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Closed Face Drivers


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#1 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM

How do you deal with them?  This has really been the bane of my golf game.  I just have such a hard time lining typical drivers up.  I can't swing at it with the face not aiming down the target line, which leaves me two options, play it back in my stance or deloft the club.

How on earth does anyone hit these, let alone hit "up" on the ball and not get your hands in front when the shaft is coming off on an angle that reminds me more of a 3w, except the shaft is longer so it actually sets farther back in my stance.

Next driver is going to be a bit open, which is neutral as far as I'm concerned, I have no idea how they measure these things, but if you're supposed to put these clubs out on your left foot and hit up I think most of these heads are about 6 degrees too closed.


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#2 alexle92

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:55 PM

I naturally hook the ball right. I adjust my 910 D2 to most closed to compensate for my natural right hook.

#3 blink3665

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:14 AM

View Postalexle92, on 12 June 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

I naturally hook the ball right. I adjust my 910 D2 to most closed to compensate for my natural right hook.

Um.... Really?
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#4 Mschumacher

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:19 AM

Had the same problem.  Could not get off the tee reliably with a driver due to the closed face.  The adjustable drivers helped a lot and then finally found a used Nike VR Tour (non adjustable).  The open setup looks perfect to me.  Try your best to find an open face driver.

IMO the closed face makes slicers slice the ball even more.

#5 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 12:29 AM

ya I don't think any of that stuff is good for anything other than selling drivers at the launch monitor.


#6 rafal

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:39 AM

I tell you 20 years ago there were all these great drivers, easy to hit.  Now it's terrible.
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#7 thenovice

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 03:32 PM

I am restricting how much I spend on my clubs so I currently have a used Taylor Made burner 2007 non-TP and also a Ping i15 3 wood.

The burner has a closed face and the i15 has a slightly more open face.

I am wondering how much this affects my swing pratise.  I usually use the driver, take about 5 shots to get it straightened up.  Switch to the 3 wood and then immediately start fading the shot.  it takes another 5 shots to get the shot straightened up again.  Then if I were to go back to the driver I might hook or draw it.

Is this a silly way to learn? Am I stunting my practise with these two different clubs?  I am considering just selling my Burner and making sure any driver I buy in the future is open faced or at least neutral.

#8 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 03:39 PM

I think it's poison.
I"m on my way to a open driver, but till then I'm gonna let it lie a bit closed and try and play down the right side.  the problem is, my hands know the club is pionted down the left so I'm gonna risk getting double crossed, which is gonna make me look pretty stupid if I tell anyone it's because my driver is closed lol.

#9 TomWishon

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 11:59 AM

View PostWknd_Warrior, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

How do you deal with them?

How on earth does anyone hit these,

Next driver is going to be a bit open, which is neutral as far as I'm concerned, I have no idea how they measure these things, but if you're supposed to put these clubs out on your left foot and hit up I think most of these heads are about 6 degrees too closed.

Drivers with a closed face angle SHOULD CHIEFLY BE PLAYED BY GOLFERS WHO SLICE THE BALL.   The more the golfer slices the ball, the more the face angle should be closed to then compensate for the golfer's delivery of the face open to the ball to cause the slice in the first place.  For slicers, they do have to train themselves to just let the head sit on the ground so the face points to the hook side of the target - some closed face drivers can have an alignment mark on the top of the head that lines up straight to the target when the face is actually pointing to the hook side of the hole.  So the golfer then can focus on the alignment mark and not focus on the face.

From your post, I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds like you don't slice the ball and you happened to unknowingly buy a driver that had a closed face - either that or no one at the place you bought the driver told you any different.

Plain and simple, if a golfer does not slice the ball then they have no need to buy a driver with a closed face angle.

TOM

#10 glenametz

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:27 PM

My R11s has the ASP in the O+ setting, all else stock.  As someone who fights a pull-hook, the closed faces are really hard for me to keep straight as well.


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#11 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 01:31 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 14 June 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

View PostWknd_Warrior, on 12 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

How do you deal with them?

How on earth does anyone hit these,

Next driver is going to be a bit open, which is neutral as far as I'm concerned, I have no idea how they measure these things, but if you're supposed to put these clubs out on your left foot and hit up I think most of these heads are about 6 degrees too closed.

Drivers with a closed face angle SHOULD CHIEFLY BE PLAYED BY GOLFERS WHO SLICE THE BALL.   The more the golfer slices the ball, the more the face angle should be closed to then compensate for the golfer's delivery of the face open to the ball to cause the slice in the first place.  For slicers, they do have to train themselves to just let the head sit on the ground so the face points to the hook side of the target - some closed face drivers can have an alignment mark on the top of the head that lines up straight to the target when the face is actually pointing to the hook side of the hole.  So the golfer then can focus on the alignment mark and not focus on the face.

From your post, I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds like you don't slice the ball and you happened to unknowingly buy a driver that had a closed face - either that or no one at the place you bought the driver told you any different.

Plain and simple, if a golfer does not slice the ball then they have no need to buy a driver with a closed face angle.

TOM

All pretty much true, I doni't slice, at least not as a standard ball flight.

the first thing I do with a club when Iset it on the ground is point it at the target.  Not knowing these clubs point left has wasted hours of my time and caused me much frustration.  In fact, even the ones marked neutral are really a bit closed IMO, probably because they are neutral based on the old lie and ball position of shorter persimmons.

I've figur3d it out tho, play it just a touch back, and maybe open just a touch and make sure to swing nornally, works pretty good.

This is a sore spot for me cause when I was younger I was saddled with an old Wilson Gear Effect Persimmon, which was about 7 degrees closed (if you ask me) and inset.  I had no idea they made clubs this way, just thought there was something wrong with my setup.  I basically abandonned my tee game completely and focused on my irons.  I suppose in a way it was a good thing  <screwy face emoticon>

#12 dac

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:01 PM

closed face help those with a slice.  open face helps those with a hook.  clubs are set up to help those who need help.  get a driver that looks right to you.

#13 coops

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:08 PM

type this in to google:

ebay Adams 9015D


Buy a head and install your favoured shaft at 44 1/2" length and be happy for a lot less than any new alternative. And be longer. And way less hooky than ever before in your life.

#14 Redpro

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:12 PM

View Postcoops, on 14 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

type this in to google:

ebay Adams 9015D


Buy a head and install your favoured shaft at 44 1/2" length and be happy for a lot less than any new alternative. And be longer. And way less hooky than ever before in your life.

Agree. I have two 9015D heads, a 9.5 with a Fuji ZCom Six and a 10.5 with a UST V2 that I bag. Have not found better combinations for my swing. 86-88 mph. 7-iron 150 yards.

#15 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:14 PM

I just noticed my Alpha has a line on the crown through the emblem, presuimably for lining it up, and sure enough, it a couple degrees off from being perpendicular to the face.

Edited by Wknd_Warrior, 17 June 2012 - 10:14 PM.


#16 Rebel420

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:50 PM

I Lways fought a slice so naturally I got my R 11 and raised the loft a bit which of course closed the face.  Could not beat the slice.  Finally beat the slice but then the ball started ballooning when straight (2 out of 5 shots with the other two either being the nasty slice or a painful duck hook).  Out of frustration I lowered the lift, opening the face, now 8 out of 10 shots are almost perfect straight with a baby draw, and thn th errant slight fade or hard draw... Ball is rolling out more but launch angle still a bit steep and too much spun, but knowing I'm carrying 250-260yds, I feel a shaft change may bring that don't (currently r flex).    Point is, for me the closed face made me slice mor..dont know if it was my trying to square up causing me to hold back or what,  but I feel the closed face hurt my game

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#17 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:11 PM

It could be theororized once you hook a couple you start to compensate with your swing and end up developing a slice.

I think it's hard to swing at a closed club face as well, while it may help some, it runs the risk of throwing everything out of whack.  If you know what you are doing, great.  What bugs me is these things aren't labelled as such.  Most of the common clubs on the market are insidiously toed in and the only reason I can see is so it miraculously flies straighter than the competitors at the launch bay so you buy their club instead of someone elses.   Nobody cares what happens to your game as long as you spend your money, and why should they?

I saw an add over golftown today that read

"don't change your swing, change your driver"

This was really a sign of the times. While this alone is enough to make me not want to buy anything from that company ever again, what is really disgusting is the driver isn't going to change anything and everyone knows it except the guy plunking down the cash hoping his game gets better, which it won't.

What I'd love to see instead

"We build square clubs, if you slice, aim left"

Or how about a club labelled "hook machine", that would probably sell!

#18 Rebel420

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 06:45 AM

That "don't change your swing. Change your driver" line from Callaway never sat right with me as well.   I'll gladly admit that closed face neutral or open face work for their respective groups.  Adjusting the loft a degree or so work well also.  But the way that slogan comes across bothered me.  If they would have said "don't change to fit your driver, change your driver to fit you" would have taken the edge off.  

Obviously closed face helps more people than not, as that is how the trend is going, it bothers me that other options are not tried.   When it comes to weighting, physics would dictate toe-heavy would promote a draw, but it's heel heavy that worlds, because the brain tries to compensate.  I think it sometimes works the same with open/closed face
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#19 TomWishon

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:56 AM

View PostRebel420, on 18 June 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Obviously closed face helps more people than not, as that is how the trend is going, it bothers me that other options are not tried.   When it comes to weighting, physics would dictate toe-heavy would promote a draw, but it's heel heavy that worlds, because the brain tries to compensate.  I think it sometimes works the same with open/closed face

No amount of heel weighting can offer as much direct slice correction capability as can a closed face angle.  Remember what causes a slice - it is some combination of an outside in swing path and/or a mistake in delivery of the face that leaves the face open to some DEGREE.  A face angle change brings the clubface to the ball less open in DEGREES.  Hence the face angle change is a DEGREE FOR DEGREE reduction in the mistake that is causing the slice.

Heel weighting simply changes the center of gravity position in the clubhead to be a little more toward the heel side of the head.  That means when the golfer hits the ball in the center of the face, the CG is now a little on the heel side of the ball's impact position on the face.  This in turn causes the head to twist slightly to create a small amount of a DRAW TILT OF THE BACKSPIN.  But this is VERY slight and in no way does it even come close to the fade correction/fade offset of a face angle change.

So the science is well known among all who have worked seriously in clubhead design and clubhead performance.  Face angle is THE number one most influential way to reduce a slice.

TOM

#20 ball game

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:14 AM

Hey Tom,

Would holding a closed face driver open with your set up grip be the same as swinging an open faced driver?   Would an open or square face driver impact the ball differently than an opened (with grip set up) closed faced driver?

Thanks,

Ball Game


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#21 RocketScience

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:21 AM

I feel like some slicers have a bad mental reaction to a closed face despite the obvious physical benefits to a closed face for them.  (i.e. they change their swing because of a closed face)

Think about it like this: What swing path would a slicer take to get the face of a closed driver perpendicular to the swing path at impact? (normally a good thing with a square or open face)  Straight over the top, outside in.  He hits a few pulls left for a while, then starts to leave the face a little open at impact, holds off, whatever to compensate while leaving the swing path the same... super slice.  I know that sounds crazy... but I've seen it happen.

I feel like a square face and a high-torque shaft should be the most help an anti-slice club should give to prevent weird mental things like the above from happening. (maybe some offset)

#22 TomWishon

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:54 AM

View Postball game, on 18 June 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Hey Tom,

Would holding a closed face driver open with your set up grip be the same as swinging an open faced driver?   Would an open or square face driver impact the ball differently than an opened (with grip set up) closed faced driver?


No open or closed face driver performs the same for all golfers.  What determines the performance of ANY driver face angle is the golfer's normal swing delivery of the clubhead to the ball.  We golfers make all sorts of swing errors with respect to what is our swing path and what is our delivery of the face from our hand/arm rotation.  Because of all these many combinations of swing path and face delivery, we golfers can deliver the face to the ball in a ton of different positions which bring about all sorts of variations in direction and curve of the shot.

The whole purpose of using a driver or wood with a different face angle is to COUNTER ACT what we do in terms of delivery of the face to the ball from our swing path and face angle delivery in our swings.  

Thus when you give an open face angle driver head to a golfer who hooks the ball, their swing motion that causes the club to close now acts on the open face driver to bring it to impact LESS CLOSED than when the golfer used a driver that was not open.  And yes, when the hooker makes his swing move to shut the face, when he does that with an open face woodhead he will be reducing the loft on the face at the moment of impact so the shot may fly a little lower than what the static loft on that open face driver would make you think.

Conversely when you give a closed face angle driver head to a golfer who slices the ball, their swing motion that causes the club to open now acts on the closed face driver to bring it to impact LESS OPEN than when the golfer used a driver that was not closed.  And yes, when the slicer makes his swing move to open the face, when he does that with a closed face woodhead he will be increasing the loft on the face at the moment of impact so the shot may fly a little higher than what the static loft on that closed face driver would make you think.

In the end, you choose a driver with a face angle that is opposite to your normal direction of ball curvature and then you choose whatever loft is to be on that custom face angle driver head that achieves the right launch angle for YOUR clubhead speed and your angle of attack into the ball.  Do that and you get the best results without having to overthink this whole relationship between loft and face angle and our swing mistakes we make.

TOM

#23 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:56 AM

All the slicers I've seen the biggest problem is cutting across the ball, even if it starts out on the correct path it spins right.  IMO there's nothing that can be done to the club to stop this from happening.

I get that slogan now, they mean don't accomidate the club with your swing, our club can adjust to you, makes sense ot me now, I kind of read "Don't try and get better, just buy our clubs".   Poor choice of words, but only traditionlists like me who caren't buying their clubs are gonna care anyhow.  Actually I might end up with one of those lol, anyhow...

#24 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 07:58 PM

So I picked up a used 2010 Callaway ft tour today, something like that.  It's supposed to be a bit open.  Still sits a bit closed more than I'd like, but  a magnitude better than anything I've owned before.  I might decide it's just right, dunno yet.  I had the best range session since I was a teenager hitting old persimmon drivers and 2 woods.  Have to see what happens on the course.

I'm going to have to get therapy for all the time I've wasted trying to get my swing around hook faced drivers, all the while reading I'm supposed to tee the new clubs forward and hit up on the ball...equipment is a mine field these days.

#25 Wknd_Warrior

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 08:21 PM

Played a round with my first open faced driver today. I picked up a used FT Tour 9.5 xstiff.  The shaft is a bit too much for my swing, I only feel it starting to flex when a really smoke it.  It'll do for this year.  It plays a half inch longer than my old driver, I don't know how long it is, but around 45 would be my guess.

I swung like a** but had one of the most usable driving days in a while and came very close to tying my personel best at the local course.  I managed a couple drives to match or be close to my best on a few holes, and many lousy shots ended up in the "solid" range.   I used to have to choose between launching it too high or spinning it too much, playing the hook etc...but I hardly fiddled with the face at all.

I'm hoping to drop an easy 4+ strokes off my index :).

On a side note, the FT Tour makes this muted clunk sound that I didn't like at first but now think is pretty cool.





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