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Confused on Rules for Iphone Golf GPS


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#31 phil75070

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:21 PM

View PostSHIVAN, on 26 August 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Unfortunately, I believe the RoG are pretty clear on this one, and despite what a private club might require, I don't know how you can make 18 "X" scores for all 18 holes you did not actually play under the RoG, and consider it a true handicap.

That is purely a strawman.

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#32 SHIVAN

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:27 PM

View Postphil75070, on 26 August 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

View PostSHIVAN, on 26 August 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Unfortunately, I believe the RoG are pretty clear on this one, and despite what a private club might require, I don't know how you can make 18 "X" scores for all 18 holes you did not actually play under the RoG, and consider it a true handicap.

That is purely a strawman.

It is?  Please explain.  Not sure you understand the concept of a strawman argument.  I've taken exactly what is stated here, applied the actual rule against it, and then stated why that wouldn't work, under the RoG.  I did not contextually modify the claims made by others in order to attack a position that is not supported here.

#33 SHIVAN

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:29 PM

http://www.usga.org/...Or-Not-To-Post/

I mean, just stay home and post par + any hdcp strokes.  Saves you five hours, since using the non-conforming device means you didn't actually play under the RoG.

Edited by SHIVAN, 26 August 2012 - 01:31 PM.


#34 Andy L

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:32 PM

View Postjaskanski, on 26 August 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:


Huh?
It's worth noting that golf existed and people fared just fine long before any mobile device was even created. My advice is to leave your iphone or whatever in the car where it belongs prior to any round. Use your skill and judgement (and maybe a yardage chart) to get to grips with navigating your way around a golf course. Then perhaps post your impressive score on Facebook after your round in the parking lot. GPS on the course? get over yourself - it's just another piece of information to confirm a distance you can't hit.

With that silly logic we'd still be using persimmon woods and 1970's technology balls.  If you are using modern golf equipment then that would make you a hypocrite.

GPS helps pace of play by not having to look around for yardage markers-- not all courses have 100, 150, 200 stakes, leaving you to look around for sprinkler heads or fairway embedded markers--- waste of time

#35 SHIVAN

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

View PostAndy L, on 26 August 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

And if you ever exceed the speed limit by even 1 mph I don't know how you can consider yourself to be a law abiding citizen.

^^^With this level of debate^^^, I may need to get my four year old on here to type out any further responses to you.  Be prepared though, if this is your most stunning logic, he will get the best of you in no time.


#36 jaskanski

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:38 PM

View PostAndy L, on 26 August 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

View Postjaskanski, on 26 August 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Huh?
It's worth noting that golf existed and people fared just fine long before any mobile device was even created. My advice is to leave your iphone or whatever in the car where it belongs prior to any round. Use your skill and judgement (and maybe a yardage chart) to get to grips with navigating your way around a golf course. Then perhaps post your impressive score on Facebook after your round in the parking lot. GPS on the course? get over yourself - it's just another piece of information to confirm a distance you can't hit.

With that silly logic we'd still be using persimmon woods and 1970's technology balls.  If you are using modern golf equipment then that would make you a hypocrite.

GPS helps pace of play by not having to look around for yardage markers-- not all courses have 100, 150, 200 stakes, leaving you to look around for sprinkler heads or fairway embedded markers--- waste of time
If you can provide any evidence that GPS helps with pace of play, then I'd like to see it.

#37 SHIVAN

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:41 PM

View PostAndy L, on 26 August 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

The android devices that I have don't have a built-in compass app.  Following the logic below, my phone is perfectly legal--- http://www.usga.org/...owchartv1-3.pdf

Then you are potentially talking about a CONFORMING device, and not discussing the iPhone, as referenced in the thread title?  Interesting.

#38 Andy L

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:41 PM

View PostSHIVAN, on 26 August 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

View PostAndy L, on 26 August 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

And if you ever exceed the speed limit by even 1 mph I don't know how you can consider yourself to be a law abiding citizen.

^^^With this level of debate^^^, I may need to get my four year old on here to type out any further responses to you.  Be prepared though, if this is your most stunning logic, he will get the best of you in no time.

You're the one that started the silly argument.



The android devices that I have don't have a built in compass app and therefore are legal.  Follow the logic of the flow chart below and you are wrong, even in your "purest" view.

http://www.usga.org/...owchartv1-3.pdf

#39 Andy L

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:44 PM

View Postjaskanski, on 26 August 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

View PostAndy L, on 26 August 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

View Postjaskanski, on 26 August 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Huh?
It's worth noting that golf existed and people fared just fine long before any mobile device was even created. My advice is to leave your iphone or whatever in the car where it belongs prior to any round. Use your skill and judgement (and maybe a yardage chart) to get to grips with navigating your way around a golf course. Then perhaps post your impressive score on Facebook after your round in the parking lot. GPS on the course? get over yourself - it's just another piece of information to confirm a distance you can't hit.

With that silly logic we'd still be using persimmon woods and 1970's technology balls.  If you are using modern golf equipment then that would make you a hypocrite.

GPS helps pace of play by not having to look around for yardage markers-- not all courses have 100, 150, 200 stakes, leaving you to look around for sprinkler heads or fairway embedded markers--- waste of time
If you can provide any evidence that GPS helps with pace of play, then I'd like to see it.

Have you ever played golf at a poorly marked course or one that only used low profile embedded markers?  One doesn't have to try hard to see that not having to walk/ride to find a marker for estimation purposes would save time.  My GPS hangs on my bag, I glance at the yardage, select a club and go--- much faster.

#40 SHIVAN

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:48 PM

View PostAndy L, on 26 August 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

View PostSHIVAN, on 26 August 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

View PostAndy L, on 26 August 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

And if you ever exceed the speed limit by even 1 mph I don't know how you can consider yourself to be a law abiding citizen.

^^^With this level of debate^^^, I may need to get my four year old on here to type out any further responses to you.  Be prepared though, if this is your most stunning logic, he will get the best of you in no time.

You're the one that started the silly argument.



The android devices that I have don't have a built in compass app and therefore are legal.  Follow the logic of the flow chart below and you are wrong, even in your "purest" view.

http://www.usga.org/...owchartv1-3.pdf

Actually, I was remaining on topic, and discussing the non-conforming devices.  Specifically, the iPhone.

I did not bring up potentially conforming devices to bolster my argument, for, or against.  I am not a purist on the RoG.  I am simply trying to answer someone's legitimate question in a good faith manner, so as to provide assistance.

What I am not trying to do is create a hostile environment, where a relatively black and white issue is a point of contention.




TL;DR version -- grow up.

Edited by SHIVAN, 26 August 2012 - 01:48 PM.


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#41 Andy L

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 01:58 PM

Shivan,
There are several people on this thread that have morphed this from purely the iPhone to "smartphones as being non-conforming.

You, also made a statement that smartphones are non-conforming here http://www.golfwrx.c...30#entry5532277 that "SmartPhones" are non-conforming.

According to the USGA flowchart, you would appear to be wrong.  

Furthermore Shivan, you are the one that elevated this discussion to a level of silliness when you said this "Unfortunately, I believe the RoG are pretty clear on this one, and despite what a private club might require, I don't know how you can make 18 "X" scores for all 18 holes you did not actually play under the RoG, and consider it a true handicap." and "I mean, just stay home and post par + any hdcp strokes.  Saves you five hours, since using the non-conforming device means you didn't actually play under the RoG."

My mention of speed limit violation was simply to illustrate a comparatively similar silly position.

If you find getting to the truth to be hostile, perhaps because your position is being discredited, then that is unfortunate for you.

Edited by Andy L, 26 August 2012 - 02:34 PM.


#42 jaskanski

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 02:08 PM

Have you ever played behind a group who insist on constantly checking yardages from every conceivable reference point on the course (even when stood next to yardage markers) - recheck - "hang on... I'm waiting for a signal" , reconfirm with a laser (WTF?) and then subsequently fail to hit the given yardage? Even from 30 yards (no kidding) Show me a course full of GPS users and I'll show you a 5-hour round.

#43 Andy L

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 02:22 PM

View Postjaskanski, on 26 August 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Have you ever played behind a group who insist on constantly checking yardages from every conceivable reference point on the course (even when stood next to yardage markers) - recheck - "hang on... I'm waiting for a signal" , reconfirm with a laser (WTF?) and then subsequently fail to hit the given yardage? Even from 30 yards (no kidding) Show me a course full of GPS users and I'll show you a 5-hour round.

I've also seen people waste time looking for yardage markers, then pace off the distance and duff the shot.  If people are slow and want to dink around, then they will play slow no matter what.  But if you want to play faster, having distances readily available is one way to help save time.

#44 TM_HOYER

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostSnowPlow, on 26 August 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

View PostTM_HOYER, on 26 August 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

View Postmatchavez, on 24 August 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

"If there are any other features or applications on the phone that gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player’s play, such as a temperature gauge, compass or anemometer, this would render the device non-conforming regardless of whether these features or applications are used or not."
This sentence is the worst thing the USGA has going right now.

This is the fairest way to handle this issue. The same rules apply to everyone from the weekend golfer to the PGA Tour pros. They made the rules so if you are playing against someone. you should be able to know the device your competitor is not being used in a way that breeches the rules. The only way to make sure that is the case is to rule that only devices that conform to the rules can be used. Do not blame the USGA for the fact smartphone apps are non-conforming. Blame the people that wrote the apps in order to make a buck even although they are non-conforming. They did not care about the rules, they cared about the money it would put in their wallet.

Your hypocrisy is astounding. Skycaddie was selling their GPS systems for years to the public which were non conforming up until 2007. Should they be blamed for selling a product that was non-conforming to make money, did they care about the rules then? These app developers are doing no different now. People have more choices at a fraction of the cost and apparently more people are going that direction....time to move on. Heck....even Golf Digest has got in on the act by partnering up with one of the apps. These apps have been around for years...they are only becoming more popular not less. It's not some fad that is going to go away, more and more people are seeing the value in them, non conforming or not, just as people bought non conforming Skycaddies at the time.

I did not buy my Skycaddie until they were declared conforming. The USGA looked at this and came out with a ruling that made it fair for everyone. They made it clear the device had to be within the rules so the person you are playing against could not question if you were accessing non-conforming information. Golf has been called a game of honor but there are still a lot of less than honorable people playing. And they would use non-conforming info against you in a match if given the opportunity. Also before the Skycaddie, Golf Logix (using Garmin hardware), Golf Buddy, and Bushnell were declared conforming, there was not the kind of whining that is going on by the app users. You knew the device was non-conforming and it could not be used in a USGA event or as a round for your handicap. Plus yes, just like the app developers, they were in it for what it would do for their pocketbook.
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#45 TM_HOYER

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 06:39 PM

View Postjaskanski, on 26 August 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Have you ever played behind a group who insist on constantly checking yardages from every conceivable reference point on the course (even when stood next to yardage markers) - recheck - "hang on... I'm waiting for a signal" , reconfirm with a laser (WTF?) and then subsequently fail to hit the given yardage? Even from 30 yards (no kidding) Show me a course full of GPS users and I'll show you a 5-hour round.

That is just an well worn excuse given by people that get their yardages the olde fashion way, walking them off. You will see nothing but the rear of the carts of people using Skycaddies. I just played 18 holes today in 3 hours using my Skycaddie. And that included figuring out adjustments I had make due to elevation changes along with non-flat lies. Courses in the North Georgia mountains require more than just a yardage reading.

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#46 MSchad

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 12:28 PM

+1 TM
5 to 8 of us (all GPS users) play in the early mornings (1st tee times). Even those times when there are only 5 of us and we play in a single group, 18 holes only take 3 to 3 1/2 hours. Pull up next to your ball, look at the GPS, see yardage, grab club, line up and hit the ball. Slow players are slow, not because they us a GPS, Laser or yardage markers.

#47 matchavez

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:27 AM

View PostTM_HOYER, on 26 August 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:


I did not buy my Skycaddie until they were declared conforming. The USGA looked at this and came out with a ruling that made it fair for everyone. They made it clear the device had to be within the rules so the person you are playing against could not question if you were accessing non-conforming information. Golf has been called a game of honor but there are still a lot of less than honorable people playing. And they would use non-conforming info against you in a match if given the opportunity. Also before the Skycaddie, Golf Logix (using Garmin hardware), Golf Buddy, and Bushnell were declared conforming, there was not the kind of whining that is going on by the app users. You knew the device was non-conforming and it could not be used in a USGA event or as a round for your handicap. Plus yes, just like the app developers, they were in it for what it would do for their pocketbook.

Wow... this is BS. I don't get the opportunity to check if an opponent's driver is conforming. I don't get to check that the ball he uses is conforming. Hell, it would be a stretch to assume my opponent *never* uses a foot wedge. I am to believe that even though I must generally trust an opponent to call his own rules, using an app that may also have a compass in the system is an issue?

If someone really wants to cheat, they will cheat. That is just the way of the world. Penalising people who do not cheat because there is the *possibility* they could is insulting. Like the Leupold 4i - you have to have the "I'm cheating" flag on it to cheat, yet the whole device is illegal because you might. Well, I might improve a lie, and I might use a mulligan, but I don't. I also don't assume my opponent does, either. If you choose to say "no phones" because it's a tournament, so be it. However for handicapping purposes, it is absurd. So is the idea that a compass is helpful, or that an anemometer is de regeur for a phone.

If I pull out a Kestrel, I'm testing the environment. If I pull out my iPhone, I'm using an app that is designed to be fair. This is just the USGA being lazy. If for nothing else, the USGA should start safe-listing apps, and providing advice, not blanket edicts that are unreasonable. They should have learned from the GPS problem, but didn't. This is not going away.
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#48 Sawgrass

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:09 PM

There is an oddity here that hasn't been addressed yet.  The Rules don't allow you to use an iPhone for distance measuring since the iPhone has other illegal functions built in.  Some of you have expressed a theory that this is to avoid people secretly using the illegal aps.  I suppose that's so, but here's the clunker:

The Rules actually allow you to use an iPhone to make an innocent phone call, as long as you're not using it to measure distances.  So someone could thereby pretend to be using it for a call (or other legal purpose) and secretly use it for the illegal purposes.  That abnormality in the Rules should be addressed.  To me, simply using the honor system would work, where you were honor-bound to only use a smartphone for distance purposes and not elevation, temperature, wind speed, slope of a green or whatever.

#49 kevcarter

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:27 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 05 September 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

There is an oddity here that hasn't been addressed yet.  The Rules don't allow you to use an iPhone for distance measuring since the iPhone has other illegal functions built in.  Some of you have expressed a theory that this is to avoid people secretly using the illegal aps.  I suppose that's so, but here's the clunker:

The Rules actually allow you to use an iPhone to make an innocent phone call, as long as you're not using it to measure distances.  So someone could thereby pretend to be using it for a call (or other legal purpose) and secretly use it for the illegal purposes.  That abnormality in the Rules should be addressed.  To me, simply using the honor system would work, where you were honor-bound to only use a smartphone for distance purposes and not elevation, temperature, wind speed, slope of a green or whatever.

Agree completely.
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#50 phil75070

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:50 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 05 September 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:



The Rules actually allow you to use an iPhone to make an innocent phone call, as long as you're not using it to measure distances.

Which is true. Then if it were so innocent to pull out a phone with no intent to use an it for golf purposes I am surprised that some of these social media conscious pros, Poulter being one of many that frequently use twitter, aren't tweeting during rounds. Not any different from making a phone call as far as I can see. Perhaps this is one area where the USGA recognizes that amateurs may have need of a phone during a round of golf in case of emergencies both on and off the course.

If the honor system were used to justify everything then we wouldn't need 34 Rules and a telephone book-sized list of Decisions. We could go back to the original 13 Rules published in 1745.

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#51 goplutus

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:22 PM

so....is using the usga rules of golf app during play a violation of the rules?

#52 TM_HOYER

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:45 PM

View Postgoplutus, on 05 September 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

so....is using the usga rules of golf app during play a violation of the rules?

It is not against the rules.
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#53 mwmgolfx

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:50 AM

Interesting and interesting.  I talked to the NJ golf association officials (they specifically ban all smart phones) and the Florida Golf associations officials - they don't.

NJ stated flatly that they ban them because of the potential for other non-conforming apps on the phone.  Not whether they are in use or not.  They can't police the phones and similar to the Lasers with slope, they just ban everything that has the potential, regardless of whether it could be used or is used.  And they indicated that it was all rounds, local tournaments, GHIN score posting, whatever.  All these rounds were to be considered played not conforming to the rules of golf.

Florida felt it really did not matter.  Up to the higher level scratch tournaments where all distance measuring devices were illegal you could use anything as long as the app or device was confirming itself.  Having other non-conforming functions didn't matter as long as they were not in use.

And I found in following up with several other associations that a similar difference was found.  Some allowed them some didn't.

Two totally different attitudes by USGA regional people.

So there is some differences of opinion within the USGA itself.   So times are changing and I suspect the USGA itself will eventually change (but remember they are extremely dinosaur like and very very slow to change - look how many years it took to eliminate the stymie.)

Personally, I don't see any issues with Iphones or other smart apps as long as they aren't used excessively.  Pace of play is an issue.  I've found that my GPS (and laser before that) speed up my play as I just glance at the yardage - grab club and go.  I've played with people that don't use something and they're always slower figuring out the yardage.  Not all but most.  Serious better players can quite often just estimate the yardage or know the course well enough to not need anything but your typical 15-30 handicap are just slow getting the yardage. And it can be painful watching them.

#54 Fatz

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:35 PM

Here is where I miss the boat.

I can't use a GPS for yardage, but a guy who gets to survey the course for 2 days and carry your bag (one can argue that vs push cart or carry is a physical advantage no? And while we're at it power carts).

But I can't use a device to tell me distance or an aerial image when I haven't seen the course before?

Pure and outright BS.  IMO.  

Caddies are more helpful than a GPS.  It's a second brain into the mix and a second set of eyes.  Jack Nicklaus won a last green jacket admitting he was literally blind putting.  Couldn't see F-all and his son read and aimed the putts.

Riiiiiiiiight, but my iphone yardage is the advantage to my handicap which at most would win me bragging rights as an amateur down the line?  I still have to hit the shot.  In this case pros get a second opinion and an aide to win serious money.  

Yea whatever.

When comes time to abide by the rules I'll have a proper rangefinder.  But for my weekend handicapped rounds, I use my golfshot. And I still suck.

#55 phil75070

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:20 AM

A player and a caddie are "team" and specifically addressed and allowed by the Rules. You, too, should you choose to, can use a caddie as well.

You CAN use a device that will give you yardage and an aerial view of the hole as many dedicated golf GPS's do just that. You just can't use a device that provides that information if it is capable of providing other information that is specifically disallowed by the Rules.

I do agree that all the information in the world still falls short of executing the shot, On an amateur level, if that information is used and is, in fact, helpful to the golfer it is to their disadvantage if it lowers their handicap and they are faced with playing without that artificial assistance in a tournament.

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#56 SlowRain

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:05 PM

Play on the golf channel Am Tour and their handbook is pretty clear.

13. Distance Measuring Devices
USGA-conforming distance measuring devices are allowed at all local, Major, and National tournaments.
14. Cell Phones and Electronic Devices
Cell phones and other electronic devices that can be used to communicate are prohibited and may not be used for any reason other than in case of emergency (penalty is disqualification). Electronic devices made for the sole purpose of measuring distance (SkyCaddie, Bushnell etc) may be used so long as the device deals with factual information only and does not have the ability to calculate slope, grade, wind etc (penalty is disqualification). A player may request to have his phone on in case of emergency, but this must be declared to the starter prior to play

#57 northgolf

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

All cell phones should be banned from the golf course just for being annoying. Seriously, you can't be out of contact for 5 hours?

#58 MDCallaway

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:01 PM

I use the golf shot lite app strictly as a scorecard and keeping my stats. I have a skycaddie so use the phone as nothing more than a scorecard. I do turn these scores in for my handicap. I'm guessing this is illegal?

#59 ennead

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

View PostMDCallaway, on 09 October 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I use the golf shot lite app strictly as a scorecard and keeping my stats. I have a skycaddie so use the phone as nothing more than a scorecard. I do turn these scores in for my handicap. I'm guessing this is illegal?

I don't think it is illegal.  You just can't use it for measuring distances or anything illegal.  Which, thinking about it, is a pretty stupid contradiction.  Apparently you are to be trusted that you are not using your phone to measure distance, but the reason you can't use your phone to measure distance is because you can't be trusted to not use your phone to do something against the rules.  Huh?

I used my iPhone for GPS for most of rounds this year, tourney's and not.  No one ever said anything.  This is the first I heard they were not allowed.  We have some pretty serious rules nazi types in our club, too.  I guess my 13.4 handicap is not valid and my hopes for qualifying for the US Open are out the window.

Stupid.

#60 Sawgrass

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:05 PM

View Postennead, on 11 October 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

View PostMDCallaway, on 09 October 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I use the golf shot lite app strictly as a scorecard and keeping my stats. I have a skycaddie so use the phone as nothing more than a scorecard. I do turn these scores in for my handicap. I'm guessing this is illegal?

I don't think it is illegal.  You just can't use it for measuring distances or anything illegal.  Which, thinking about it, is a pretty stupid contradiction.  Apparently you are to be trusted that you are not using your phone to measure distance, but the reason you can't use your phone to measure distance is because you can't be trusted to not use your phone to do something against the rules.  Huh?

I used my iPhone for GPS for most of rounds this year, tourney's and not.  No one ever said anything.  This is the first I heard they were not allowed.  We have some pretty serious rules nazi types in our club, too.  I guess my 13.4 handicap is not valid and my hopes for qualifying for the US Open are out the window.

Stupid.

I hate to say it but I must agree that "Stupid" is a fair summary.  And almost worse it the USGA's writings on the topic, which are close to incomprehensible.  If you follow the link in post #20 in this thread it will make your head spin.

(The chart referenced in post #38 is fairly clear, but it follows the "stupid" thought process.)  IMO we'll see welcome improvements in this area.


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