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Shaft Characteristics


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#1 Antnee94

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:13 PM

First I want to apologize if this question may seem stupid. I'm still educating myself on the fine tuning aspects of the game as I get close to a single digit handicap and started buying better equipment.

Here is my question:

Shafts with similar specs on torque, kick point, weight, etc. should deliver similar spin rates with the same head in a fairway wood & driver assuming the same person is putting his normal repetitive swing on the golf ball.

To me this seems like the answer should be yes but not sure.

If I used a Fujikura Rombax Type X 75S in my 3 wood and the Mitsubishi Ka'li specs are very close and similar, the spin rates should be in the ballpark +/- a few hundred? Correct?

I know the head has a lot to do with the spin rate as well which is why I'm asking the question as if it was the same head.

Please let me know in simplest terms. I apologize if this is a silly question.

Titleist 913 D2, D+
15/19 TM RBZ FW, Fujikura Rombax Type X
Adam Idea A12 Hybrid (21), D+ HY92
Titleist 714 AP2 5-PW, KBS C-Taper S+
Vokey Spin Mill, 50, 56 (bent to 55), 60
Scotty Cameron California Coranado, 33i

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#2 TomWishon

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 03:52 PM

View PostAntnee94, on 28 June 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:



Shafts with similar specs on torque, kick point, weight, etc. should deliver similar spin rates with the same head in a fairway wood & driver assuming the same person is putting his normal repetitive swing on the golf ball.

To me this seems like the answer should be yes but not sure.

If I used a Fujikura Rombax Type X 75S in my 3 wood and the Mitsubishi Ka'li specs are very close and similar, the spin rates should be in the ballpark +/- a few hundred? Correct?

I know the head has a lot to do with the spin rate as well which is why I'm asking the question as if it was the same head.

There are 5 key design parameters on the shaft that all would have to be the SAME on any other shaft for it to result in the same launch angle, same trajectory and same spin rate when installed in the same clubhead.  of course all of the assembly specs of the club have to be the same as well -  bottom of bore to ground dimension, length, swingweight, same tip trim if any on the two shafts.

Those 5 shaft design parameters that would have to be the same would be,  1) weight;  2) Overall stiffness design;  3) bend profile design (distribution of the stiffness over the length of the shaft);  4) torque;  5) weight distribution (balance point).

The one X factor in this that can always step up to cause shot differences will be the +/- tolerances for each of the 5 key shaft design parameters.  Buy a box of 100 of the same exact shaft and you WILL see frequent to occasional to infrequent differences that in the hands of a consistent repeating swing player will show up as shot shape and shot parameter differences.

TOM

#3 Shaftology

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostAntnee94, on 28 June 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

First I want to apologize if this question may seem stupid. I'm still educating myself on the fine tuning aspects of the game as I get close to a single digit handicap and started buying better equipment.

Here is my question:

Shafts with similar specs on torque, kick point, weight, etc. should deliver similar spin rates with the same head in a fairway wood & driver assuming the same person is putting his normal repetitive swing on the golf ball.

To me this seems like the answer should be yes but not sure.

If I used a Fujikura Rombax Type X 75S in my 3 wood and the Mitsubishi Ka'li specs are very close and similar, the spin rates should be in the ballpark +/- a few hundred? Correct?

I know the head has a lot to do with the spin rate as well which is why I'm asking the question as if it was the same head.

Please let me know in simplest terms. I apologize if this is a silly question.
Tom's response is right on in terms of what really makes one shaft different from the other.  In your case, the two shafts you are comparing are really quite different because of the things Tom mentions...bend profile, weight, etc.  The Kai'li is a lighter shaft with a softer mid and tip section so it will perform quite differently than the Rombax.  The only real way to compare is to try each shaft at your proper flex and weight in a particular head on a ball flight monitor.  That will truly tell the difference in performance statistics and, you will also tell the difference in feel.

#4 Antnee94

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:27 AM

Thank you both for your response.

Just so you know the type of player I am and why I'm asking, I am a +11 handi, trying to break single digits this year. I revamped my entire set and was fitted from Driver through Putter.  I started buying better equipment and am at the point I finally feel the difference. I'm in love with my irons (Mizuno JPX 800 Pro, KBS Tour shafts, X-Flex soft stepped 1x). My wedges are all Vokey's. I put the matching KBS shaft on my 50 degree gap. My 56 is bent 1 degree strong with a stiff KBS Tour. I wanted a softer feel.  And my 60 has the stock Vokey shaft since I rarely take full swings with that club.

Based on all my fitting numbers, I bought an Adams 9.5 degree Speedline Fast 12 LS (stiff flex), with the stock Fubuki Alpha. I was not a fan of the club even though my numbers were better in the fitting than my Titlest 910 D2 with the Aldila RIP Alpha 60 shaft (10.5, set up neutral). I eventually traded it back and got the Garmin S3 watch and put my old 910 D2 in the bag.

I've been taking lessons again to break the 10 barrier and have gained 15 yards on my driver. My swing speed varies between 102-105 mph. My normal distance is 250ish and my good hits go 270ish (a little less). I'm not lying, this is my realistic assessment of my game. I guess I’m not the normal 300+ hitter on these boards…don’t mean to poke fun, but let’s face it, a lot of people think they can beat Tiger on these boards :)

As far as my fairway woods (where my main problem is), I play a 3 & 5 wood. I was fitted into the Adams XTD. The toe weight broke and fell out on the 3. Apparently this is an issue with the 1st generation of heads.  They fitted me with the Rombax shaft I spoke about. I never really fell in love with the club unless I hit it dead center. When I did that, the ball went almost as far as my driver. But, I'm an 11 handi, I'm still inconsistent with my contact. I've shot two rounds in the high 70's this year (after having only one 79 more than three years ago).  At times, I've looked like a 25 handi and shot a few mid 90's. Others I looked like I would achieve my goal sooner rather than later.

The problem, I love the RBZ head and the forgiveness it has. I know that is a higher spin, high launch head, and might not be for me anymore.  But there is something about that head that gives me confidence off the tee and deck. I may give up 10 yards or more because I launch too high and spin the ball more than the XTD.  Unfortunately they are glued heads so I can't try out different shaft combos on them. I don't like the stock shaft at all (X-Con5), and the TP stock just seems too off for my swing (Rul 70 shaft). The X-Con7 should be more for me but only comes with the smaller tour head. That should be more forgiving than the XTD head but I’m set on the regular head right now.

Bottom line, I'm looking for a low spin, low launch shaft to counter balance the higher spin, high launch head. I know I can't have everything, forgiving head and low spin. They generally counter each other.  If you have a reco it would be greatly appreciated.

Right now, I think I'm just sticking that Rombax in the regular RBZ and hoping for the best. With a lot of luck it works out for me and I don't need to buy another 3 wood otherwise next year I'll go through the top of the bag fitting somewhere else and see what they can do. Chances are I will buy the new 913 D2 when they become available and get fitted for the right shaft. Or whatever TaylorMade's new version of the R11S will be. I'm very picky with my woods as you can see. I like the forgiveness but not the ballooning effect of the higher spin, high launch heads.

Can a different shaft counter balance the effect?

By the way, in my high handicap days I've always been a TaylorMade fan and have played each years Burner models since 07 or 08, my 1st fairways were the V-Steels).

Thank you again for your responses and if you have any other advice / shaft reco's.
Titleist 913 D2, D+
15/19 TM RBZ FW, Fujikura Rombax Type X
Adam Idea A12 Hybrid (21), D+ HY92
Titleist 714 AP2 5-PW, KBS C-Taper S+
Vokey Spin Mill, 50, 56 (bent to 55), 60
Scotty Cameron California Coranado, 33i

#5 Stuart G.

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:52 AM

I'm pretty close to you in swing stats and HC (little higher) although I don't like my FW's running out too much so I can control distance.

The stock FW shaft in the r11s (phenom 70) is pretty nice, especially for a stock shaft, I've heard some people report success using it in the rbz head and you can at least test the feel somewhat by trying it in the r11s (you might even like the head, I did and got that instead of the RBZ).    If you liked the rip alpha in your older driver, it (or the gamma) is a pretty good choice for low launch/spin shaft.  Although I read a lot here about people choosing the beta more often for FW's - not sure if that's low enough for your needs.


#6 Antnee94

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:46 PM

Thank you everyone for your response.

I went blind and put the Rombax in the regular RBZ head. I had a good weekend at the range with it and then hit two perfect bombs from the tee box with it. Those were the only two swings during my weekly round and I was thrilled. So far so good.

Next is figuring out what shaft to put in the 5 wood if I decide to go in that direction. Same situation, regular RBZ head, but the only difference is I want a little higher flight on my 5 wood to control the distance and at times have it land softer. (I wont say softly because it's a 5 wood for crying out loud).
Titleist 913 D2, D+
15/19 TM RBZ FW, Fujikura Rombax Type X
Adam Idea A12 Hybrid (21), D+ HY92
Titleist 714 AP2 5-PW, KBS C-Taper S+
Vokey Spin Mill, 50, 56 (bent to 55), 60
Scotty Cameron California Coranado, 33i




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