59 replies to this topic

[BrianL99]

BrianL99, on 18 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Who are these experts that distinguish between hitting and stroking?   First I've heard this...

By definition in a swinging gate stroke, the toe passes the heel of the putter.  Which I think in most people's mind, would more likely be considered a "hit" vs a "stoke".   If you read my original post, I already said that part of the problem is the verbiage used.   Neither "hit" nor "stroke" has a Webster's Definition that specific to golf, but according to the "experts" (PING being a prime example), an end shafted (toe drop) putter, is more suited to a swinging gate stroke.

[atlanta golfer]

I'm with "The Adam" ... go to a big store and pick out a bunch of putters that look interesting to you.  Spend a few hours, coming back another day if needed.  Keep weeding them down until you find the one that works best for you.  Go into the process with no preconceptions about what certain styles of putters are supposed to do.

[The Adam]

Break68, on 19 July 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

The Adam, on 18 July 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

First off, I think the advice the sales person gave you is unnecessary. Buy the putter you make the most putts with, end of story. Just pick out about 10 or 15 putters you're interested in that cover a broad spectrum of styles/brands/weights etc. Putt for about 2 hours at the store placing each putter in a head to head. Eventually you'll have 2 or 3 that you truly believe are just about the same. Try each of them in different lengths. Then you can get really nit picky and decide which of their differences means the most to you. Buy it in the most comfortable length for your posture and viola! no need to understand hit vs roll.

On a side note, obviously when you're dealing with people at golfsmith it's hit or miss because they're paid by the hour and most of that hour they're bored out of their mind. Many of them probably want to be golf pro's and so you end up being their guinea pig for giving advice. However, if you go to buy clubs and are looking for selection and professionalism with screens or driving ranges to test your clubs, Golfsmith is hard to beat. I'm absolutely in love with both Golfsmith's in the Austin area. One time I bought my wife a set of clubs for around $500 and the Manager just gave me 20% off without my asking. I also go in there all the time and hit balls on their monitor with my driver to see how things are going and they never bother me about not buying anything. You're going to have people who hate big name companies all over but if you don't ask for their advice then you most likely won't get it. Additionally, I'm not sure what golf mart or whatever the crazy Canadians   are talking about is like. But I'm pretty sure they don't hire ex PGA pro's for their 10 dollar an hour sales jobs. If you ask many of those kids what they think regarding which putter you should buy, you're very likely to get faulty advice there as well. That's going to be a common link with any big box store.

Oh and by the way, once I got a great tip regarding my driving from a Golfsmith employee. I take most things with a grain of salt when it's offered and not requested but sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask for opinions.

Hey The Adam, for the record GOLFTOWN > a Canadian company just bought Golfsmith.

hehe and for the record you crazy canadians was a friendly jab I'm aware of them purchasing Golfsmith, I've just never been to one. I was pointing to the fact that my idea of golf town wasn't based on experience but simply on assumptions as followed.

[The Adam]

BrianL99, on 19 July 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 18 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Who are these experts that distinguish between hitting and stroking?   First I've heard this...

By definition in a swinging gate stroke, the toe passes the heel of the putter.  Which I think in most people's mind, would more likely be considered a "hit" vs a "stoke".   If you read my original post, I already said that part of the problem is the verbiage used.   Neither "hit" nor "stroke" has a Webster's Definition that specific to golf, but according to the "experts" (PING being a prime example), an end shafted (toe drop) putter, is more suited to a swinging gate stroke.

I just wanted to point out that Gary Player spoke about "hitting" vs "stroking" today during coverage of the British Open. He was pointing to Bobby Locke whom he referred to as the greatest putter of all time. He said he had virtually no follow through and they were indicating that he had a stroke that "hit" at the ball. They also spoke about Tiger and claimed that earlier in his career he would push the putter at the hole after contact but that now he has more of a hitting stroke with a shorter follow through.(I might have this in reverse as far as earlier in his career vs later, I kind of turn my attention off when they start critiquing the greatest player to ever live imo) I'm not a proponent of this type of conversation but I did want to point out that even those who are deemed experts in the sport are aware of hitting vs stroking or a smoother stroke with an elongated follow through. They indicated that Brandt Snedeker* (excuse my spelling) also hit at the ball. Earlier in the week on Live from the Open they were discussing how a firmer grip and shorter "hitting" stroke would suit the British Open greens better because they were so slow.

Edited by The Adam, 19 July 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Break68]

The Adam, on 19 July 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Break68, on 19 July 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

The Adam, on 18 July 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

First off, I think the advice the sales person gave you is unnecessary. Buy the putter you make the most putts with, end of story. Just pick out about 10 or 15 putters you're interested in that cover a broad spectrum of styles/brands/weights etc. Putt for about 2 hours at the store placing each putter in a head to head. Eventually you'll have 2 or 3 that you truly believe are just about the same. Try each of them in different lengths. Then you can get really nit picky and decide which of their differences means the most to you. Buy it in the most comfortable length for your posture and viola! no need to understand hit vs roll.

On a side note, obviously when you're dealing with people at golfsmith it's hit or miss because they're paid by the hour and most of that hour they're bored out of their mind. Many of them probably want to be golf pro's and so you end up being their guinea pig for giving advice. However, if you go to buy clubs and are looking for selection and professionalism with screens or driving ranges to test your clubs, Golfsmith is hard to beat. I'm absolutely in love with both Golfsmith's in the Austin area. One time I bought my wife a set of clubs for around $500 and the Manager just gave me 20% off without my asking. I also go in there all the time and hit balls on their monitor with my driver to see how things are going and they never bother me about not buying anything. You're going to have people who hate big name companies all over but if you don't ask for their advice then you most likely won't get it. Additionally, I'm not sure what golf mart or whatever the crazy Canadians   are talking about is like. But I'm pretty sure they don't hire ex PGA pro's for their 10 dollar an hour sales jobs. If you ask many of those kids what they think regarding which putter you should buy, you're very likely to get faulty advice there as well. That's going to be a common link with any big box store.

Oh and by the way, once I got a great tip regarding my driving from a Golfsmith employee. I take most things with a grain of salt when it's offered and not requested but sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask for opinions.

Hey The Adam, for the record GOLFTOWN > a Canadian company just bought Golfsmith.

hehe and for the record you crazy canadians was a friendly jab I'm aware of them purchasing Golfsmith, I've just never been to one. I was pointing to the fact that my idea of golf town wasn't based on experience but simply on assumptions as followed.

um ok thanks, too much caffeine, LOL

[BigMike06]

The General, on 17 July 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

i wear ear plugs when I shop at golfsmith.

+1

[indyvai]

BrianL99, on 19 July 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 18 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Who are these experts that distinguish between hitting and stroking?   First I've heard this...

By definition in a swinging gate stroke, the toe passes the heel of the putter.  Which I think in most people's mind, would more likely be considered a "hit" vs a "stoke".   If you read my original post, I already said that part of the problem is the verbiage used.   Neither "hit" nor "stroke" has a Webster's Definition that specific to golf, but according to the "experts" (PING being a prime example), an end shafted (toe drop) putter, is more suited to a swinging gate stroke.

Ok... so just to clarify... the company Ping uses thus verbiage... we're not talking about any putting experts?

I think the analogy Player used makes sense, other than that it's nonsense.

[bubberdubber]

They're not far off. May not be the lingo you use but they are right.
Strong arc putters using face balance putters will pull left w misses. This is explained by when the door is closing (releasing) there is too much weight on the toe so not enough drag.
Vice versa is true
The straight back and through stroke ( if I may). Will be hampered by a toe heavy putter because making that stroke w all the toe weight will leave the face open on misses.
The on that gets me is the guy using big grips w toe weighted putters. The grip encourages no right hand and making the stroke on a line. So, one can easily get themselves into a mess going on these routes.
Golfsmith has a very nice putting board. There you'll stroke a couple and the sales person will show you the type of putter (weight dist wise) that's right for you. You may not like it but.......

[hebron1427]

You've got s guy who designs and makes putters chiming in on this thread and people are telling him that he's wrong. Nuts. I used to like this forum but this is getting to be too much.

Edited by hebron1427, 19 July 2012 - 10:37 PM.

[johnnythunders]

In bussiness as in life you get what you pay for. Golfsmith pays its salesman not much more than minimum wage. So the advice you get is usually related to what the salesman learns thru their training program. Or knows on their own.

[BrianL99]

Some folks who commented might want to watch this short video, which talks about the various putter designs and their tendencies.

http://secretinthedi...ign=Daily+Video

[hebron1427]

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Some folks who commented might want to watch this short video, which talks about the various putter designs and their tendencies.

http://secretinthedi...ign=Daily+Video

this guy either has no idea what he's talking about or has very poor communication skills.

Edited by hebron1427, 27 July 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[indyvai]

hebron1427, on 27 July 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Some folks who commented might want to watch this short video, which talks about the various putter designs and their tendencies.

http://secretinthedi...ign=Daily+Video

this guy either has no idea what he's talking about or has very poor communication skills.

My new favorite you tube video!  I think there's a little bit of both going on there.  A) He loves clean lines, so he'd like my putters... B) He talks about what your brain likes when you squeeze it!  C) They make Decaf...  D) Whoever thought that was educational should come over here so I can hit you in the head with a tack hammer... because...  E) I have to start making youtube videos...

[BrianL99]

indyvai, on 27 July 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

hebron1427, on 27 July 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Some folks who commented might want to watch this short video, which talks about the various putter designs and their tendencies.

http://secretinthedi...ign=Daily+Video

this guy either has no idea what he's talking about or has very poor communication skills.

My new favorite you tube video!  I think there's a little bit of both going on there.  A) He loves clean lines, so he'd like my putters... B) He talks about what your brain likes when you squeeze it!  C) They make Decaf...  D) Whoever thought that was educational should come over here so I can hit you in the head with a tack hammer... because...  E) I have to start making youtube videos...

He only happens to be one of the world's foremost experts on putting and works with numerous PGA Tour players ... & if I recall correctly, has a Masters Degree and a Doctorate.

I'll look forward to seeing your next putting video on YouTube.

[hebron1427]

indyvai, on 27 July 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

hebron1427, on 27 July 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Some folks who commented might want to watch this short video, which talks about the various putter designs and their tendencies.

http://secretinthedi...ign=Daily+Video

this guy either has no idea what he's talking about or has very poor communication skills.

My new favorite you tube video!  I think there's a little bit of both going on there.  A) He loves clean lines, so he'd like my putters... B) He talks about what your brain likes when you squeeze it!  C) They make Decaf...  D) Whoever thought that was educational should come over here so I can hit you in the head with a tack hammer... because...  E) I have to start making youtube videos...

i actually lol'd.

[indyvai]

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

He only happens to be one of the world's foremost experts on putting and works with numerous PGA Tour players ... & if I recall correctly, has a Masters Degree and a Doctorate.

I'll look forward to seeing your next putting video on YouTube.

If you don't search online for his videos... you'll never hear of him.  I've read through the putting zone a few times, and didn't find anything that hasn't been said or taught elsewhere.  The original poster linked it here as being informational, however it has nothing to do with this thread... hence... tack hammer!  I do thank the original linker because i have enjoyed the videos immensely... as as soon as i can get my hands on an omni-balanced putter... YouTube look out!

I find Pelz to be more credible statistically, easier to understand, and sane.  Watch the speed for touch video and try not to laugh.  The concept is physics, and it's there... the delivery... pure comedy!

[BrianL99]

indyvai, on 28 July 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

He only happens to be one of the world's foremost experts on putting and works with numerous PGA Tour players ... & if I recall correctly, has a Masters Degree and a Doctorate.

I'll look forward to seeing your next putting video on YouTube.

however it has nothing to do with this thread... hence... tack hammer!

If you recall, the thread originated from a discussion about  what kind of putter is appropriate for a given stroke.

Mangum coaches about half-dozen PGA Tour players, how many in your stable?

I'll be looking forward to your YouTube videos.

[hebron1427]

BrianL99, on 28 July 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

indyvai, on 28 July 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

He only happens to be one of the world's foremost experts on putting and works with numerous PGA Tour players ... & if I recall correctly, has a Masters Degree and a Doctorate.

I'll look forward to seeing your next putting video on YouTube.

however it has nothing to do with this thread... hence... tack hammer!

If you recall, the thread originated from a discussion about  what kind of putter is appropriate for a given stroke.

Mangum coaches about half-dozen PGA Tour players, how many in your stable?

I'll be looking forward to your YouTube videos.

this is one of the most misleading posts I've evere seen. Here's what he says about himself: http://www.puttingzone.com/geoff.html

he has a ba, ma, and JD. So he got an english degree, then figured he needed more school, then got a law degree, none of whichmakes him qualified to discuss putting. I have a mechanical engineering degree and a law degree. I'm literally more qualified to talk about putting than this guy. At leastive taken statics and dynamics and worked a mill.

Of his "notable students" the only one I've evere heard of is henrik stenson who couldn't sink a 6-footer ifyou told him he'd get a can of Crisco and an "anything goes" night with Beyonce if he made two out of 10. Seriously, this is nothing to brag about.

Edited by hebron1427, 28 July 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[BrianL99]

hebron1427, on 28 July 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

this is one of the most misleading posts I've evere seen. Here's what he says about himself: http://www.puttingzone.com/geoff.html

he has a ba, ma, and JD. So he got an english degree, then figured he needed more school, then got a law degree, none of whichmakes him qualified to discuss putting. I have a mechanical engineering degree and a law degree. I'm literally more qualified to talk about putting than this guy. At leastive taken statics and dynamics and worked a mill.

Of his "notable students" the only one I've evere heard of is henrik stenson who couldn't sink a 6-footer ifyou told him he'd get a can of Crisco and an "anything goes" night with Beyonce if he made two out of 10. Seriously, this is nothing to brag about.

This Henrik Stenson?

Over 100 Weeks in the World Top 10 and ranked as high as #4 in the world.  

Winner of the World Match Play Championship in 2007.  

Lead the 2012 Masters up until the 72nd Hole.  

Holed the putt that won the 2006 Ryder Cup for the Europeans.

When was your most famous putt?

[indyvai]

BrianL99, on 17 July 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Peter K., on 17 July 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

So I went in to my local Golfsmith today, to see if they have any black Scotty Selects in the demo area, and I hear this:

"People who like to hit their putts should use a heel-shafted putter, but those who like to put a smooth roll on it shoud use a center-shafted putter."

I never heard such a thing, but I sure don't know everything.

Anyone else?

Not the exact words I would use, but the sentiments expressed, are consistent with what most every putting expert says.

If most every putting expert says it... you should be able to name a few...

[indyvai]

BrianL99, on 18 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Tim Delgado, on 17 July 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Can't say I agree that arc-putters "hit" the ball more than SBST-putters.

Some of the smoothest strokes are arc/Utley-style putters.

According to the experts, in a swinging gate stroke, the toe passes the heel (the club releases) ... hit vs stroke.

If a SBST stroke was possible, the toe would never pass the heel.

So since a SBST stroke is not possible... then everyone hits their putts?

Edited by indyvai, 29 July 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[indyvai]

BrianL99, on 28 July 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

indyvai, on 28 July 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

He only happens to be one of the world's foremost experts on putting and works with numerous PGA Tour players ... & if I recall correctly, has a Masters Degree and a Doctorate.

I'll look forward to seeing your next putting video on YouTube.

however it has nothing to do with this thread... hence... tack hammer!

If you recall, the thread originated from a discussion about  what kind of putter is appropriate for a given stroke.

Mangum coaches about half-dozen PGA Tour players, how many in your stable?

I'll be looking forward to your YouTube videos.

I am neither a coach, guru, or one of the worlds leading expert on putting... sorry.

I have nothing against the guy and anyone who dedicates their lives to studying putting and teaching is great in my oppinion.  Just don't spread gospel you don't fully understand.  And if you don't find his videos funny... that's a whole different story.  Find another guru that kneels down over a hole and darts balls over the top trying to get them on the right line at the fastest speed where they physically can go in the hole.  Hilarious!

[indyvai]

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Some folks who commented might want to watch this short video, which talks about the various putter designs and their tendencies.

http://secretinthedi...ign=Daily+Video

Who's this Soulhound guy he refers to?  Classic!

That video basically explains what I believe which is that grip pressure negates the feel of the different balanced putters.  He also says that toe down putters make your hands move... I don't belive that.  How is that discussing what putters are appropriate for a given stroke?  As I said before... not a very informative... you missed the point too.

Edited by indyvai, 29 July 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[BrianL99]

indyvai, on 29 July 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Some folks who commented might want to watch this short video, which talks about the various putter designs and their tendencies.

http://secretinthedi...ign=Daily+Video

That video basically explains what I believe which is that grip pressure negates the feel of the different balanced putters.  He also says that toe down putters make your hands move... I don't belive that.  How is that discussing what putters are appropriate for a given stroke?  As I said before... not a very informative... you missed the point too.

"My thoughts after doing my research over the past few years is that the "science" behind the toe hang theory is actually perceived feel by the player using the putter.  Any putter can work with any stroke if it feels right.  I feel that I can use anything but a true heel shafted putter for my perceived SBST stroke.

I would bet money that a robot test would be identical regardless of the combination of weighting and stroke.  There's a good reason Pelz never touches upon toe hang in his uber scientific NASA type analysis..."

Pelz, Utley, Stockton, Mangum, Manzella, PING,  all seem to suggest (or vehemently claim) the same "facts" about heel-shafted/toe drop putters.

I happen to agree that robotic testing would likely show their "science" may be a bit sketchy, but I think their conclusions are sound ... for similar reasons that you suggest ... grip pressure/human involvement causes the anomaly.

Personally, I have a severe inside/out putting stroke, but putted with an Amazing Grace for a year and sunk everything in sight.

[hebron1427]

BrianL99, on 29 July 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

hebron1427, on 28 July 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

BrianL99, on 27 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

this is one of the most misleading posts I've evere seen. Here's what he says about himself: http://www.puttingzone.com/geoff.html

he has a ba, ma, and JD. So he got an english degree, then figured he needed more school, then got a law degree, none of whichmakes him qualified to discuss putting. I have a mechanical engineering degree and a law degree. I'm literally more qualified to talk about putting than this guy. At leastive taken statics and dynamics and worked a mill.

Of his "notable students" the only one I've evere heard of is henrik stenson who couldn't sink a 6-footer ifyou told him he'd get a can of Crisco and an "anything goes" night with Beyonce if he made two out of 10. Seriously, this is nothing to brag about.

This Henrik Stenson?

Over 100 Weeks in the World Top 10 and ranked as high as #4 in the world.  

Winner of the World Match Play Championship in 2007.  

Lead the 2012 Masters up until the 72nd Hole.  

Holed the putt that won the 2006 Ryder Cup for the Europeans.

When was your most famous putt?

That's the one.
Putting from Inside 5' 95.37% 157th
Putting from 5-10' 55.83% 86th
Putting from - 10-15' 25.29% 165th   
Putting from - 15-20' 20.37% 49th   
Putting from - 20-25' 13.89% 54th
Putting from - > 25' 7.75% 23rd
Putting from 5-15' 43.00% 141st
Putting from 15-25' 17.78% 37th
Putting from 3-5' 84.62% 141st


3-Putt Avoidance 3.65% 155th

http://www.pgatour.c...formance-stats/

imagine what he could be if he had a coach that taught him how to putt!

Edited by hebron1427, 29 July 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[indyvai]

BrianL99, on 29 July 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Pelz, Utley, Stockton, Mangum, Manzella, PING,  all seem to suggest (or vehemently claim) the same "facts" about heel-shafted/toe drop putters.

Please find me something that talks about arc = hit and SBST = stroke.  Naming people means squat.  I am not even sure what you are talking about when we're talking about "facts" regarding heel shafted putters.  The conversation is hit vs stroke, not heel shafts being suited to arcs and face balance being suited for SBST... which you say is impossible, so who would use one of those?

I don't think Pelz ever touches this subject at all as a matter of fact.  If it's not factual... he doesn't state it.  In fact his robot testing proves the grip pressure theory... he just doesn't talk about it... feel can't be qualified scientifically...

And if there's a video where Magnum talks about this... please point me there!  PLEASE!!!

[BrianL99]

indyvai, on 29 July 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

BrianL99, on 29 July 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Pelz, Utley, Stockton, Mangum, Manzella, PING,  all seem to suggest (or vehemently claim) the same "facts" about heel-shafted/toe drop putters.

Please find me something that talks about arc = hit and SBST = stroke.  Naming people means squat.  I am not even sure what you are talking about when we're talking about "facts" regarding heel shafted putters.  The conversation is hit vs stroke, not heel shafts being suited to arcs and face balance being suited for SBST... which you say is impossible, so who would use one of those?

I don't think Pelz ever touches this subject at all as a matter of fact.  If it's not factual... he doesn't state it.  In fact his robot testing proves the grip pressure theory... he just doesn't talk about it... feel can't be qualified scientifically...

And if there's a video where Magnum talks about this... please point me there!  PLEASE!!!

Whatever ... I'm done.

[inthefairway]

Regardless of what they say at Golfsmith, you use what ever works for you!!!!

[Ri_Redneck]

hebron1427, on 19 July 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

You've got s guy who designs and makes putters chiming in on this thread and people are telling him that he's wrong. Nuts. I used to like this forum but this is getting to be too much.

LMAO! Just what I was thinking.  I've heard those terms mentioned many times over my 40 yrs of playing this game.

BT

[rockinar]

Best way to shave strokes off your game is to not listen to anything anyone tells you inside a Golfsmith.