[fredmg]

Just chiming in here.

Don't play the latest and greatest in equipment and most of my golf is played on a nine hole executive course.  I do play a few full 18-hole rounds.

While I don't always get the "every club in the bag" experience but it keeps the cost down and does not take as long to play.

[ChipDriver]

ruascott, on 28 August 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Oh good grief....I've read a lot of this post and didn't respond until this. You are saying that golf will be out of reach entirely for a huge swath of the population in the future?? We have absolutely nothing, NOTHING, in common withJapan related to this discussion

No - I'm saying that golf in Japan IS prohibitively expensive - that it's common to find ordinary people who can't afford to actually play on a course...they can just afford to go to the range.  There's a whole "culture" of people who have BEAUTIFUL swings at the range...and have never played on a real golf course b/c it's too expensive.

We're not nearly as bad here.

[Pepperturbo]

ruascott, on 28 August 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Oh good grief....I've read a lot of this post and didn't respond until this. You are saying that golf will be out of reach entirely for a huge swath of the population in the future?? We have absolutely nothing, NOTHING, in common withJapan related to this discussion

Absolutely nothing... Check out this article.  Just change the number of digits and the fact that Japan is about the size of Montana.  I'd say their fiscal condition is quite similar to ours.
http://www.telegraph...in-a-month.html